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Ace_04

Wrong Tier Ships?

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Just thinking about it for a bit now......some ships seem woefully wrong tiered considering their capabilities (for better and for worse).  Some quick examples come to mind:

  • T8 Monarch - arguably no better than KGV and probably should be at T7
  • T9 Kitakaze - more flexible and stealthy than Haragumo; could easily slot in at T10 without much issue
  • T5 Omaha - everyone's favorite punching bag; basically just a redundancy after Phoenix at T4.....slot it down a tier and introduce something better at T5
  • T7 Sinop - would have no problem holding its own at T8

These are just a few quick examples.  Any ships you think could be comfortably re-tiered without any major changes to their current parameters?

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-Tashkent, and WG thinks so too if R-10 is anything to go by.

-Duca d' Aosta since the moment she made it into the game.

-I believe Lightning with access to the IX-X Upgrade slot and very minor stat massage could easily fit at tier IX. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

T8 Monarch - arguably no better than KGV and probably should be at T7

Before they normalized Concealment Expert to 10% across the board, I seem to recall that Monarch had an obscenely low concealment, better than many cruisers in her MM spread. She probably still retains this edge in comparison to her BB peers. People call her garbage, yet I have one of my highest individual-ship Random win rates in her, spread across about a year because I dragged my feet on the grind. KGV and Lion, on the other hand, have been a very different story.

I think she gets a bad rep for being a paper ship shoehorned in where there were potential better options, but it depends on how long ago they planned to bring in Vanguard. She is in some ways the logical T8, but might have sat poorly in a lineup between KGV and the Lions as her design and construction post-date both the building of the KGV and the laying-down of the Lions (before they were cancelled).

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2 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Before they normalized Concealment Expert to 10% across the board, I seem to recall that Monarch had an obscenely low concealment, better than many cruisers in her MM spread. She probably still retains this edge in comparison to her BB peers. People call her garbage, yet I have one of my highest individual-ship Random win rates in her, spread across about a year because I dragged my feet on the grind. KGV and Lion, on the other hand, have been a very different story.

I think she gets a bad rep for being a paper ship shoehorned in where there were potential better options, but it depends on how long ago they planned to bring in Vanguard. She is in some ways the logical T8, but might have sat poorly in a lineup between KGV and the Lions as her design and construction post-date both the building of the KGV and the laying-down of the Lions (before they were cancelled).

Unmodified its concealment is 3 points higher than N Carolina(35), and 1 point higher than Roma(37). The Monarch sits at 38.

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Looking at Omaha's rivals in the T5 cruiser department,  something better might be OP.

A fully upgraded Taco might be her better, but the tech tree as a whole all should expect to die screaming.

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34 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

The entire new US BB line.....:Smile_trollface:

That line should have consisted of something else entirely.....don't even mind a re-tier.

34 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

-Tashkent, and WG thinks so too if R-10 is anything to go by.

-Duca d' Aosta since the moment she made it into the game.

-I believe Lightning with access to the IX-X Upgrade slot and very minor stat massage could easily fit at tier IX. 

 

These days with the nerfs to Khab, Tashkent is arguably better than Khab in most regards.

To your point, Duca is also fairly weak for her tier, but could be considered slightly strong at T5.

22 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Before they normalized Concealment Expert to 10% across the board, I seem to recall that Monarch had an obscenely low concealment, better than many cruisers in her MM spread. She probably still retains this edge in comparison to her BB peers. People call her garbage, yet I have one of my highest individual-ship Random win rates in her, spread across about a year because I dragged my feet on the grind. KGV and Lion, on the other hand, have been a very different story.

I think she gets a bad rep for being a paper ship shoehorned in where there were potential better options, but it depends on how long ago they planned to bring in Vanguard. She is in some ways the logical T8, but might have sat poorly in a lineup between KGV and the Lions as her design and construction post-date both the building of the KGV and the laying-down of the Lions (before they were cancelled).

Lowest AP alpha at tier, and KGV has better HE alpha on smaller guns.  Monarch is in a very bad place at T8, despite some rare shining moments.

15 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Looking at Omaha's rivals in the T5 cruiser department,  something better might be OP.

A fully upgraded Taco might be her better, but the tech tree as a whole all should expect to die screaming.

I don't think it's a secret that Furutaka is slightly OP at T5.

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29 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Unmodified its concealment is 3 points higher than N Carolina(35), and 1 point higher than Roma(37). The Monarch sits at 38.

The concealment rating is useless, the real test is the actual concealment number. Monarch is 14.6km, NC is 15.7, Roma is 14.9. That's actually useful info, especially as it allows direct comparison to other ship types as well.

1 hour ago, Ace_04 said:

Just thinking about it for a bit now......some ships seem woefully wrong tiered considering their capabilities (for better and for worse).  Some quick examples come to mind:

  • T8 Monarch - arguably no better than KGV and probably should be at T7
  • T9 Kitakaze - more flexible and stealthy than Haragumo; could easily slot in at T10 without much issue
  • T5 Omaha - everyone's favorite punching bag; basically just a redundancy after Phoenix at T4.....slot it down a tier and introduce something better at T5
  • T7 Sinop - would have no problem holding its own at T8

These are just a few quick examples.  Any ships you think could be comfortably re-tiered without any major changes to their current parameters?

Monarch is a result of the British having a really weird BB progression that doesn't match well with WOWS line development. I don't think she's T7 material, but she needs some help.

Kitakaze, yeah she wouldn't have much problem at T10.

Omaha is fine, the issue is that while she's a target in T7, she's pretty damn good if played right at T6 and below.

Sinop, yeah, definitely OP for T7. Sinop is far more powerful tier for tier than Kremlin is.

 

You forgot Guilio Caesare, that ship could just be stuck at T6 without any problem, but we all know what happened when WG tried to change it...

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1 minute ago, AJTP89 said:

The concealment rating is useless, the real test is the actual concealment number. Monarch is 14.6km, NC is 15.7, Roma is 14.9. That's actually useful info, especially as it allows direct comparison to other ship types as well.

Monarch is a result of the British having a really weird BB progression that doesn't match well with WOWS line development. I don't think she's T7 material, but she needs some help.

Kitakaze, yeah she wouldn't have much problem at T10.

Omaha is fine, the issue is that while she's a target in T7, she's pretty damn good if played right at T6 and below.

Sinop, yeah, definitely OP for T7. Sinop is far more powerful tier for tier than Kremlin is.

 

You forgot Guilio Caesare, that ship could just be stuck at T6 without any problem, but we all know what happened when WG tried to change it...

Ah, shame those numbers are meaningless. Why even have them :/

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1 hour ago, Ace_04 said:

Just thinking about it for a bit now......some ships seem woefully wrong tiered considering their capabilities (for better and for worse).  Some quick examples come to mind:

  • T8 Monarch - arguably no better than KGV and probably should be at T7
  • T9 Kitakaze - more flexible and stealthy than Haragumo; could easily slot in at T10 without much issue
  • T5 Omaha - everyone's favorite punching bag; basically just a redundancy after Phoenix at T4.....slot it down a tier and introduce something better at T5
  • T7 Sinop - would have no problem holding its own at T8

These are just a few quick examples.  Any ships you think could be comfortably re-tiered without any major changes to their current parameters?

Odin.  At Tier 8 she's a match for many cruisers she meets, but feels heavily outclassed by the Tier 8 battleships (Kansas excepted) let alone ships like Yamato.  She would make an excellent Tier 7 battleship.

Edited by michael_zahnle

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2 minutes ago, michael_zahnle said:

She would make an excellent Tier 7 battleship.

Add hydroacoustic search to Scharnhorst and she might be considered mildly overpowered. That's basically what Odin is, and you can argue till the cows come home to what extent an extra inch on the main guns and the concealment module make Scharnhorst suitable for T8.

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12 minutes ago, michael_zahnle said:

Odin.  At Tier 8 she's a match for many cruisers she meets, but feels heavily outclassed by the Tier 8 battleships (Kansas excepted) let alone ships like Yamato.  She would make an excellent Tier 7 battleship.

If they had left the HP pool alone on Odin, she may have been fine at T8.

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51 minutes ago, michael_zahnle said:

Odin.  At Tier 8 she's a match for many cruisers she meets, but feels heavily outclassed by the Tier 8 battleships (Kansas excepted) let alone ships like Yamato.  She would make an excellent Tier 7 battleship.

Odin's torpedoes more than level the playing field and make her very competitive with other t 8 battleships

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The Kita is getting a nerf love tap with detection. 

I agree with your statement with the Omaha. Other than historical sentiment. Why Omaha when you can Murmansk if you have it. The handling alone gives the Murmansk the nod. Like comparing a sports car vs a school bus.

 

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2 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

Just thinking about it for a bit now......some ships seem woefully wrong tiered considering their capabilities (for better and for worse).  Some quick examples come to mind:

  • T8 Monarch - arguably no better than KGV and probably should be at T7
  • T9 Kitakaze - more flexible and stealthy than Haragumo; could easily slot in at T10 without much issue
  • T5 Omaha - everyone's favorite punching bag; basically just a redundancy after Phoenix at T4.....slot it down a tier and introduce something better at T5
  • T7 Sinop - would have no problem holding its own at T8

These are just a few quick examples.  Any ships you think could be comfortably re-tiered without any major changes to their current parameters?

I actually wonder if Mogador is objectively better then Kebler because of the differences in concealment.

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3 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

Any ships you think could be comfortably re-tiered without any major changes to their current parameters?

Musashi is a T10

Edited by Wye_So_Serious
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3 hours ago, Ace_04 said:

 

I don't think it's a secret that Furutaka is slightly OP at T5.

Yeah, once you figure out that 8 inch guns at tier 5 are nasty, but when you first start out and don't know how to deal with slow reloading/slow rotating turrets, it can be a struggle.

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1 hour ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

Musashi is a T10

Not when you put her next to Yamato. She’s a strong tier IX, but her older sister outclasses her in every meaningful way.

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19 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Yeah, once you figure out that 8 inch guns at tier 5 are nasty, but when you first start out and don't know how to deal with slow reloading/slow rotating turrets, it can be a struggle.

A well driven Konigsburg with it's nine 150mm guns and rapid reloads can take down a Furutaka.

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8 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Not when you put her next to Yamato. She’s a strong tier IX, but her older sister outclasses her in every meaningful way.

OK, have it your way, she's a weak T10 slotted at T9. The differences between the 2 are not all that immense other than benefitting from sweet MM.

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14 minutes ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

OK, have it your way, she's a weak T10 slotted at T9. The differences between the 2 are not all that immense other than benefitting from sweet MM.

She has Yamato’s HP and overmatch, yes, but her guns are significantly worse. The difference between 1.8 and 2.1 sigma is huge, especially on a ship with nine guns and such an exposed citadel. Musashi has to push in closer than Yamato to land hits reliably, and at those ranges her citadel vulnerability and turret traverse become much bigger liabilities. Her AA is also laughable, to the point that I’m pretty sure a tier VI CV could have a good go at her.

If you put Musashi at tier X, no one would play her because Yamato is superior in just about every way. Tier IX MM is an intrinsic part of what makes her as strong as she is.

Edited by Nevermore135

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Both Ducas: Duca Aosota's high speed and good AP makes her good in Ops, but the lack of much else makes her feel overtiered. Aburzzi has worse AP (somehow) and even squishier, and rather forgettable. Downtiering both unchanged would make them far better

Emerald, Hawkins: need I say more. Dumping them to T4 and replace them with York and Aerathusa could easily be done

T8 NOLA: there was a reason they moved it to T7. a Cruiser designed around the London Naval Treaty competing with designs that ignored said Treaty

Hizen: take away all her nerfs, add 10k health and .2 sigma, and she's a T10

Seattle: literally the only thing you get over Cleveland is a heal and slot 6

Mikoyan: T8 guns, but not enough of them, with questionable accuracy, and a T2 hull, at T5

Sirocco: T4 meh DD stuffed at T5 only with a reload booster, without the perks of high tier FR DDs (shell performance, speed). probably the worst T5 premium you can get

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14 hours ago, Sventex said:

I actually wonder if Mogador is objectively better then Kebler because of the differences in concealment.

It is.  In the same way Tashkent is better than Khabarovsk in almost every regard these days.

14 hours ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

Musashi is a T10

I consider her more of a tier 9.5 in the same light as Alaska.

13 hours ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Yeah, once you figure out that 8 inch guns at tier 5 are nasty, but when you first start out and don't know how to deal with slow reloading/slow rotating turrets, it can be a struggle.

Yes, because low tiers get new players used to high-volume pew pew, so Furutaka tends to seem rather weak to someone who doesn't know how to plan good shots in advance.

12 hours ago, WM1957 said:

A well driven Konigsburg with it's nine 150mm guns and rapid reloads can take down a Furutaka.

Sure, but we both know how rare those are, especially when most are known to explode when a single BB glances their way.

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