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Herr_Reitz

Focusing random teams - by focusing leadership

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So sometimes it takes a while for thoughts to bubble up from the ether into your conscious. Admittedly, this action is called thinking but clearly now you will forever know it as a brain fart. Visualize an abstract thought "out there" focusing in on your physical brain and like a fart, it pushes into reality and out into your mind. Got that picture? Good. Phlapt...

When I play the random matches we have here, just the plain old random matches, the biggest "problem area" I see is lack of focus by everyone involved on my team. Me included of course. 

We have a rudimentary goal of "winning" but no combined plan. Trying to get something organized is quite the challenge as we are, after all, a dozen souls tossed into battle without a plan. Very much the challenge to convince others of even considering your suggestions. Many of us have enough on our hands just getting the pointy end pointing the right way. Agreed?

If you agree, then what I'd like to ask of you guys is this: "How can the game assist in providing a battle plan for the random players?" Can specific map highlighting help with an loose plan? How about rewards to motivate? Consider the gamut of options then let me know what you think.

tia fyc

Edited by Herr_Reitz

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Probably, in part, by incentivizing responses to requests. eg Extra xp for firing on a target designated by another player.

Probably just result in even more intolerable chat spam though.

Edited by Spirit_of_76

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The problem is that when you try to bring direction to the team with a plan you get chat banned. Happens all the times. In all honesty this game is becoming trash. It's far less fun and more of a time waster these days. 

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23 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

So sometimes it takes a while for thoughts to bubble up from the ether into your conscious. Admittedly, this action is called thinking but clearly now you will forever know it as a brain fart. Visualize an abstract thought "out there" focusing in on your physical brain and like a fart, it pushes into reality and out into your mind. Got that picture? Good. Phlapt...

When I play the random matches we have here, just the plain old random matches, the biggest "problem area" I see is lack of focus by everyone involved on my team. Me included of course. 

We have a rudimentary goal of "winning" but no combined plan. Trying to get something organized is quite the challenge as we are, after all, a dozen souls tossed into battle without a plan. Very much the challenge to convince others of even considering your suggestions. Many of us have enough on our hands just getting the pointy end pointing the right way. Agreed?

If you agree, then what I'd like to ask of you guys is this: "How can the game assist in providing a battle plan for the random players?" Can specific map highlighting help with an loose plan? How about rewards to motivate? Consider the gamut of options then let me know what you think.

tia fyc

Oink! 12 thousand posts? Herr Retz, unglaublich! Ok, pig, I understand the F1, etc are used to help the team. But it's limited... I use the chat to try to organize, ABC, or East/Center/West... After, it's not that easy to communicate as we don't necessarily have the right words. I even post to all lots of bilshut, I think it can distract reds... This is WWI & II game, it's total war... However, it's frustrating as finally all 12 do what they want or most probably what they can. Your suggestion is great but how can we "collaborate" other than with FN and chat? Goltz

Edited by franz_von_goltz

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45 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

So sometimes it takes a while for thoughts to bubble up from the ether into your conscious. Admittedly, this action is called thinking but clearly now you will forever know it as a brain fart. Visualize an abstract thought "out there" focusing in on your physical brain and like a fart, it pushes into reality and out into your mind. Got that picture? Good. Phlapt...

When I play the random matches we have here, just the plain old random matches, the biggest "problem area" I see is lack of focus by everyone involved on my team. Me included of course. 

We have a rudimentary goal of "winning" but no combined plan. Trying to get something organized is quite the challenge as we are, after all, a dozen souls tossed into battle without a plan. Very much the challenge to convince others of even considering your suggestions. Many of us have enough on our hands just getting the pointy end pointing the right way. Agreed?

If you agree, then what I'd like to ask of you guys is this: "How can the game assist in providing a battle plan for the random players?" Can specific map highlighting help with an loose plan? How about rewards to motivate? Consider the gamut of options then let me know what you think.

tia fyc

Many players do not understand how games are won and lost, they understand shooting ships, but not caps, points, contesting caps, zone awareness or even radar or hydro.... I've often wondered if there was a blinking icon that somehow alerted players " Hey get in the cap to stop the enemy points form accruing" I realize that is over the top and would be way to arcadish..... But there needs to be something that helps players understand the game. Experienced players tire of the game and are replaced with new who continually make the same mistakes perpetuating the frustration many of us feel... as evidenced by the daily MM needs to be fixed threads.

 

I have often asked WG/this board to create a one man solo mode that has a scoring mechanism to help teach players how to get better. Points can be awarded for defender badges, damage, capping and so on. If a player continually scores a 6/10 and sees many others doing much better it is a direct indication that he has much room for improvement. Without getting yelled at in game, losing karma or being followed back to port in rage whispers.

Currently, many players are rewarded for poor play and take those strategies and implement them long term. 

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I’ve been in a few matches where leadership was really noticed as a game changer, what I can take out of those is:

  • People will do what they want, but they can be receptive of advice if it makes sense to them.
  • Overall planning can only be somewhat achieved at match start.
  • People will often refuse to take orders, but will often accept advice. Choosing the right words can make a lot of difference.
  • Try to make advices that make sense to the receiver. Some people can’t see two steps ahead of them, so offer immediate advice that will eventually translate into a better future position.
  • Unless both emitter and receiver are on conditions to chat (i.e. un engaged), you must use small messages, trying to coordinate something larger will fail due to splitting the attention of the engaged party.

If something else comes to mind I’ll post it.

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Same question was asked in WOT over 10yrs ago and the answer is still the same:

  1. There is a 30sec count in to discuss a plan.
    1. Some will say 30sec is too short
    2. Some will say 30sec is too long
  2. No one will listen anyway
Edited by Laser_Beam

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People often blame others to justify their lost so you either remove the stats system from pub matches or imply SBMM to put players against players of equal stats and this would allow lower skilled players the chance to improve to move up and slap the bloated stat padders down to their real skill level. I have been up against players with 60 to 70% players who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag because most of them often play in divisions to achieve those stats. ( Not Everyone with high stats) Free XP often is used to get through a grind without effecting the stats of that ship. This is done by simply running a ship long enough to get a 50+% , then simply xp through to the next without risking running it and dropping the wr. This is where premium help that process.

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Oink - a lot of brain farts, clearly a lot of them.

What I'm wanting to know - do you see anything that could be programmed into the game, like perhaps the earlier mention of an "overlay" you could turn off, that could help keep people organized. 

I kind of like that idea because it's outside of direct player control. Call it CAS for computer aided strategy. Not really an overall commander, it would simply point out the obvious, like mentioned, "Your cap is under attack". 

And as I suggested, somewhere I think, remind players winning gets you more of everything. 

I'm just wondering if you think something could direct/draw attention to focusing on the map.

I liked the idea of solo mode - maybe we could do two to five a day, no rewards, no costs, get maybe a total of 50 or a hundred free missions in that mode every six to twelve months, to reiterate strategic movement for a type and the team. 

It would make all of us better commanders and we'd all get better matches. In the end, that's what I'm hoping something like this would achieve. 

Better battles, more enjoyment, great player counts. 

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1 hour ago, Herr_Reitz said:

So sometimes it takes a while for thoughts to bubble up from the ether into your conscious. Admittedly, this action is called thinking but clearly now you will forever know it as a brain fart. Visualize an abstract thought "out there" focusing in on your physical brain and like a fart, it pushes into reality and out into your mind. Got that picture? Good. Phlapt...

When I play the random matches we have here, just the plain old random matches, the biggest "problem area" I see is lack of focus by everyone involved on my team. Me included of course. 

We have a rudimentary goal of "winning" but no combined plan. Trying to get something organized is quite the challenge as we are, after all, a dozen souls tossed into battle without a plan. Very much the challenge to convince others of even considering your suggestions. Many of us have enough on our hands just getting the pointy end pointing the right way. Agreed?

If you agree, then what I'd like to ask of you guys is this: "How can the game assist in providing a battle plan for the random players?" Can specific map highlighting help with an loose plan? How about rewards to motivate? Consider the gamut of options then let me know what you think.

tia fyc

I do not think the solution is pre-game planning time. Plans hardly ever survive contact with the enemy. Instead what is needed is revamp of the quick-commands (F1-11 keys)  There are some that are useless altogether and others which can be put to better use.  For example  it would be great to replace the "Need AA support" button with something like " Time for a combined push" which when focused on a ship will call to player directly. To this others can then reply with the affirmative or negative button.  Also a "Enemy ship close by" can serve well.  A group of buttons like this could serve greatly for individual flanks to coordinate their efforts better.  

1 hour ago, STINKWEED_ said:

The problem is that when you try to bring direction to the team with a plan you get chat banned. Happens all the times. In all honesty this game is becoming trash. It's far less fun and more of a time waster these days. 

I have chatted with people about what to do next. I have proposed plans. I have made suggestions not once have I been chat banned for doing any of this. I am most certainly not the most friendly person when doing so either.  It might really be down to how you try to bring direction to the team if you are getting so much grief over it that you are getting chat banned. 

41 minutes ago, CO_Valle said:

I’ve been in a few matches where leadership was really noticed as a game changer, what I can take out of those is:

  • People will do what they want, but they can be receptive of advice if it makes sense to them.
  • Overall planning can only be somewhat achieved at match start.
  • People will often refuse to take orders, but will often accept advice. Choosing the right words can make a lot of difference.
  • Try to make advices that make sense to the receiver. Some people can’t see two steps ahead of them, so offer immediate advice that will eventually translate into a better future position.
  • Unless both emitter and receiver are on conditions to chat (i.e. un engaged), you must use small messages, trying to coordinate something larger will fail due to splitting the attention of the engaged party.

If something else comes to mind I’ll post it.

This  is all very true strikes to the core of what is needed. A way to coordinate in the moment with team mates. The perfect tool for it would be the quick-commands (F-Keys) they just need a few more useful options added to them and some of the less useful ones removed. 

4 minutes ago, motleytanker said:

People often blame others to justify their lost so you either remove the stats system from pub matches or imply SBMM to put players against players of equal stats and this would allow lower skilled players the chance to improve to move up and slap the bloated stat padders down to their real skill level. I have been up against players with 60 to 70% players who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag because most of them often play in divisions to achieve those stats. ( Not Everyone with high stats) Free XP often is used to get through a grind without effecting the stats of that ship. This is done by simply running a ship long enough to get a 50+% , then simply xp through to the next without risking running it and dropping the wr. This is where premium help that process.

The stats system has absolutely nothing to do with being able to communicate plans to your team mates.  It seems to me you are supremely unhappy with the place it leaves you at.  You even contradict yourself in your rant.  IF their stats meant nothing and they can't fight as well as you then you wouldn't need to be protected by SBMM in the first place.  Also if you seek improvement then you should be seeking to play against tough opponents from whom you can learn useful tactics and not artificially inflating your own stats by playing against lesser opponents.  

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It seems that a large number of players is too lazy to read the chat,

making it useless as a tool to give team orders.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, eviltane said:

This  is all very true strikes to the core of what is needed. A way to coordinate in the moment with team mates. The perfect tool for it would be the quick-commands (F-Keys) they just need a few more useful options added to them and some of the less useful ones removed

Agreed.  F-Keys definitely need a redo in IMHObservations. (e.g., "I need intelligence data!" might be changed to a highlighted Map square from the Requester with "Reconnaisssance Requested" that could be replied "Roger" by the accepting ship).  Action-Reaction...and concise, not in chat.

Edited by Charon2018
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2 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

We have a rudimentary goal of "winning" but no combined plan. Trying to get something organized is quite the challenge as we are, after all, a dozen souls tossed into battle without a plan. Very much the challenge to convince others of even considering your suggestions. Many of us have enough on our hands just getting the pointy end pointing the right way. Agreed?

If you agree, then what I'd like to ask of you guys is this: "How can the game assist in providing a battle plan for the random players?" Can specific map highlighting help with an loose plan? How about rewards to motivate? Consider the gamut of options then let me know what you think. 

The problem is you won't get cooperation from a lot of people cause they don't want to cooperate unless they themselves initiate it - if you try to push it people get extremely indignant. It'd be hard to give rewards for this beyond 'bonus exp/silver for firing on enemies who've been designated' like was suggested precisely because WG has striven to keep their Randoms 'team' experience very not-team.

54 minutes ago, motleytanker said:

Free XP often is used to get through a grind without effecting the stats of that ship. This is done by simply running a ship long enough to get a 50+% , then simply xp through to the next without risking running it and dropping the wr.

Only mediocre players will do that, because they need to rely on luck to get even 50%, then it's in their best interest to 'preserve' the ship by using FXP to skip past the rest of the grinding experience. But while some purples are purple-in-divs-only, they're almost always still good enough to not need to do that. You're describing much worse players doing that kind of behavior, not purples and blues. They might spend FXP to skip the stock grind, so their grind is more comfortable and fun, unless they're just skipping the ship entirely for whatever reason.

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2 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

So sometimes it takes a while for thoughts to bubble up from the ether into your conscious. Admittedly, this action is called thinking but clearly now you will forever know it as a brain fart. Visualize an abstract thought "out there" focusing in on your physical brain and like a fart, it pushes into reality and out into your mind. Got that picture? Good. Phlapt...

When I play the random matches we have here, just the plain old random matches, the biggest "problem area" I see is lack of focus by everyone involved on my team. Me included of course. 

We have a rudimentary goal of "winning" but no combined plan. Trying to get something organized is quite the challenge as we are, after all, a dozen souls tossed into battle without a plan. Very much the challenge to convince others of even considering your suggestions. Many of us have enough on our hands just getting the pointy end pointing the right way. Agreed?

If you agree, then what I'd like to ask of you guys is this: "How can the game assist in providing a battle plan for the random players?" Can specific map highlighting help with an loose plan? How about rewards to motivate? Consider the gamut of options then let me know what you think.

tia fyc

Some games allow a player to be the Commander....!  And, make it worth his/her while to "call the game...."  And, those Commanders whom are good at calling the game can get even higher rewards as more and more players want to Division with that player !!!!   Not everyone want to lead.  But, when someone is really good at it, in many games, they are rewarded and become the most sought after CPT's out there !

Why not here?

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You are going to need to provide very large incentives for a so called person who assists in battle to get a credit equal to a kill, for the so called assisted kill. In Battlefield we had so much trouble getting snipers to deploy soflams which light tanks up for the Javelin to get one shot top kills. But the snipers do not bother to carry the soflam because they do not get much incentive to use it. Not to mention the glowing device exposes them to a 4 km cannon sniper shot tank style.

We fight a certain way that does not need leaders, just a common objective and any and all enemy problems are worked on as they come up whatever it is. If it is effective then voice comms would be like this... So and So says he sees a tank on a road to A and another so and so pipes up and says tank dead a few moments later. Next problem. Another so and so has mined the bridge from tank's main spawn already so it's already dead when it drives onto it seeking revenge. Teamwork at its best without unnecessary blabbing.

Public servers however have always been herding cats you see a mob basically. All motivated their own selfish goals. Little goals like getting 7 crits or 20 spots or whatever mission. What we used to do is organize and then go into the public server as a team and clear it out. The mob leaves when they realize that we will win every time. Anyone who loads in and spawns got cut down. Until the server declares game over by timer etc. Those were the old days. Today we have game timers, protected spawns and so forth. So called balance.

Once in a great while a situation in a public wows server is recognized as so extreme people will organize. One time we all loaded into the wows a few years ago found a blank ocean map and then realized it's all BB's on both sides. The first minute or so is consumed with chatting and organizing with some of us saying to our team FLEET UP! And so we did. We all sailed close together and we all instantly blapped any enemy BB that got spotted. Some of them needed two rounds of firing to get sunk from all of us. As soon they saw that we were a organized mass while they lost 4 already and scattered... they knew they were lost.

A little bit of leadership goes a long way sometimes in public servers. But not too often.

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Another thing to keep in mind is the tendency of people to tunnelvision. Even though I try to avoid it, I find myself "zoned-out" and focusing only on the things ahead of me instead of glancing at the minimap every 30s or so. It takes practice and time for the routine aspects of the game to become second nature enough that you have mental capacity available for planning and strategizing during an engagement. While a lot of the bettter/great players don't have any problems with this, I suspect this is somewhat an issue for people no playing the game regularly/daily. Compare it to driving a car when you just got your license vs. years later: At first keeping up with traffic and finding the right way takes up all your attention, but after a while you have no issue listening to a podcast or talking to people while driving.

So in essence, I suspect more people than you'd think tend to zone-out and miss the score/timer running out etc. or miss that the other flank has just collapsed. Not by malice/negligence, but by being too focused on what is in front of them.

In terms of planning and cooperation between players, there are several imho:

  • willingness: Not everyone has chat enabled. Some people are just there for the pew-pew, don't care about winning or think MM is rigged against them anyway.
  • understanding: the lack of tactical understanding of the situation (factor in the tunnel-vision thing from above)
  • reactive vs proactive: people tend to think in terms of what they want to do and their plan to victory, instead of how they counter the opponent from achieving their goal, failing to anticipate developments.
  • no universal doctrine: There is no well-defined strategy or list of plays in randoms that people can follow, no script beyond: "stay on your flank, try to cap, push/kite as required". While this seems simple, figuring out how to do this with the ships at hand is hard to do on the fly.

I don't think you could address all of these points in 30s or 300s before the match. It requires a level of understanding and collaboration that is unrealistic with random people, unless you happen to play with a lot of similar minded people with similar experience in the game.

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1 hour ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Oink - a lot of brain farts, clearly a lot of them.

What I'm wanting to know - do you see anything that could be programmed into the game, like perhaps the earlier mention of an "overlay" you could turn off, that could help keep people organized. 

I kind of like that idea because it's outside of direct player control. Call it CAS for computer aided strategy. Not really an overall commander, it would simply point out the obvious, like mentioned, "Your cap is under attack". 

And as I suggested, somewhere I think, remind players winning gets you more of everything. 

I'm just wondering if you think something could direct/draw attention to focusing on the map.

I liked the idea of solo mode - maybe we could do two to five a day, no rewards, no costs, get maybe a total of 50 or a hundred free missions in that mode every six to twelve months, to reiterate strategic movement for a type and the team. 

It would make all of us better commanders and we'd all get better matches. In the end, that's what I'm hoping something like this would achieve. 

Better battles, more enjoyment, great player counts.

Sorry to say it but the 1st brain fart was attempting to inquire about game prompts that can be introduced to assist in team play...while opening the thread w/a whole paragraph about nothing but brain farts.

Then you added 2 paragraphs about how team play is currently...w/still no mention of built in game prompts.

Maybe a new thread w/out 3 paragraphs of preamble (& 1 of them just describing brain farts) not related to how mechanics/prompts can be implemented into the game to assist in team play before finally getting to a question about that.

Not surprising everybody missed the question in the 4th paragraph when the 1st 3 paragraphs didn't even hint at that theme.

Tricky concept though as how much input can the game give you w/out either supplying red teams positions or suggesting potential options w/out any concept of what the 12 individual humans may be intending to do individually based on what's safest for their ship type in relationship to the red teams lineup & their spawn location (just at the start of a match...not to mention after the game has proceeded for awhile).

There's already a built in text message letting you know when a cap is being contested by any team & the color of the cap changing when it's being capped.

The best thing to include (in port...before a new player even gets into his 1st battle) would be a message letting them know post battle costs are standardized based on tier whether you never get scratched or if you get sunk...that would make players more inclined to help when needed rather than hiding to preserve credits thinking damage to their ship costs them like it used to.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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42 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

<snip>

There's already a built in text message letting you know when a cap is being contested by any team & the color of the cap changing when it's being capped.

The best thing to include (in port...before a new player even gets into his 1st battle) would be a message letting them know post battle costs are standardized based on tier whether you never get scratched or if you get sunk...that would make players more inclined to help when needed rather than hiding to preserve credits thinking damage to their ship costs them like it used to.

The brain fart is sort like salad dressing to what was coming. I find usually here, at least, if I get straight to the point people either don't get the or do not like the directness. It's also an attempt to solicit input, not claiming all-knowing knowledge. Well, it's my way at least. 

The built-in messaging as is doesn't do the job. The thread has continued to this point, where it seems the least they can do is update the messaging system which is definitely a step in the right direction, imo. 

You also just brought forth another good point - costs to play the game. I would suspect most players don't know there's no difference. 

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17 hours ago, Learux said:

It seems that a large number of players is too lazy to read the chat,

making it useless as a tool to give team orders.

 

 

The chat msgs are very hard to read because they blend into the background and it's located far away from essential information like the mini-map.  It takes too long to make out someone is telling you to 'get back'. 

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19 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

So sometimes it takes a while for thoughts to bubble up from the ether into your conscious. Admittedly, this action is called thinking but clearly now you will forever know it as a brain fart. Visualize an abstract thought "out there" focusing in on your physical brain and like a fart, it pushes into reality and out into your mind. Got that picture? Good. Phlapt...

When I play the random matches we have here, just the plain old random matches, the biggest "problem area" I see is lack of focus by everyone involved on my team. Me included of course. 

We have a rudimentary goal of "winning" but no combined plan. Trying to get something organized is quite the challenge as we are, after all, a dozen souls tossed into battle without a plan. Very much the challenge to convince others of even considering your suggestions. Many of us have enough on our hands just getting the pointy end pointing the right way. Agreed?

If you agree, then what I'd like to ask of you guys is this: "How can the game assist in providing a battle plan for the random players?" Can specific map highlighting help with an loose plan? How about rewards to motivate? Consider the gamut of options then let me know what you think.

tia fyc

Capture the flag is supposed to organize the movement of both teams.  If every team member follows the rules of capture the flag, they'll find that they just naturally end up in places to support each other at the various caps.

As players play more games in this fashion, they tend to improve in their ability to play the capture the flag sub game.  And as this happens more players are naturally supporting each other and this tends to snowball into better and better play.

It's sort of the organizing principle that leads to the greater emergent game.  

But this is where CVs come in and throw a big ole wrench in the works.  CVs punish players for playing that capture flag game as its meant to be played.  Which makes it that much harder for the new player to learn those basics and to naturally end up where they need to be.

So the game is teaching new and even old players mutually exclusive lessons.  Which is why there is very little hope for the game to improve in this area as it stands.  And why it desperately needs a sans CV mode so that players can learn those basics.  

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20 hours ago, Sweetsie said:

I have often asked WG/this board to create a one man solo mode that has a scoring mechanism to help teach players how to get better. Points can be awarded for defender badges, damage, capping and so on. If a player continually scores a 6/10 and sees many others doing much better it is a direct indication that he has much room for improvement. Without getting yelled at in game, losing karma or being followed back to port in rage whispers.

When I started plying this game in September 2016, it had a tutorial battle mode - one player vs. some entry-level bots, with some brief instructions that would display on-screen. I recall that not all of the instructions were clear; not that they were complex, but that they weren’t backed up by any explanation. For example: “Capture the contested area” isn’t complex, but as a new player, I was asking myself, “what is this big ring of buoys in the water?” And after I knocked off the enemy bots, “Ain’t no damn contested area no more, I ought to have captured the damn thing already!”

And, you could enter that mode only if your battle count were ten battles or less.It seems kind of counterproductive to close access to it after so few battles.

 I don’t know if the mode even exists for new players any more.

I recall it being one, maybe two scenarios, tops. Seems to me that a few more challenging (but still robotic) scenarios could be built to instruct players on a few more important points. Things like “capture this point in X amount of time”, or capturing with a “live” scoreboard, where the student is behind, and they have to flip the scoreboard to a winning score. Basic angling - keeping damage AP received under X amount. Basic DCP and RP management - keeping ship alive, or ship health above Y minimum amount.

And make them better:

1. Flesh them out with better instructions.

2. Don’t graduate people out of them.

3.Making some of them division-eligible, so a veteran player can div up with rookies, and give explanations to speed up the learning process (presuming WG would still be muddling up the instructions.)

  • Cool 1

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21 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

If you agree, then what I'd like to ask of you guys is this: "How can the game assist in providing a battle plan for the random players?" Can specific map highlighting help with an loose plan? How about rewards to motivate? Consider the gamut of options then let me know what you think.

Toggle the mini-map to full screen, teammates' last chat msg visible next to their ship.  

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There is absolutely no way to do this, just always assume your team are potatoes because they usually are. Play selfishly and for yourself, and try to carry your team every game. Teamplay is a myth, most of the time I don't even use chat unless I'm in a division. It's not worth it to try and coordinate with teammates with anything other than quick commands at the most because chances are they will not respond or listen to you.

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