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ZeroCoolant

Double CV games

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Recency bias here...but here it goes anyways.  TL;DR; double-CV games end the same way for every player other than the CVs.  By the time you get down to ~5 v ~5 with double CVs the other players might as well tab out and get something to eat.  There are no believable plays to make and no counters to being found and focused.  In the end it is down to luck and  which CV pair is best that round.  If you're not a CV in that situation you can mash the keys all you want, but the end is coming.  This is made even worse at lower tiers where AA is not worth mentioning, and maneuvering for capital ships is a planned event.

Some counter arguments I can imagine and here are my pre-canned responses.

1.  Play CVs so that you can counter them.  Answer:  I will not play or allocate time to something I wish to see die.  Any usage encourages WG to spend more time on CVs.  I'd rather they see my idle Hosho and know that I did not enjoy being on either end of it.  Also, Twitch and YouTube have plenty of content to study CV tactics.

2.  Similar things can be said about other ship classes.  Answer:  There are known counters to other ship classes and adequate room to maneuver to at least hope of remaining undetected until the right moment.  There is zero hope of remaining relevant and undetected against CVs.

3.  You're an anti-CV troll, plz die, kthnxbye.  Answer:  I'm against any class where the only enjoyment is restricted to one side.  I do not even enjoy hunting them down and seeing them disappear from the surface at the end of the game.  I am simply tired and angry of dealing with something that is playing by completely different rules.  The things are ammunition and fuel dumps...and they can't detonate?  Can't even be bothered to run the detonation flag?  Or maybe invest in the necessary upgrade?  As you can see I have much sympathy for the plights of CVs in WoWs.

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Well, im not fan of the "nerf cv" mostly because i think they are fine right now (without the absurd incoming change in the rocket planes) but i recognize there are 2 main issues in a double cv game in low tier
-Weak or no AA in ships of tier 4/5
-No fighter consumable

In high tiers (6 and above) the only issue i found is the amount of fighters consumable is too low. It should be doubled per squadron at least. Well, MM has is own thing, since a T6 AA isnt made to damage T8 planes and viceversa, a T6 cv would struggle in a T8 match. Other than this, is just people who doesnt want to adapt and rush with a shima or other low aa ship expecting to shoot a full FDR squadron alone.

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My wish from the beginning of the CV rework was for low tier CVs have the ability to protect their (zero-AA ability) teammates with fighter consumable.

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Single cv games ... fine. Okay. Whatever ... it won’t be fun but okay. Double CV is just awful. I generally yolo and get it over with quick. If you make it to the end, like you said; you’re just going to die by CV no matter what. 
 

I’ll say it again, single CV games are tolerable. CV are only over powered for the one ship at a time they can pick on, and in games with 3 or 4 DDs they can be really useful in (hopefully) spotting and anti DD duty. Double CV games are misery. 

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There should never, NEVER be 4 carriers in a match. Period.

Either make AA great agai for tiers 3 to 6, or stop letting carriers attack with near impunity. 

Most tier 3 ships have no AA.

Most tier 4 ships have barely enough AA to produce 1 flack burst.

The key selling point of the Texas was it's no fly zone.....

Now a joke of an AA ship.

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1 hour ago, Nabucodonosor21 said:

Well, im not fan of the "nerf cv" mostly because i think they are fine right now (without the absurd incoming change in the rocket planes) but i recognize there are 2 main issues in a double cv game in low tier
-Weak or no AA in ships of tier 4/5
-No fighter consumable

In high tiers (6 and above) the only issue i found is the amount of fighters consumable is too low. It should be doubled per squadron at least. Well, MM has is own thing, since a T6 AA isnt made to damage T8 planes and viceversa, a T6 cv would struggle in a T8 match. Other than this, is just people who doesnt want to adapt and rush with a shima or other low aa ship expecting to shoot a full FDR squadron alone.

I'm not calling for a CV nerf.  I'm hoping to discover (through conversation) some mechanic that would allow the script for the scenario above to be more interesting.  As a straw-man proposal:  should spotting work differently or should loiter time be restricted?  The loiter time is specifically a problem in late-game. Early on a DD can smoke up and sit.  The CV driver will go on to find other useful targets.  In late game, smoke is not a defense at all.  The CV driver can stay overhead indefinitely and the DD driver has no chance of escaping unseen or undamaged.  Maybe each flight has a maximum flight time of two or three minutes and then it must return damaged or not back to the CV?

Another idea:  maybe there can be critical damage to an aircraft formation (e.g. flight leader shot down) that makes its attacks less precise or aborts them, forcing a go-around.  Current system feels very locked in.  A ship can have its rudder damaged, but a flight of planes is on rails until it ceases to exist.

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1 hour ago, Ace_04 said:

My wish from the beginning of the CV rework was for low tier CVs have the ability to protect their (zero-AA ability) teammates with fighter consumable.

That would be very welcome and time-bound which at least means there is a counter play possible.

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21 minutes ago, ZeroCoolant said:

I'm not calling for a CV nerf.  I'm hoping to discover (through conversation) some mechanic that would allow the script for the scenario above to be more interesting.  As a straw-man proposal:  should spotting work differently or should loiter time be restricted?  The loiter time is specifically a problem in late-game. Early on a DD can smoke up and sit.  The CV driver will go on to find other useful targets.  In late game, smoke is not a defense at all.  The CV driver can stay overhead indefinitely and the DD driver has no chance of escaping unseen or undamaged.  Maybe each flight has a maximum flight time of two or three minutes and then it must return damaged or not back to the CV?

Another idea:  maybe there can be critical damage to an aircraft formation (e.g. flight leader shot down) that makes its attacks less precise or aborts them, forcing a go-around.  Current system feels very locked in.  A ship can have its rudder damaged, but a flight of planes is on rails until it ceases to exist.

Asking for a way to fully stop a cv attack its calling for a nerf. In the second part of this post im quoting, you ask for some kind of mechanic to abort the attack. The currently system work as it works for every bb, cl and dd: you can shoot at the enemy (planes with the cv) and if the land in the rigth area and are the right type (rocket for dds, torpedo for bbs, ap for cl, etc.) they will make a huge amount of damage. However, cvs have 2 additional issue: the fact they have limited ammo (no, even if the regeneration never stops theres no way to regenerate more than 20 min of game so isnt unlimited even if some biased people still claim it is) and the fact attacks could be negated. 

For the first one, theres not much to say: in every run you lost planes and usually unless you are very good with the drops you lost them faster than you regenerate them. But the second is the part were the playerbase has the problem. Theres a lot of ships with high AA and acces to DFAA consumable. Even so, they ask for every single ship to be able to shoot down up to 12 planes coming at you, negating the cv attack. This is ridiculous, as this should be only reacheble when players are close each other, so the continued damage plus flakk make the cv either loss all the squadron or finish only one run to lost all planes. Is the last part where the real problem is (outside of tier 4, i think aa is too weak in tier 4), the game reward you for playing alone and this goes in the oposite way in how you should play against a cv.

Read post wich complains about cvs and you will always find the same: dds who claim they cant capture (even trough the game never states points should be captured in the first minutes of the match), cls who says ap bomber are [edited] and do too much damage (but they stay still behind islands spamming HE) and BB who claims aa is useless and cannot stop the torpedo bomber (yet they sail alone or in terrible aa bbs, and far away from the teams AA ships).

After all the nerf since the reworks, CVs from tier 6,8 and 10 are fine. They just need more fighter consumable. Tier 4 needs work in the aa and put the fighter consumable (never undestood why wg took it away).

People who complains otherwise (ie i cant capture, im spotted all the time, etc.) its people who doesnt want to adapt to play against cvs. Ask them if the play dd and face a full russian cl line in the reds if they rush to cap...most of them will say no...so why they change their way of play by heavy radar reds and not for cvs?

I think if we ask to get back the odd cv tiers, things should improve since it would be less T8 cv against T6 ships and more T6 and T7 cvs against them. T7 isnt too fair, but still better than a T8 planes coming at your T6 AA.

Edited by Nabucodonosor21

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2 hours ago, ZeroCoolant said:

3.  You're an anti-CV troll, plz die, kthnxbye.  Answer:  I'm against any class where the only enjoyment is restricted to one side.  I do not even enjoy hunting them down and seeing them disappear from the surface at the end of the game.  I am simply tired and angry of dealing with something that is playing by completely different rules.  The things are ammunition and fuel dumps...and they can't detonate?  Can't even be bothered to run the detonation flag?  Or maybe invest in the necessary upgrade?  As you can see I have much sympathy for the plights of CVs in WoWs.

A couple of thoughts.

a. If there was any reality (and BTW, I might be wrong in this thought, so feel free to correct me), CVs would be at pretty extreme risk of detonation.  OTOH, my thinking on this may be reflecting the poor ammo handling of the IJN CVs at Midway where they were in such a rush to rearm their planes that they left unloaded ammo in the hanger deck while loading the plane for an anti CV strike, which ended up being a big part of their demise when that ammo ended up blowing up in the secondary explosions from the initial dive bomb explosions.  I don't happen  to recall any USN CVs being sunk for this reason.  Oh, they still took damage from the regular bombs and torpedoes that struck them, but I don't recall any secondary explosions due to ammo just laying around the hanger deck.

b. A different idea could be that perhaps carriers should have a greater risk of being citadelled (due to cits sitting higher in the water).

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20 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

There should never, NEVER be 4 carriers in a match. Period.

Either make AA great agai for tiers 3 to 6, or stop letting carriers attack with near impunity. 

Most tier 3 ships have no AA.

Most tier 4 ships have barely enough AA to produce 1 flack burst.

The key selling point of the Texas was it's no fly zone.....

Now a joke of an AA ship.

I have to agree with the above, 4 CV's in a match is just over kill. It has been my experience in most double CV matches I encounter at a tier 5-6 it is ALWAYS one sided when it comes to the CV's you'll end up with either 2 newer players on one team and 2 decent or better than average cv players on the other.


Personally I'd like to see the AA bumped up and not even just the lower tier ships but the higher ones as well. 
For example...the Hindenburg used to chew aircraft up then they changed the AA from 6km to a max of 5.2km...But yet you give the USSR ships like the Perto 6.6km AA? Seems to look like a little bit of biased there in my opinion.

Or as above the Texas was completely neutered when it comes to AA which defeats the purpose in my opinion of even running that ship anymore. 

Even when I play CV if I am able to annihilate a cruiser or a DD with in the first 3 minutes of a game and hardly lose any aircraft to said particular vessel ...that's a bit much.

Just my .02 

Edited by Gummby_

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2 hours ago, Gummby_ said:

 

I have to agree with the above, 4 CV's in a match is just over kill. It has been my experience in most double CV matches I encounter at a tier 5-6 it is ALWAYS one sided when it comes to the CV's you'll end up with either 2 newer players on one team and 2 decent or better than average cv players on the other.


Personally I'd like to see the AA bumped up and not even just the lower tier ships but the higher ones as well. 
For example...the Hindenburg used to chew aircraft up then they changed the AA from 6km to a max of 5.2km...But yet you give the USSR ships like the Perto 6.6km AA? Seems to look like a little bit of biased there in my opinion.

Or as above the Texas was completely neutered when it comes to AA which defeats the purpose in my opinion of even running that ship anymore. 

Even when I play CV if I am able to annihilate a cruiser or a DD with in the first 3 minutes of a game and hardly lose any aircraft to said particular vessel ...that's a bit much.

Just my .02 

#MAKEAAGREATAGAIN

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