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LTC_Don

Time to fix Japanese Cruiser health?

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I recently did a comparison of tech tree cruiser health and noticed the high tier Japanese cruisers are woefully lacking in health compared across the board with other nations.  In fact, there is only an increase of 1,600 health from tier 7 Myoko at 39,200 to tier 10 Zao at 40,800.  This may originally have been a product of Zao being able to stealth fire years ago, but that is no longer an option and Zao now finds itself as the weakest (health pool) tier 10 cruiser (even weaker than the light cruisers).  And when you factor in the firing rate of its guns (13.7 second reload for 203mm), it further underperforms.  I'm not necessarily asking for an adjustment to reload rates, but it certainly looks as though there is a whole lot of room to buff the health pool of IJN crusiers starting at tier 8.  Not sure how the health pools were originally allocated, but it seems odd that the Mogami and Ibuki actually lose health when compared to the Myoko.

Cruiser Reload Rate Gun Caliber
Zao 13.7 seconds 203mm
Des Moines 5.5 seconds 203mm
Petro 11.4 seconds 220mm
Hindenberg 9.8 seconds 203mm
Goliath 18.5 seconds 234mm
Henri IV 11.4 seconds 240mm

 

Cruiser                      Health                  Increase   Cruiser                        Health                   Increase
Myoko 39,200          
Mogami 39,100 -100        
Ibuki 39,000 -100        
Zao 40,850 1,850        
             
New Orleans 35,000     Helena 33,300  
Baltimore 42,400 7,200   Cleveland 36,900  
Buffalo 47,800 5,400   Seattle 43,600  
Des Moines 50,600 2,800   Worcester 45,400  
             
Shchors 32,200          
Talinn 45,000 12,800   Chapeyev 37,000  
Riga 50,500 5,500   Donskoi 43,400 6,400
Petro 55,800 5,300   A Nevsky 50,900 7,500
             
Yorck 32,600          
Hipper 43,800 1,200        
Roon 49,500 5,700        
Hindenberg 51,900 2,400        
             
Surrey 35,300     Fiji 31,400  
Albemarle 43,800 7,500   Edinburgh 36,400 5,000
Drake 46,800 3,000   Neptune 44,900 8,500
Goliath 58,600 11,800   Minotaur 43,300 -1,600
             
Algerie 35,600          
Charles Martel 38,000 2,400        
Saint Louis 40,900 2,900        
Henri IV 53,300 12,400        
             
Zara 37,100          
Amalfi 42,800 5,700        
Brindisi 44,800 2,000        
Venezia 51,800 7,000        

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I see what youre saying but what about the Torp and stealth comparison . You need a bigger field of view not just health .

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A lot of the relatively low HP is a leftover from the days of stealth firing and different commander skills. For example AFT and BFT used to affect ship calibers up to 155mm. A properly set up Mogami with CE could stay for quite some time undetected while firing. Similarly, Ibuki and Zao also had relatively generous stealth firing capabilities. I can't remember how much exactly, but something in the ballpark of 1.5km+ of a stealth firing window.

This has been changed of course, but I believe this is the reasoning behind the relatively low HP, in combination with the good stealth and torpedoes. Add to that Zao's trolly armor scheme at the time with that 30mm plate (back when you just had USN and IJN) and you get the idea.

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30 minutes ago, Meta_Man said:

I see what youre saying but what about the Torp and stealth comparison . You need a bigger field of view not just health .

You only stay stealthy until the first time you fire your guns or get radared.  After that you are dodging rounds hoping not to die.  Torps take forever to arm, so not a real game changer until you are already in heavy combat.  Don't get me wrong, I do like playing the Zao, but it is a lot more challenging than it was 2 years ago.  Even more so with the introduction of all the super heavy cruisers and battleships that can lop off your head in a single salvo if they accurately guess which way you will dodge next.

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5 minutes ago, LTC_Don said:

You only stay stealthy until the first time you fire your guns or get radared.  After that you are dodging rounds hoping not to die.  Torps take forever to arm, so not a real game changer until you are already in heavy combat.  Don't get me wrong, I do like playing the Zao, but it is a lot more challenging than it was 2 years ago.  Even more so with the introduction of all the super heavy cruisers and battleships that can lop off your head in a single salvo if they accurately guess which way you will dodge next.

Ijn has some of the largest damage per HE  shell so I play them as fire then go dark.....other nations have to hug islands to get the theoretical dpm....you just go dark...not saying you're wrong just saying you can't show just health it has to be a body of information not just health...

Edited by Meta_Man

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1 hour ago, Meta_Man said:

I see what youre saying but what about the Torp and stealth comparison . You need a bigger field of view not just health .

Yeah this, you can't look at one factor and say this ship needs a buff. Pretty much every ship is the best or worst in some category. But it's the combination of all the stats that balances it. So yes, IJN CAs have less HP. But they have good stealth for CAs, and great HE and torps, and their armor is better than the CLs that float around. Zao has suffered from no stealth firing sure, but you have to look at more than HP. Saying IJN CAs need a buff because they have the lowest HP is like saying Kleber needs a buff because she has the largest surface concealment of T10 DDs. You're completely ignoring everything else about the ship that balances it.

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The zao is on the smaller side of heavy cruisers. Hence why her HP is smaller..HP is calculated more or less on the full displacement of a ship. Zao is smaller than the t8 hipper..

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4 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

A lot of the relatively low HP is a leftover from the days of stealth firing and different commander skills. For example AFT and BFT used to affect ship calibers up to 155mm. A properly set up Mogami with CE could stay for quite some time undetected while firing. Similarly, Ibuki and Zao also had relatively generous stealth firing capabilities. I can't remember how much exactly, but something in the ballpark of 1.5km+ of a stealth firing window.

This has been changed of course, but I believe this is the reasoning behind the relatively low HP, in combination with the good stealth and torpedoes. Add to that Zao's trolly armor scheme at the time with that 30mm plate (back when you just had USN and IJN) and you get the idea.

But then since sky cancer completely obviates stealth, we are back to IJN cruisers are not competitive.

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I am not an authority on IJN cruiser health, but I will say that some IJN destroyers...their in-game models are ugly and outdated. Graphical "decals" where other ships have fully implemented grab handles/ladder rungs, blurry numbers on turrets, no bridge details, solid black bridge windows, rusty and decrepit hulls...the list goes on. Those ships seriously need some attention from the outstanding WoWs art department. 

@Gneisenau013

Edited by HamAndCheez

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1 hour ago, Doombeagle said:

But then since sky cancer completely obviates stealth, we are back to IJN cruisers are not competitive.

No , your theory is less correct than those who say DDs are not effective with CVs in the game. My DD play does just fine . 

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8 hours ago, Meta_Man said:

I see what youre saying but what about the Torp and stealth comparison . You need a bigger field of view not just health .

Meta_Man, I think that he's on the money, particularly with the Zao.  The Zao's HP total was nerfed while she was an open water stealth firing beast.  But now, with OWSF long since removed, 40k HP is just too few HP for a tier 10 heavy cruiser.  The Zao desperately needs to have her HP buffed up to close to 50k HP to remain competitive with other normal tier 10 heavy cruisers (not the t10 super cruisers, though).

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39 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Meta_Man, I think that he's on the money, particularly with the Zao.  The Zao's HP total was nerfed while she was an open water stealth firing beast.  But now, with OWSF long since removed, 40k HP is just too few HP for a tier 10 heavy cruiser.  The Zao desperately needs to have her HP buffed up to close to 50k HP to remain competitive with other normal tier 10 heavy cruisers (not the t10 super cruisers, though).

Hey Crucis,  like I said in one of the posts...I didn't say he's wrong just said you can't just look at health but paint the whole picture...I don't play zao just saying she has other attributes.....she might need it,I'm not a zao player...just show the whole painting

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6 hours ago, Meta_Man said:

No , your theory is less correct than those who say DDs are not effective with CVs in the game. My DD play does just fine . 

Like I care what your WG owned self has to say about anything. Shouldn't you be under a desk in St. Petersburg?

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8 hours ago, Doombeagle said:

Like I care what your WG owned self has to say about anything. Shouldn't you be under a desk in St. Petersburg?

Lol,you're funny...I am not with WG , but I'm not gonna jump on a bandwagon either....if you can't deal with a game mechanism thats your fault. There are plenty if videos showing how to deal with all obstacles....My YouTube channel Meta_man2002 covers dealing with radar,poor concealment, dealing with CVS and today's vido is Le Terrible where I carry while dealing with a CV on me the WHOLE game.....get back to your bandwagon and ill get back to trying to help people..

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If IJN CAs need a buff.

I would say they need an access to a spotter plane staring at tier 6 instead of tier 9. Having such short gun range and crap AA while being bottom tier in a CV meta is a death sentence.

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On 11/24/2020 at 1:15 PM, Grapefruitcannon said:

The zao is on the smaller side of heavy cruisers. Hence why her HP is smaller..HP is calculated more or less on the full displacement of a ship. Zao is smaller than the t8 hipper..

Zao used to have about 44,000 health, but that was reduced to the current levels due to her efficacy at stealth firing.  When stealth firing was removed Zao's lost HP were not returned.

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