The Goldilocks Grind: World of Warships vs Others

[lloyd1701]

Back when the Missouri came out, I started buying regular eco signals and ground out the ship as part of my line grinding in 3 months for about $20 worth of Papa Papas. It was a tough grind but the MO was worth it.

That was then. In 2020 with every eco flag stacking I've gotten: Smaland, Hayate, Agir, 25% of the Ohio grind, 100% of the Slava grind, will get through Yolo Emilio grind, ground through all 4 CV lines starting from nothing at T8 at once during the Anniversary, more besides, have over 1.5M FXP and growing AND I'm pretty sure I've played a good deal less overall this year than I did in 2017 when the MO came out. 

Sea Lord Mountbatten just came out with a new 'hyper grind' vid on this:

Spoiler

 

 

I gotta agree with him that the grind in ships is 'Too Easy' ever since they came out with all eco stacking where beforehand you had to make hard choices on equipping eco or combat flags. It's also made it easy for them to do things like make the ARP Yamato its own $140 ship rather than a $32 permaflage.

OTOH as Mountbatten also points out he plays [edited] where even with premium everything the grind to one top tier thing is... just stupid.

And while I no longer play Hearthstone, I do watch streams and they just went from a stingy F2P model that players were complaining about for years but could get you most / all of the next expansion if you were diligent... to one that you either play super casually to earn the low hanging fruit and be satisfied with barely making a quarter or less of the currency needed to get to the next expansion OR you try to grind it at a pace that makes the PR Disaster look easy peasy... to still end up far short of the old system since instead of straight currency they clog the rewards track with tons of stuff you might not care a whit about.

==========

But while I would and have picked the Ships grind over [edited] / Hearthstone... the too easy nature of the grind is still too easy and has IMO, hurt the game by creating a massive Derpitz Effect and more frequent landslides at higher tiers since while before anyone could still convert FXP and buy credits to T10, the cost was extremely prohibitive compared to other things in the game like Premium Time / Ships and etc. that led to a slower, more even grind.

Unfortunately, with the 'all eco at once' / T9 Premiums / T10 Premiums for sale directly bridges crossed. I'm kinda at a loss for ideas on how WG could smooth out the grind to anything like it was back in the day. 

[Sventex]

18 minutes ago, lloyd1701 said:

Back when the Missouri came out, I started buying regular eco signals and ground out the ship as part of my line grinding in 3 months for about $20 worth of Papa Papas. It was a tough grind but the MO was worth it.

That was then. In 2020 with every eco flag stacking I've gotten: Smaland, Hayate, Agir, 25% of the Ohio grind, 100% of the Slava grind, will get through Yolo Emilio grind, ground through all 4 CV lines starting from nothing at T8 at once during the Anniversary, more besides, have over 1.5M FXP and growing AND I'm pretty sure I've played a good deal less overall this year than I did in 2017 when the MO came out. 

Sea Lord Mountbatten just came out with a new 'hyper grind' vid on this:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I gotta agree with him that the grind in ships is 'Too Easy' ever since they came out with all eco stacking where beforehand you had to make hard choices on equipping eco or combat flags. It's also made it easy for them to do things like make the ARP Yamato its own $140 ship rather than a $32 permaflage.

OTOH as Mountbatten also points out he plays [edited] where even with premium everything the grind to one top tier thing is... just stupid.

And while I no longer play Hearthstone, I do watch streams and they just went from a stingy F2P model that players were complaining about for years but could get you most / all of the next expansion if you were diligent... to one that you either play super casually to earn the low hanging fruit and be satisfied with barely making a quarter or less of the currency needed to get to the next expansion OR you try to grind it at a pace that makes the PR Disaster look easy peasy... to still end up far short of the old system since instead of straight currency they clog the rewards track with tons of stuff you might not care a whit about.

==========

But while I would and have picked the Ships grind over [edited] / Hearthstone... the too easy nature of the grind is still too easy and has IMO, hurt the game by creating a massive Derpitz Effect and more frequent landslides at higher tiers since while before anyone could still convert FXP and buy credits to T10, the cost was extremely prohibitive compared to other things in the game like Premium Time / Ships and etc. that led to a slower, more even grind.

Unfortunately, with the 'all eco at once' / T9 Premiums / T10 Premiums for sale directly bridges crossed. I'm kinda at a loss for ideas on how WG could smooth out the grind to anything like it was back in the day. 

I think the reason the grind has been made easier is that WGing practically has more premium ships than regular ships.  If players are playing with premium ships, they make little to no progress on the tech tree.  I myself have fallen into this trap, once I had the Missouri, I struggled to play the Iowa to finally unlock the Montana.  I only just finished that grind a few days ago, just so I could sell my Iowa.

[Edgecase]

50 minutes ago, lloyd1701 said:

the grind is still too easy and has IMO, hurt the game by creating a massive Derpitz Effect and more frequent landslides at higher tiers

Do you really see that many players under, say, 500 total games when playing at high tier? Because otherwise those players would be there anyway.

[groomsiebelle]

Side question...in Mountbatten's video around the 6:20 mark he seems to have his DD with 1/4 rudder set. It looks pretty stable there, I'm wondering if anyone knows how he is doing that (I suppose possible he is balancing the "A" and "D" keys but looks pretty stable for that).  Just curious to pick up a different trick.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, Sventex said:

I myself have fallen into this trap, once I had the Missouri, I struggled to play the Iowa to finally unlock the Montana.

Ditto here with Jean Bart and Richelieu. I've had Richelieu in my port since the very last day of the very first Christmas Snowflake event. What's that, coming up on two years now? Still not even halfway to Alsace yet, but in this case I really had no desire to go any higher than Tier VIII and the standstill on the Richie's grind is of lesser importance.

 

Watched the vid. Had to raise an eyebrow when he raised the matter of the number of signals you can now mount on your ship. In my opinion this charge is counterproductive, inflammatory and misleading. There is no difference between when you could mount eight vs. 21 insofar as the ship XP flags are concerned; the only difference is that now you can ALSO mount all the combat signals that help you survive and deal damage to get higher proportions of wins and the increased base XP.

In other words, there is a statistically higher chance of needing fewer XP flags and battles to do the same job.

Now that doesn't mean I disagree with him that the shortcut to Tier 10 (and the road to hell) is paved with gold, but he needs to be careful about how he uses his own results to generalize to the abilities of new players. He can tell us how lousy he is in destroyers until he's blue in the face, but his time (three years) spent in the game is still going to give him a lot of insights into how to drive them that a complete newcomer will lack.

 

What new players really need, and what I think WG has been providing them with all the Dockyard events and other stuff we've had this year, is a damn hard slap in the face to remind them that grinding one line or ship type exclusively straight to tier 10 is dangerously counterproductive and also shuts them out of completing lucrative events. That's the harsh lesson I learned three years ago in the North Cape event (Duke of York grind), less than three months into the game, and I'm very glad I learned it when I did. It's made everything else I've done since immeasurably easier.

[BitCrushed]

55 minutes ago, groomsiebelle said:

Side question...in Mountbatten's video around the 6:20 mark he seems to have his DD with 1/4 rudder set. It looks pretty stable there, I'm wondering if anyone knows how he is doing that (I suppose possible he is balancing the "A" and "D" keys but looks pretty stable for that).  Just curious to pick up a different trick.

Use Q and E keys.

[Sventex]

17 minutes ago, BitCrushed said:

Use Q and E keys.

How do you set the rudder to 1/4 with Q and E?

[DrHolmes52]

5 minutes ago, Sventex said:

How do you set the rudder to 1/4 with Q and E?

Tap Q or Tap E.  It locks the rudder to 1/4.

[groomsiebelle]

6 minutes ago, Sventex said:

How do you set the rudder to 1/4 with Q and E?

Exactly, That is 1/2 or full rudder, not 1/4 rudder

[groomsiebelle]

1 minute ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Tap Q or Tap E.  It locks the rudder to 1/4.

Ummm, no that goes to 1/2 or full.

[Sventex]

1 minute ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Tap Q or Tap E.  It locks the rudder to 1/4.

I have never been able to do that.  It either locks at 1/2 or hard over.  Is this a special mode that has to be toggled to get it to 1/4?

[BitCrushed]

8 minutes ago, Sventex said:

How do you set the rudder to 1/4 with Q and E?

Oh right, those keys are 1/2 increments. My mistake.

[DrHolmes52]

Just now, groomsiebelle said:

Ummm, no that goes to 1/2 or full.

 

1 minute ago, Sventex said:

I have never been able to do that.  It either locks at 1/2 or hard over.  Is this a special mode that has to be toggled to get it to 1/4?

Nevermind.  I thought it went to 1/4.

[groomsiebelle]

Well there must be a way to do it...

[shinytrashcan]

I'd say the rudder is a replay bug. Look at the minimap, he is going straight and not in any curve as far as I can tell.

[groomsiebelle]

10 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

I'd say the rudder is a replay bug. Look at the minimap, he is going straight and not in any curve as far as I can tell.

I think you solved it--thanks.  That was bugging me a bit.

[Skpstr]

46 minutes ago, groomsiebelle said:

Well there must be a way to do it...

I just get the proper tap-tap-tap rhythm on the A or D key.

Works well when you want to make a turn without slowing much, and have lots of room.

[Gabriel_LXIX]

I envy anyone who thinks WoWS has a hard grind

This is coming from almost 10 years as a WoT player....

[kyesac]

2 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Ditto here with Jean Bart and Richelieu. I've had Richelieu in my port since the very last day of the very first Christmas Snowflake event. What's that, coming up on two years now? Still not even halfway to Alsace yet, but in this case I really had no desire to go any higher than Tier VIII and the standstill on the Richie's grind is of lesser importance.

 

Watched the vid. Had to raise an eyebrow when he raised the matter of the number of signals you can now mount on your ship. In my opinion this charge is counterproductive, inflammatory and misleading. There is no difference between when you could mount eight vs. 21 insofar as the ship XP flags are concerned; the only difference is that now you can ALSO mount all the combat signals that help you survive and deal damage to get higher proportions of wins and the increased base XP.

In other words, there is a statistically higher chance of needing fewer XP flags and battles to do the same job.

Now that doesn't mean I disagree with him that the shortcut to Tier 10 (and the road to hell) is paved with gold, but he needs to be careful about how he uses his own results to generalize to the abilities of new players. He can tell us how lousy he is in destroyers until he's blue in the face, but his time (three years) spent in the game is still going to give him a lot of insights into how to drive them that a complete newcomer will lack.

 

What new players really need, and what I think WG has been providing them with all the Dockyard events and other stuff we've had this year, is a damn hard slap in the face to remind them that grinding one line or ship type exclusively straight to tier 10 is dangerously counterproductive and also shuts them out of completing lucrative events. That's the harsh lesson I learned three years ago in the North Cape event (Duke of York grind), less than three months into the game, and I'm very glad I learned it when I did. It's made everything else I've done since immeasurably easier.

I started grinding all of the lines, and got all of them up to about T5 - T6 level when I dropped CVs and DDs.  I concentrated all of my efforts on BBs, CAs, and CLs.  Even with that, I only got my first T10 in March 2019 (I started WoWs back in 2015, but took a 6 month break in 2014-2015).  I was lucky getting 1 - 2 new tech tree ships a month way back then.  Since 03/19, I have made T10 in all BBs, CAs, CLs and 2 IJN DDs.  Most (90% or so) have been in Coop. 

I usually equip all 5 economic flags on my high tier ships and maybe 1-2 on the mid tiers.  I really don't use many combat signals on my ships unless they need it (secondaries or speed for example).

I have a fair amount of premiums (20-30) but I pick and choose all of my high tiers tech and premium depending on what task I am trying to complete.  If nothing is left to be done, I grind the remaining DD lines. 

I do believe it is much easier to grind a line now than it use to be.  I think when I get all of my DD lines completed and finish the USN BBs, I will start using signals less. 

[TobTorp]

its quite interesting. most games i hear about (negatively) are because their grind is too hard. ours is to easy...

[Akeno017]

4 hours ago, lloyd1701 said:

by creating a massive Derpitz Effect and more frequent landslides at higher tiers

Things like the lowered citadels of the Iowa, initial british battleships, etc.

Greatly reduced the punishment for poor play and mistakes,  meaning worse skilled players make it up further the tiers and survive longer.

This is far more noticeable then the economy, as its unlikely these new players would have the flags or skill to take advantage of them.

[Sventex]

28 minutes ago, Akeno017 said:

Things like the lowered citadels of the Iowa

Greatly reduced the punishment for poor play and mistakes,  meaning worse skilled players make it up further the tiers and survive longer.

I think I disagree.  I remember when I first played the Iowa, I learned you could get completely erased in a single salvo if you showed broadside.  So of course I stopped showing broadside, but that just means that all the Iowas were bow-in the entire match and the gameplay completely static.  I can't really call that skilled gameplay if all you had to do was just keep the nose pointed at the enemy BBs.  It also completely erased all tactical options since the mere act of turning left or right was non-viable.

[Akeno017]

3 minutes ago, Sventex said:

  I can't really call that skilled gameplay if all you had to do was just keep the nose pointed at the enemy BBs.

The skill was all about learning how and when to turn out, bow-in was a mistake because you cant quickly get out.

Angling away or towards  your opponent while going 34knts was the better way whenever possible, making you a much harder target and the agility allowed you to potentially move into positions to get good shots into others or slip away into concealment to re-position.

I'm not going to say it wasn't difficult, a high skill floor or that the USN BBs wernt underperforming, but I do believe that the lowering of the citadels was the wrong way to make this change. Personally I would've increased the mobility of the ships to allow them to better protect that vulnerability, rather then simply make it RNG.

[xHeavy]

5 hours ago, groomsiebelle said:

Side question...in Mountbatten's video around the 6:20 mark he seems to have his DD with 1/4 rudder set. It looks pretty stable there, I'm wondering if anyone knows how he is doing that (I suppose possible he is balancing the "A" and "D" keys but looks pretty stable for that).  Just curious to pick up a different trick.

The little bit of rudder preserves the speed.

Some ships like the Pommern, if you applied full rudder your speed falls from about 30 knots all the way down to 22 knots and leaned way over. By the time you come out of that and work back up to 30 knots again the game is over.

In DD, its not much rudder needed. Sometimes there are threading a needle through two tiny rocks with a little water in between rather than drive around one of them for 30 minutes to reach the objective circle. A little bit of rudder does it over a minute or so and stay close to top speed which you probably need to do anyway with shells inbound.

In a DD when you are detected at 40 knots straight ahead, you count to 4 then press 1/4 rudder LIGHTLY a second at a time three times. You would have side stepped enough so that the Cruiser and esepecially BB rounds will fall into the water next to where you would have been if you went straight. Repeating the zig and zag gently 4 seconds apart pretty much makes all the incoiming fire miss you. And gives your AA guns a chance to work on the planes detecting you.