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Karandar

Our Clan thoughts post Clan Battle Season

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- We are not an extremely competitive clan, but work hard to improve & enjoy competitive. Played about 240 games between Alpha/Bravo & Hit Storm league with both teams and had around a 55% Win rate. Several of us maxxed our Storm League rewards. Limiting our progress this season was real life events and we could use more EST players in the clan to take full advantage of the time slot. 

- The 14km visibility Storm mechanic did stop the 4 Venezia teams of previous seasons, However, it did promote many teams made up of 3-4 Petro's, and along with excessive plane spotting eliminated EVERY light cruiser and several thinner skinned BB's from being used this clan season. Being forced to play inside 14km vs tanky Petro with her very strong AP rounds is suicide (Petro AP rounds should get slightly reduced pen angles to help better balance that ship.)  Only the heaviest cruisers were viable - most of us strongly dislike the Storm mechanic,  perhaps if it was only seen 2-3 times in 10 matches would be more enjoyable than the 70% or so we saw this season.

 - We are a CV friendly clan with capable CV captains and have no desire to see CV's removed from the game. We tried varieties of ships, even light cruisers and 2 x BB's early in the season, but settled on using very heavy cruisers, particularly using many petro and Puerto Rico,  along with MVR, or Hak if we did not have an MVR captain.  This make up provided the best success for our clan - and apparently other clans also as this was what we faced in nearly every team. We all agree including our CV captains, besides playing together with friends, this was not a fun season. Play was repetitive, predictable and dull. 

The influence of the CV is far too strong in smaller competitive battles like 7v7 Clan. Too much spotting on the smaller clan battles maps especially means No Flanking, no ambushes, no surprises. Very little enjoyment with the cv all seeing eye


- We ultimately fully specced modules and skills to maximize AA effectiveness, which reduced our anti surface ship ability but provided some relief vs weaker enemy CV captains, and we always ran 2 or more ships near each other to stack AA and still the MVR in particular, but also Hak with AP bombs, and also FDR with its invincible broken planes have little counter. They just hit for 20-30k damage per drop and the extremely common AP citadel hits being mostly non repairable is a broken mechanic that is demoralizing and just not enjoyable. Veteran CV captains are the norm in clan battles, and there is no dodging them. Ships like Moskva  were only played if that was the best a player had because they are far too vulnerable to Aircraft AP citadel damage rockets and bombs.

- We concluded to be welcomed into future clan battles, serious changes need to be made with  CV current state of interaction with surface ships: Not asking for CV damage nerfs - just interaction changes. 


- Spotting from planes. Should be mini map only for the CV team mates. This would prevent the 'piling on' of damage by the entire enemy team that is so prevalent in coordinated clan battles. It would also make tactics like flanking a Little more viable.


- If mini map only spotting is not an acceptable change then WG MUST change spotting to being like radar with a delay before the CV aircraft team mates see the target to allow the target some precious time to get into a more defensive posture. 
- WG  should remove spotting ability completely from fighters. Only spotter plane and the main squadrons spot. The excessive spotting added from fighters ruin the play experience for other ships. 


- CV’s should be like ALL other ships including the old CV’s – they need a “load period” in the beginning of the match 20-30 seconds before being able to launch their planes -  This would allow time to more safely get ships closer to cover.


- ### Aircraft AP citadel damage MUST be made far more repairable or NOT citadel damage at all – Repairable pens perhaps. It is currently overwhelming broken powerful. We saw far too many Single drops take 50% of a cruisers health, most non repairable. That is unacceptable, demoralizing and absolutely no fun. There simply is NO counter. Maneuvering doesn't help vs the veteran CV captains that we see frequently in clan battles. (Try dodge the plane in front of a Petro and see what happens.) We have CV captains who can do this frequently to targets.  THIS alone is why you saw no Des Moines in this season. These changes would allow more players to consider taking light cruisers and destroyers other than Halland/Smalland – something we NEVER see right now.

- DFAA and defensive Fighters SHOULD get the additional dispersion effects they used to have on the attacking squadrons. This would provide some brief periods of reduced damage to allow some much needed  time to repair between relentless air attacks. 
 

Other thoughts: 

- Regarding match making. We faced the same clans many times this season, and faced a surprising # of clans from higher leagues this season. Some MM improvements would be welcomed.

-The changes to the rewards system last season and this one are terrible. Effectively requiring 3x the games played to earn rewards in each league was a very poor change from past seasons and our clan had several players refuse to play clan battles for this reason alone.

-No captain skill respec was also poorly received - the captain spec build for clan battles is dramatically different from random battles - ESPECIALLY with CV's being included with the tighter maps and 7v7 - Respecs should be brought back with each new clan season.

WG has some serious room for improvement here - It is telling that KOTS and the recent Sponsored clan battles do not have Carriers. CV's simply are not balanced for clan battles as is. Some of the changes above would go a long way to improving quality of life/play in Clan and Random battles. Hopefully we see some meaningful spotting changes and a fix for the existing broken aircraft AP Citadel damage system we have today. 

Also - How about announcing future clan battles will alternate - one with CV,  the next without so we see more ship variety used. I think that would be very much welcomed by all.  

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I was about to make a post about the CB season that just ended, but you covered it very well.

In a nutshell, CVs are broken for this mode and MVR and FDR are even more broken beyond that.... Far worse than Haku ever was two seasons ago.  

The cyclone mode did NOTHING to mitigate cv spotting and only served to make certain ships randomly unviable such as Nevsky, Yoshino, or Hindy or anything that needs range to survive.

 

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If next season is tier 8 I wonder if CVs will still be just as broken in that case?

....on second thought..  it would probably be worse since most cruisers at that tier don't have a heal.

 

 

Edited by YouSatInGum

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Cv's led to stale tactics and reduced the options a team has. But the biggest difference was the skill gap between those truly skilled carrier players and those that are merely average. The CV rework was supposed to DECREASE the skill gap and make CV's more attractive to a wider base of players. All it REALLY accomplished was to create another small group of elite players that have an atrocious advantage when they play. There is absolutely no defense against this special class of player.

During clan battles, it was easy to see, within the first two minutes, what class of CV player was on the other side. Against the average CV player, we more than held our own, but if we were up against a really skilled player, it got really ugly, really fast.

In general, CVs did not improve the player experience in clan battles for our clan.

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3 minutes ago, mushmouthmorton said:

Cv's led to stale tactics and reduced the options a team has. But the biggest difference was the skill gap between those truly skilled carrier players and those that are merely average. The CV rework was supposed to DECREASE the skill gap and make CV's more attractive to a wider base of players. All it REALLY accomplished was to create another small group of elite players that have an atrocious advantage when they play. There is absolutely no defense against this special class of player.

During clan battles, it was easy to see, within the first two minutes, what class of CV player was on the other side. Against the average CV player, we more than held our own, but if we were up against a really skilled player, it got really ugly, really fast.

In general, CVs did not improve the player experience in clan battles for our clan.

I couldn't Agree more.  

I played CV a fair bit pre rework - didn't care for the rework style personally, or the effective beta test constant changes , so only recently decided to attempt to learn CV's and from that, along with discussions with the best Cv players in my clan and youtube video's - The skill gap between the old system and the new is massively larger today than in past. Skilled veteran CV players are still hitting you 15 minutes later with near full squads while mid level captains are lucky to have 4-5 planes that can be more easily countered. 

While the old GZ was the most broken ship in the game capable of single drop destroying a Bismark, now it takes 2-3 strikes from an MVR or Hak to nuke a moskva or Des moines - even battleships - i took several 25k+ drops with stacked aa  / fighter support - the defaa and fighter skills are currently a joke.  

one of our cv captains got 6 citadels or maybe 7? on a stalingrad with his MVR rocket planes - it was DEVASTATING!  Our CV captain actually felt sorry for the Stalingrad - it is just not right - and our MVR skipper doesn;t have that many games in it yet - in his own words, he has much to learn yet 

Changes have to happen to reduce the anger and animosity - AND to bring some fun back into clan battles - heck the whole game. 

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1 minute ago, Karandar said:

Changes have to happen to reduce the anger and animosity - AND to bring some fun back into clan battles - heck the whole game. 

I am and have tried to bring this CV question to a head... today's post is a good example, and your post(s) is friggin' brilliant.  It frames the situation well.

I do not understand WG.

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I really dont find carriers that op. when played vs them correctly. this is clan battles. i did not have an ally near me when i started getting focused by the FDR, and he barely did any thing do me. where as i was reking his planes. 100k plane damage.  yes more ships around you to share AA does make it stronger. but the way everyone talks. they think 1-2 ships should be able to 100% shut down another ship from doing anything.

goliath cb vs fder.png

goliath cb vs fdr.png

20201114_194152_PBSC210-Goliath_51_Greece (2).wowsreplay

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Nice summary @Karandar.

We found similar observations as you.  We are also Storm and didnt have a strong CV player in the clan.
When we managed to Mercenary in a solid CV player it made a massive difference to the team and we won the majority of our games against both 2BB and BB/CV teams.
With an average CV player we struggled and were better off running 2 BBs.
 

IMHO, one ship (CV),  and the skill level of its player, should not be able to influence the outcome of a game as strongly as it does in the case of CVs.

WG will not admit they have this wrong, however, the T6 Cb season was a disaster, as was this.
I am preparing myself for whatever combination they come up with next to try and get CVs to work in CBs, short of removing them until they are balanced more, i dread to think what will be tried next.

Edited by WildWitch
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4 minutes ago, WildWitch said:

Nice summary @Karandar.

We found similar observations as you.  We are also Storm and didnt have a strong CV player in the clan.
When we managed to Mercenary in a solid CV player it made a massive difference to the team and we won the majority of our games against both 2BB and BB/CV teams.
With an average CV player we struggled and were better off running 2 BBs.
 

IMHO, one ship (CV),  and the skill level of its player, should not be able to influence the outcome of a game as strongly as it does in the case of CVs.

WG will not admit they have this wrong, however, the T6 Cb season was a disaster, as was this.
I am preparing myself for whatever combination they come up with next to try and get CVs to work in CBs, short of removing them until they are balanced more, i dread to think what will be tried next.

have you  never seen a BB dev strike a cruiser at the start of a battle. i would call that strongly influencing the outcome of a battle by  alot

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8 minutes ago, Jamesalot_ET said:

have you  never seen a BB dev strike a cruiser at the start of a battle. i would call that strongly influencing the outcome of a battle by  alot

Of course i have, I have also seen DDs erase BBs early on etc etc. 
But does that happen 'every' game that they play, as does the spotting etc of the CV ?

The skill gap between one DD/CA/CL/BB player in a Clan Battle is not as big a factor in the outcome of a game as the skill gap between CV players.

I am not screaming to get CVs removed, but if you think they are as equal as all the other other boats as to the outcome of the match then I would love to know what you have been playing for the last few months.

 

Edited by WildWitch

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We were disappointed  that a team was at an immediate disadvantage without an MVR. To us it felt scummy because by now multiple members have experienced successive seasons where you iether had a ship or you didnt. it was disappointing to see the pattern continue with MVR. I think WG has a real problem.  

as we approached typhoon, Enthusiasm starting to drop as team after team fought exactly with the same ships. 2 petro, 2 goliaths. MVR, Ohio/montana, halland/smalland.

but,@Karandarthe worst thing we saw was the "backed in tanking" meta- this became completely out of control. as you reach typhoon, all ships on all sides made a "j turn" and fought each other stern in. this very viable strategy removed the fun of a naval battle, and lowered the experience to a Meh video game.  

Edited by skillztowin
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The problem is everyone needs to practice to play vs carriers. they really are not that big of a factor. yes i can agree the spotting system should be changed a bit. my idea i have put out there before, carriers spotting a ship works like a cy clone. the tier of the cv depends on the spotting range. but for a T10 cv spots a ship, allies ships within X range are able to target and shot the ship. everyone else can only see the ship on the mini map. DD 12km, CA, 14km, super CA, 16km, BB 18km. that would fix alot of problems besides that cvs do less average damage then an equally skilled  cruiser player. thier spotting is limited. they can either spot or deal damage not both if they want to keep targets spotted for a long time. This last season proved that  you dont have to bring a CV to win the match. we won using both CV and double BB, as well as got our butts handed to by teams using CV and double BB. I wouldnt mind knowing the stats for how many battles won for the server using a CV/BB and a double BB.

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4 minutes ago, skillztowin said:

We were disappointed  that a team was at an immediate disadvantage without an MVR. To us it felt scummy because by now multiple members have experienced successive seasons where you iether had a ship or you didnt. it was disappointing to see the pattern continue with MVR. I think WG has a real problem.  

as we approached typhoon, Enthusiasm starting to drop as team after team fought exactly with the same ships. 2 petro, 2 goliaths. MVR, Ohio/montana, halland/smalland.

but,@Karandarthe worst thing we saw was the "backed in tanking" meta- this became completely out of control. as you reach typhoon, all ships on all sides made a "j turn" and fought each other stern in. this very viable strategy removed the fun of a naval battle, and lowered the experience to a Meh video game.  

Goliath / petro back in to the bulk of your force  - moving slightly forward & backward - slightly angled - taking very little damage similar to henri in past seasons - saw it lots - we made it to Storm I actually, faced a good many typhoon clans , fared ok vs them - but so boring. 

MVR with a decent captain vs a midway = a very real increase in odds to win

 

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14 minutes ago, Jamesalot_ET said:

have you  never seen a BB dev strike a cruiser at the start of a battle. i would call that strongly influencing the outcome of a battle by  alot

100% avoidable. if you get dev strike by a BB at start of battle it is because you messed up

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Just now, Wicked_Little_Witch said:

100% avoidable. if you get dev strike by a BB at start of battle it is because you messed up

so is everything else during a battle.  

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There was a very good write up from the Devs after the first time CVs were introduced.
 



I didnt see one for the T6 season, strangely...lol...

I really hope we get one for this season.

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43 minutes ago, Jamesalot_ET said:

I really dont find carriers that op. when played vs them correctly. this is clan battles. i did not have an ally near me when i started getting focused by the FDR, and he barely did any thing do me. where as i was reking his planes. 100k plane damage.  yes more ships around you to share AA does make it stronger. but the way everyone talks. they think 1-2 ships should be able to 100% shut down another ship from doing anything.

goliath cb vs fder.png

goliath cb vs fdr.png

20201114_194152_PBSC210-Goliath_51_Greece (2).wowsreplay

Their team didn't even bother to shoot you, even though you were spotted the whole time. But I suspect it is because your massive superior team obliterated theirs quickly.

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if she has a good captain, FDR is an ugly ship to deal with, she's worst against less nimble ships and BB's,   but she is no MVR. if a good MVR captain caught you solo in Goliath, you would not have survived the fight. The repeated large AP citadel hits take away your super heal, and there seriously is no dodging a good MVR captain. 

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Watching the clan CVLUL was hilarious in clan battles.  They pretty much played meme teams every game using rental boats (they all took the same boat so it could be 5 hindy's and 2 BB's) with 3 point captains still wrecking most teams in their path even if they had a CV.  Not that WG should use them as an example but it was fascinating to see them team kill near the end of the game because they were about to win but still wanted to hunt down the CV as they are famous for.  Basically hunt the CV transferred to clan battles.  Their approach actually made clan battles funny to watch.

Again, I'd discount their games in analysis though as they were seal clubbing in bravo I think it was.

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Very good write up. It made me realize why I lost interest mid-way through the season. Once the meta was decided, that's all you saw: 2xGoliaths, 2xPetros, Halland, Ohio/Montana FDR if you have it, MVR if you don't. J turn and back into the cap. Every damn game. It becomes a battle of attrition over who has better RNG, who has slightly better positioning. Apart from some top tier clans, this comp was the go-to and if we saw a team that wasn't running the meta, we'd almost always win against it. Heck, if I saw a 2xBB comp, I felt relieved. It was almost an assured win because of our superior spotting. I stopped playing for the last week because I just didn't want to play bow out Goliath anymore.

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1 hour ago, skillztowin said:

the worst thing we saw was the "backed in tanking" meta- this became completely out of control. as you reach typhoon, all ships on all sides made a "j turn" and fought each other stern in. this very viable strategy removed the fun of a naval battle, and lowered the experience to a Meh video game.  

 

22 minutes ago, Cereberus99 said:

 stopped playing for the last week because I just didn't want to play bow out Goliath anymore.

 

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