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AdmiralThunder

How Do You Lose A Co-op Game? (PVE Thread)

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I see this asked quite often; How do you lose a Co-op game? The people who ask it seem mystified it can happen even though very few people have a 100% WR who play it more than just in their initial intro to the game so they themselves have probably lost a Co-op game or two :Smile_trollface:. But I just had a game where I lost (:Smile_child:) because of an entire culmination of events that kept me from pulling the game out for a win. So I thought I would post up on just how you can lose a Co-op game pretty easy with general info and then add in how it applied in the game I just lost...


How To Lose A Co-op Game:

  • The team is mostly or even all friendly bots. When this happens you need to be prepared to play like you care most times as the red bots are as a rule much better than the green ones and before long you will probably find yourself down facing multiple reds. Sometimes the green ones are better but plan on the reds being better. In my game it was a mix. We had a couple green bots that did ok but the red bots wiped up the greens pretty fast.
  • The humans on the team play as bad or worse than the bots! Let's face it we have all seen it and even done it ourselves at times. You think, hey it's Co-op so if I die because I yolo'd for a task or something the rest will carry me. Doesn't always happen. OR, and I see this a lot, people say it's just bots so easy and no challenge who then proceed to get roflstomped by said easy bots in about 30 sec's :Smile_veryhappy:. The bots might be easy to defeat as a rule, and quite predictable in their paths, but they can shoot really good and if you don't at least try and angle and such you will get sunk! They are also better than any humans at focus firing one target and annihilating it. If you yolo out way in front, and the bots decide tag you are it, you are screwed! So you have to at least try because SOMETIMES it is needed and matters. In this game it was just 3 humans; me in Ohio, an Odin, and a Brindisi. Surprisingly we all spawned together by C cap (usually the humans are broken up at spawn when only a few).  The Odin and I went for C but our Brindisi pulled a classic boner I see a lot (and never understand why people do it). They went ALL THE WAY over to the A cap vs staying with us and ignored chat saying don't go. They got a kill but it was a low HP ship and they died as one of the 1st to go doing NOTHING to help the team. Man what could have been if they had stayed with the 2 of us and helped even a little. 
  • Capping! PLEASE for the love of god people CAP when you can. I see so many people say it doesn't matter, and generally it won't decide a game, but in most of my losses it is because the bots capped and the humans didn't and it was a point loss or you run out of time to kill that last ship as you have to cap on the way or lose on pts. Also, capping gives you good rewards which are something the mode lacks. It benefits you personally as well as the team. You will do much better staying in a cap to grab it then rushing out because you want to race across the map to get a little more damage in. CAP! In this game caps played into it as did time. The Odin and I took C cap while the Brindisi was off on their suicide jaunt. While capping C we were able to defend B cap from being taken by the bots pushing it. Everyone/thing else was in A fighting so no one got it. In the end the game came down to me and the Odin (and our useless bot CV) vs 5 (3 BB/CA/CV) with 1 cap each but we were down on points. I was turning to head for B behind the Odin who was charging 3 BB's in there when I saw the Brindisi out behind the island heading into C. I had to turn back and kill it before it took the cap and before it could get behind us with torps and that damn SAP. I wish the Odin had slowed to help me vs charging ahead. He played well don't get me wrong but an Odin is not up to facing an Ohio, Iowa, and Vladi all alone and with all 3 close. I got the Brindisi and was heading back when he went down leaving them in control of B. Iowa disappeared so I had to fight the Ohio and Vladi.  Took Ohio down and was engaging Vladi when the Iowa came around behind me (and took C in the process :etc_swear:). The bots seem particularly good at getting you in a crossfire at times. I had to kite away and WASD back and forth to their shots and it took way too long to kill them both. In the end it left me vs their CV but down 2 caps and way behind on pts. I got C back and went for the CV as capping B wouldn't be enough before time ran out. I got 2 salvos off at it but the CV was able to make impossible turns like a DD and avoid most of the damage and time just ran out on me. If I didn't have to slow down to cap (so we didn't lose on pts) I would have probably got the CV as I was just into secondary range and would have shredded it with those.
  • The Map. The map can play into a loss as easy as anything else. Have Ocean when you need to run and hide for a pts win and there is no where to go. Because the bots always know where you are, detected or not, they will run you down. Or like this game on Shatter (I detest this map) it is covered with huge islands that keep you from shooting all the time. Wasted so much time just trying to get clear of the islands to kill the Brindisi at the end and also the CV. Had CV targeted for over a minute but even with the spotter I had islands in the way. On another map with more normal islands I think this was a win.
  • RNG + Bot Cheats. Don't ever rule these 2 things out. They factor into it a lot. RNG can decide nope, your perfectly aimed salvo that should give multiple cits and dev strike that last ship for the win will totally whiff or just do overpens leaving you howling in frustration:Smile-angry:. The Bots are also notorious and known cheaters despite WG's claims to the contrary. Sure it is not technically cheating as they are just running the program script but it is still "cheating" in my book as WG gave them advantages vs the humans (some of which are needed so they are somewhat competitive). Their RNG and ability to do massive damage at some pretty steep angles is really annoying. Bots will punish you just as hard as a good human shooter for mistakes and even if you play well they get that programmed in RNG boost so you get pounded anyway. They can avoid torps like no one's business. WG can say it is untrue all they want but after 25K games and seeing bots instantly change course the second I drop torps on it over and over and over tells me they are full of it. Bots KNOW the second you launch torps at them regardless of how far outside of detection range for the torps they are. Bots know what ammo type you are using as well. Can't count the times I have been firing HE at a bot that goes broadside, swapped to AP, and had the bot INSTANTLY swing and nose in to me. But if I go back to HE it will swing out giving side again. Bots defy in game physics, handling, and speed. Bot ships can dodge like no ones business. They will at times almost roll onto their side they swung over so hard. When you see a BB like Gneisenau or GK, with turning radiuses the size of the galaxy, suddenly dodge a torp spread from 3km off like a DD you just have to LOL. How about that BB that is stuck on an island or dead hull that suddenly accelerates like the fastest DD in game with speed boost to avoid torps launched at it or even a gun salvo.  I swear they move so fast the bow should be 3 feet off the water. Bot CV's dodge like Ninja master too. Trying to shoot them at range is such a PITA as they can slow down, speed up, and change course like crazy. Bots can launch torps from impossible angles for their tube locations. I have had torps launched at me that 100% could only come from bow mounted launchers with no such launchers on the ship. Bots will also launch torps after they have died; many seconds after. We call them the Ghost Torps. So RNG and the Bot Cheats can get you too. In my game RNG denied me on a few shots that would have made a big difference time wise (like all overpens of the citadel area on a fully broadside Vladi - yeah ok right - should have been multiple cits and a dev strike). Also, the bot CV at the end pulled it's Ninja master tactics to dodge my salvos totally negating or seriously mitigating any possible damage. 

So these are just some of the ways to lose a Co-op game. It does happen despite your best efforts at times too. You actually CAN lose Co-op games. :Smile_ohmy::fish_nerv:

The proof (and this is a mild loss - have some 250-300K+ losses - but so many things happened in this loss it is the perfect example of how)...

zb0W7g1.jpg

gv5uHUA.jpg

ukl9UOp.jpg

fBU1871.jpg

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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I agree with your points , with one small caveat: 

You forgot a reason that will sometimes cost you a Co-OP match: one or more of the humans are AFK (or not actively participating). 

I had a match the the other day, where 3 of the humans were either AFK or sailing WAY off on the edge of the match for some unknown reason, needless to say that red bots had a field day with the remainder of us (2 humans that were actively participating in the match, the rest bots) as they focus fired everything down one at a time. 

The other odd thing was that one friendly bot in a Monte, tried to torp me from behind TWICE. :Smile_ohmy:

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21 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

zb0W7g1.jpg

gv5uHUA.jpg

ukl9UOp.jpg

fBU1871.jpg

Hilarious! 🤣

I've lost countless Co-op games—and all of them were fun!

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We PVE main players all have this ^^^^ merit badge..... 

Lost twice in one day this past week.  Ended up three BBs and a CA to me in Munchen........with three kills by the time I realized I was all alone; because, I started all alone on the far side of the map.  Ended up with 5 kills and lost the game on TIME/CAPS.   Even killed the CV before I realized I was freaking all by myself somehow.

Well done ^^^^ !! 

And, to the PVP players wandering in to Kindergarten COOP............un huh, you'all got your clocks cleaned right and proper that day.  Cause, after that very weird loss, I actually looked up whom was on that team because that kind of a massive stomp just seemed "out of place..."  I was the only COOP main; and, it was morning, day one of that phase of the BB event.........PVP shopping for "easy stuff" and.....................BLAT POOF BANG ZOWIE !  wth was that..........loss........and, a real stomp in Kindergarten.........

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Most amazing co-op game I've ever seen was years ago playing Atago to knock off a snowflake. Full human team, yoloed in got three kills before dying thought my job was done and exit to port... then the defeat ticker pops up and I see that a New Mexico bot kraken happened...

None of my teammates were AFK or seemingly deliberately throwing.

======

Outside of that one game, my co-op losses can almost always be chalked up to mostly green bots and the human players being careless / unlucky / badly matched or the very occasional deliberate throw.

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Poor positioning or rushing in on my part leads to most of mine. I dont enjoy kiting to much so playing shipd where i have to is a challenge.

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I get them in the wee hours, as I am alone...

I get them with players that fell asleep sailing halfway and they keyboard face as 4am is too much for them...

I get them when I am focused like a hot blonde in a bar and my team may or may not have accidentally TK half of their whole lot...

I get them if I have a bad day with the fat fingers or lag...yes...we get lag...I blame lag...

I get them if a WG camera man blocks my AP shell heading to a Yamato and he gets hit with it instead. Although, the camera boom and sound guy falling is kind of funny. 

I get them when a shell from another game, on another map, strikes my ship from somebody's Freddy and I am the last ship because it is a Freddy and that player missed his target by 1000 meters in his Randoms match. "Thanks a lot, hot shot!"

Some times my 64 torps that I fired from my Benham on a previous match shows up and hits me next match. Again, I was the last ship, I could have won that one too. Is it possible to TK oneself from a previous match? 

IDK, a lot of weird happens in co-op. Randoms players usually get deleted when they raise this death flag: "It's co-op!"

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12 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Poor positioning or rushing in on my part leads to most of mine. I dont enjoy kiting to much so playing shipd where i have to is a challenge.

I usually let one ship by, as in "after you", works almost all the time. LOL

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I find it surprising that you didn't mention the old "if all players have left the coop game and are no longer spectating it immediately auto resolves based on the total points" outcome.

At least I think that's what happens 🙃 

Those 2 draws came from somewhere 🤣

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2 minutes ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

I usually let one ship by, as in "after you", works almost all the time. LOL

I fell for that old trick once, it wasn't until the next match I noticed the big "SINK ME PLEASE!" sign on the back of my ship which explained why all of my team mates were shooting at me.:Smile-angry:

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Sorry to read about your loss and agree with your insights. Conversely, I had the "opposite" battle early this am. It was me in the Yamato and the only other human in an Ohio against an array of Tier X ships. I was in the middle and headed to port to the Ohio and we then proceeded to C, blazing away at broadside bots coming down the central channel. By staying together we prevented the single ship focus of the bots and picked them off one by one. We then ended up with a full health Yam and GK. I went right and he went left allowing one of us to have a free fire zone. We were damaging the bots when he nuked the Yam for a huge loss and we sunk it. We then repeated the process for the GK and run down the CV. What was a little disconcerting starting out ended in a comparatively easy and profitable win (800+ BXP for me and I think about 600+ for him).

Teamwork and effective communications can so so much in leading to a win.... 

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Lost my first match with Shiki about 2 1/2 weeks ago.  I had divi'd with a friend and my CO in that match.  "This one will be a breeze."  So I half-potato'd the match and got whacked, but didn't realize until after I got whacked that my buddy had already been whacked, and that most of the team was whacked as well.  This left my CO alone, who hadn't played in a small while (computer issues with WoWs), against my dopple and two other ships, only one at 50%.  Yeah, didn't end well. :Smile_hiding:

 

Broke 500k xp on her before that loss though. :Smile_playing:

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1 hour ago, ToxicSymphony said:

At least I think that's what happens

I think it might have stopped doing that now. The bots resolve things on their own, and I had one battle I expected to lose in which the lone green bot CV brought it home for the win.

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2 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

I

zb0W7g1.jpg

 

 

 

That awful feeling when your "first time" was unpleasant... :Smile_trollface:

Good article, though.

As far as your statement that some of the cheats are necessary to make the bots competitive is concerned, which ones do you personally think ARE necessary and which ones go too far? I personally think that their ability to sense an ammo switch is completely out of order, and that they should not be able to sense torps until actually detected. Their dodging skills are already sans pareil because they don't have the reaction delays humans suffer from; knowing what the trajectory is going to be the instant they leave the launcher is unjustified.

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Played an Epicenter battle where 3 human BBs didn't seem to know how the  mode worked. They sailed into a corner and lobbed shells.

Meanwhile the bots finished off the rest of us and capped all three areas.

I think it's the only time I've seen the red bots score 1000 points.

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Typically when I lose a co-op battle, it's because I YOLOd for mission tasks of one sort or another to kill the ships facing my spawn point without noticing that either there not many other humans on the team, or the other humans were also YOLOing. Thus an important lesson - if you are the only human survivor, do not YOLO, LOL.

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3 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Bot ships can dodge like no ones business.

That is the truth.  About a year or so ago, WG apparently decided to show what the bots could do by making the PTS T1 bots (probably others, too) into Super-Unicums.  Back then you could do the first two missions in T1 -- walkovers, even with all-bot teams.  But this time, even with 2-3 human teams, I lost four games in a row before muscling up with a 19-pt captain, flags, camo, and playing Erie like a high-tier cruiser, i.e. using terrain and focus fire.  We barely squeaked out a win and I called it quits with just the flags. 

One of the most annoying bits was that when a bot decided to kite and dodge, it was near impossible to hit. 

I'm convinced that the live bots roll for strategy and tactics - and maybe attributes - before each match.  That would mean that certain bots could turn into super-unicum kiters just to make you crazy.

2 hours ago, lloyd1701 said:

then the defeat ticker pops up and I see that a New Mexico bot kraken happened...

I had that same experience in Baltimore on Two Brothers.  The mirror Balto survived the battle with 5 kills, even though I was hunting him for the last half.  One of the reasons I believe that there's a certain amount of RNG in the red bot attributes.

Edited by iDuckman

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2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

un huh, you'all got your clocks cleaned right and proper that day.

First rule of PvP in PvE:  You don't talk about your experience in PvE.

Second rule of PvP in PvE:  You don't talk about your experience in PvE.

Third rule of PvP in PvE:  You can say that PvE is Kindergarten.

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That brief period where the bots all inherited the superhuman powers of the ultimate frontier bots. Yikes. 

Also the bots seem to be either more aware of silent launched torps (as we all know the classic trick of unlocking before firing) or they're making more course changes than they used to as of very very recently. But again, it doesn't *feel* like it's every bot, some still plow mindlessly into torps no problem 🤪

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2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

And, to the PVP players wandering in to Kindergarten COOP............un huh, you'all got your clocks cleaned right and proper that day.  Cause, after that very weird loss, I actually looked up whom was on that team because that kind of a massive stomp just seemed "out of place..."  I was the only COOP main; and, it was morning, day one of that phase of the BB event.........PVP shopping for "easy stuff" and.....................BLAT POOF BANG ZOWIE !  wth was that..........loss........and, a real stomp in Kindergarten.........

Yeah; that was a riot watching so many obvious Random mains stumbling so hard in ‘Kindergarten’ Co-op.

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One of the most frustrating things is watching you fellow humans hiding behind islands or running away from a single red ship.  I have seen numerous losses because the humans refused to engage the bots and ended getting picked off one at a time.

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1 hour ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

I usually let one ship by, as in "after you", works almost all the time. LOL

This is something I try to do as well because of the number of times I've gone forward, found myself between red and green bots and have had the green bots torp me as I'm dodging red torps.

I still fail at times when spawning in the central spawn, becoming the first one on my team spotted and then getting hit by a Star Wars-like cross fire of shots from all 3 flanks.

I don't mind the bots knowing immediately when I drop torps or when they still pen me on a steep angle.  I think this just makes me realize I can perform the torp drops better and how I time my steep angle better, rather than just present it and expect shots to bounce.

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37 minutes ago, ToxicSymphony said:

Also the bots seem to be either more aware of silent launched torps

This has been my impression as well; delinking the target system doesn't always work any more.

I've also caught bot BBs camping behind islands recently; sometimes two behind the same island. 

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9 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I've also caught bot BBs camping behind islands recently; sometimes two behind the same island. 

I'm not sure if it's them camping as much as their pathing seems extremely sketchy on some maps, and they're trying to figure their way around the islands but keep hitting something on their rail line. 

Seems to happen frequently in the center of North/Northern lights and up near the NE cap on Atlantic, off the top of my head. 

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