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Litigo_1970

Is Petropavlovsk immune to Gearing?

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Decided to dust off the Gearing after many months and finish off the Unique Upgrade mission. I smoked up just outside a cap and started working on a Petro who was parked next to an island to radar the cap. I worked on him at length, with good hits. Moved around the map to scout, then came back to work on him again. 

Because of the angles, he dodged every salvo of torps I sent his way, not unusual in itself. However, I was starting to get frustrated that I wasn't getting his health down. I kept checking my "hits" box number, and I was accumulating good hits, so I just kept working on him. It just happened that I didn't land any shots on any other ship that game, just the Petro.

After I was killed, I hovered over the "hit box" which indicated I had landed 183 hits on the Petro. It was only then that I realized that of those 183, all 183 were non penetrations. ALL OF THEM.

As the Petro was dead still,  and I was not maneuvering in my smoke, I literally put my aiming reticle on the superstructure at the center of the ship, and held the trigger down to cycle my guns. I realize after checking the armor models that Petro has a 50mm deck, and it seems likely I was somehow aiming at the deck in front of the superstructure rather that at the superstructure as I intended, but you would think that at the ~10km range I was firing at, RNG would  have distributed at least a few shells into the superstructure. 

I wasted an entire game raining completely useless shells onto a ship that appears to be 100% immune. Is this just the worst RNG in the history of the game, or is the Petro in fact completely immune to Gearing HE? If so, is the Petro immune to all DD HE? What's going on here?

 

Edited by Litigo_1970

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30 minutes ago, Litigo_1970 said:

It was only then that I realized that of those 183, all 183 were non penetrations. ALL OF THEM.

I'm not sure what you was shooting but Gearing's HE has 21mm pen and Petropavlovsk has 16mm superstructure. Shell arcs are pretty bad and superstructure is pretty small but still. Maybe you was shooting the 25mm nose?

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4 minutes ago, dimzzy said:

I'm not sure what you was shooting but Gearing's HE has 21mm pen and Petropavlovsk has 16mm superstructure. Shell arcs are pretty bad and superstructure is pretty small but still. Maybe you was shooting the 25mm nose?

That must have been what was happening. When I first looked at the Petro armor model after the game, I saw the 50mm deck, but didn't even think about the 25mm front and back deck sections, both of which are also immune to Gearing. It is still really unusual that RNG wouldn't distribute at least some of my shots into the superstructure, as that is what I was aiming for. I must have been aiming further forward than it appeared. 

I have noticed that the relative angles in this game can appear very different, depending on which perspective you are looking at it from. Recently I was driving south along the east edge of the map, right next to the border, and from my perspective behind my ship, it was absolutely clear that I was angled slightly in towards the border as I moved forward. However, when I viewed my ship from the front, looking back, it was equally clear that I was angled out away from the border.  This was without making any changes in the actual heading of the ship.

In short, the apparent heading, and the actual bearing, were very different, depending on the location from which you viewed the ship. It was a very distinct difference. Not sure what causes it. I have also noticed the same effect when watching replays. Sometimes the view from behind your ship makes you 100% sure that you were properly angled, but when you later see the replay from the front, it becomes clear that you did not have the angle you thought you had, relative to the ship shooting at you.  

It becomes even clearer when you watch a game an opponent posts on you tube, recorded from their perspective. After 10,000 games, I have been in more than a few that ended up on you tube. If you watch the game replay from your perspective, it looks VERY different than the same game watched from the perspective of the guy shooting at you. And I do mean, VERY different. I suspect the magnitude of the effect is doubled, as your angle, and the enemy ship's angle, are both not what they seem from your perspective, and similarly, the way the enemy sees his ship's angle, and your ship's angle, are not what they seem from his perspective. 

If I had to guess, I would say that their can be something like a 20-35 degree apparent difference in the relative angles of two ships firing at each other, depending on the perspective. Check it out when you have time, you will be surprised. 

 

 

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The best options vs Petros are usually torpedoes or setting fires in a DD. It's very tough to crack it otherwise. Attacking from cover usually provides a much better output/

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Feed him a bunch of fish.  Gearing has access to 16.5km torpedoes.  Use them and be wary of 12km Radar.

 

As for guns, be familiar with what the guns of any of your ships can and cannot do against various threats.  Gearing's 127mm guns have 21mm HE Penetration, so firing even at Petropavlovsk's 25mm bow is futile, never mind the other, more heavily armored sections of the hull.  The most thickly armored Superstructure in the game are on High Tier BBs, and that's 19mm.

 

Fires?  Unreliable RNG, and USN DD Guns are poor fire starters.  Gearing's 127mm guns have a mere 5% Fire Chance.  Couple that with Survival Builds used by players on various ships (and I'd figure Petro is one of those types), then your chances are really bad if you want Fires to save your ship's performance.

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In terms of (non IJN 100mm or German) DD HE, Petro is exactly the same as any other cruiser: Hit the superstructure to do damage. Hit anywhere else and you do squat.

Basically, you hit everywhere else.

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2 hours ago, Litigo_1970 said:

If I had to guess, I would say that their can be something like a 20-35 degree apparent difference in the relative angles of two ships firing at each other, depending on the perspective. Check it out when you have time, you will be surprised. 

The Navigator mod available is very helpful for knowing the angles and also training your eye.

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51 minutes ago, cheereereerios said:

The Navigator mod available is very helpful for knowing the angles and also training your eye.

Baiting people with an angled hull to bounce shells is a very big thing.  I remember as a newer player I'd fall for it a lot.  You see a lot of hull sides, but it's still enough to bounce.

 

It's what you get for a game engine designed for tanks.  The game's weird mechanics for a naval game make more sense when one understands it was made for tanks.

 

Edit:  There's a lot of posts where people say they fired at a target's broadsides to get next to nothing.  What likely happened was they got trolled by the defending player milking bounce mechanics for all its worth.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 hours ago, Litigo_1970 said:

Decided to dust off the Gearing after many months and finish off the Unique Upgrade mission. I smoked up just outside a cap and started working on a Petro who was parked next to an island to radar the cap. I worked on him at length, with good hits. Moved around the map to scout, then came back to work on him again. 

Because of the angles, he dodged every salvo of torps I sent his way, not unusual in itself. However, I was starting to get frustrated that I wasn't getting his health down. I kept checking my "hits" box number, and I was accumulating good hits, so I just kept working on him. It just happened that I didn't land any shots on any other ship that game, just the Petro.

After I was killed, I hovered over the "hit box" which indicated I had landed 183 hits on the Petro. It was only then that I realized that of those 183, all 183 were non penetrations. ALL OF THEM.

As the Petro was dead still,  and I was not maneuvering in my smoke, I literally put my aiming reticle on the superstructure at the center of the ship, and held the trigger down to cycle my guns. I realize after checking the armor models that Petro has a 50mm deck, and it seems likely I was somehow aiming at the deck in front of the superstructure rather that at the superstructure as I intended, but you would think that at the ~10km range I was firing at, RNG would  have distributed at least a few shells into the superstructure. 

I wasted an entire game raining completely useless shells onto a ship that appears to be 100% immune. Is this just the worst RNG in the history of the game, or is the Petro in fact completely immune to Gearing HE? If so, is the Petro immune to all DD HE? What's going on here?

On the Gearing AP is the route to go.

You can take a few HE test volleys to try to get a quick fire or 2  started but if it doesn't happen right away assume FP skill is in effect & don't waste any more time on the HE as the AP does miraculous things to the sides of stationary cruisers.

I can only assume you waited for the Petro to use it's radar before you smoked up 10km from it though...floaty shells can be annoying from range but staying outside it's 12km radar range might be a better option in future also...just in case.

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5 hours ago, Litigo_1970 said:

Decided to dust off the Gearing after many months and finish off the Unique Upgrade mission. I smoked up just outside a cap and started working on a Petro who was parked next to an island to radar the cap. I worked on him at length, with good hits. Moved around the map to scout, then came back to work on him again. 

Because of the angles, he dodged every salvo of torps I sent his way, not unusual in itself. However, I was starting to get frustrated that I wasn't getting his health down. I kept checking my "hits" box number, and I was accumulating good hits, so I just kept working on him. It just happened that I didn't land any shots on any other ship that game, just the Petro.

After I was killed, I hovered over the "hit box" which indicated I had landed 183 hits on the Petro. It was only then that I realized that of those 183, all 183 were non penetrations. ALL OF THEM.

As the Petro was dead still,  and I was not maneuvering in my smoke, I literally put my aiming reticle on the superstructure at the center of the ship, and held the trigger down to cycle my guns. I realize after checking the armor models that Petro has a 50mm deck, and it seems likely I was somehow aiming at the deck in front of the superstructure rather that at the superstructure as I intended, but you would think that at the ~10km range I was firing at, RNG would  have distributed at least a few shells into the superstructure. 

I wasted an entire game raining completely useless shells onto a ship that appears to be 100% immune. Is this just the worst RNG in the history of the game, or is the Petro in fact completely immune to Gearing HE? If so, is the Petro immune to all DD HE? What's going on here?

 

I suggest having the Alternative UI activated.

It will list what kind of shell hits you are getting (shatters, ricochets, penetration, torp bulge) as well as showing the damage you are causing. That can help you if you are firing on a ship and not seeing any damage or alot of non-pens, you can adjust accordingly.

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58 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Baiting people with an angled hull to bounce shells is a very big thing.  I remember as a newer player I'd fall for it a lot.  You see a lot of hull sides, but it's still enough to bounce.

 

It's what you get for a game engine designed for tanks.  The game's weird mechanics for a naval game make more sense when one understands it was made for tanks.

 

Edit:  There's a lot of posts where people say they fired at a target's broadsides to get next to nothing.  What likely happened was they got trolled by the defending player milking bounce mechanics for all its worth.

I recall once my Zao bouncing an Iowa at near point-blank with just a little adjustment from the rudder. The BEST HACKUSATION I've ever had to date.

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15 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I recall once my Zao bouncing an Iowa at near point-blank with just a little adjustment from the rudder. The BEST HACKUSATION I've ever had to date.

Long ago I witnessed an enemy Zao player come around an island to charge the healthy Iowa and Montana of our team.  The Monty and Iowa with both of their 406mm turrets on their bows fired at the Zao in close range;  They had time for one salvo.  Zao took some damage, i.e. the 25mm bow eating 406mm AP Pens, but a lot of shots impacted on the center of the hull's armor belt and upper armor belt.  Zao also has a 30mm upper belt, which AP smaller than 430mm cannot Overmatch (if you Overmatch an armor section, there are zero bounce checks).  At the angle Zao was charging the two BBs at, it was enough for the armor belt / upper armor belt to bounce the 406mm AP.  The Zao player then sailed between our Iowa and Montana and proceeded to torp them with F3 torps, destroying both Battleships.  It's a dream everyone wants to pull off.

 

We killed the Zao after that, but the damage was done:  Tier IX-X BBs of our team were destroyed in a single attack by one ship.  I don't recall if we won or not, but it was well done by the Zao player.

 

If Zao tried that against 430mm+ armed BBs with AP ready, she would not have gotten far.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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5 hours ago, Litigo_1970 said:

Decided to dust off the Gearing after many months and finish off the Unique Upgrade mission. I smoked up just outside a cap and started working on a Petro who was parked next to an island to radar the cap. I worked on him at length, with good hits. Moved around the map to scout, then came back to work on him again. 

Because of the angles, he dodged every salvo of torps I sent his way, not unusual in itself. However, I was starting to get frustrated that I wasn't getting his health down. I kept checking my "hits" box number, and I was accumulating good hits, so I just kept working on him. It just happened that I didn't land any shots on any other ship that game, just the Petro.

After I was killed, I hovered over the "hit box" which indicated I had landed 183 hits on the Petro. It was only then that I realized that of those 183, all 183 were non penetrations. ALL OF THEM.

As the Petro was dead still,  and I was not maneuvering in my smoke, I literally put my aiming reticle on the superstructure at the center of the ship, and held the trigger down to cycle my guns. I realize after checking the armor models that Petro has a 50mm deck, and it seems likely I was somehow aiming at the deck in front of the superstructure rather that at the superstructure as I intended, but you would think that at the ~10km range I was firing at, RNG would  have distributed at least a few shells into the superstructure. 

I wasted an entire game raining completely useless shells onto a ship that appears to be 100% immune. Is this just the worst RNG in the history of the game, or is the Petro in fact completely immune to Gearing HE? If so, is the Petro immune to all DD HE? What's going on here?

 

 

The Petro is essentially immune to Gearing tapping on it from inside smoke. I use Gearing quite a bit, with her 16 Km torps and prosecute the Petros for hours in Clan Battles. Usually from outside her 12km radar reach which is  a death sentence if caught inside that zone and exposed.

Sometimes I have to fight two or three moskvas and other Radar ships in addition to the Petro. The entire enemy cruiser team just moves forward and sweeps me and anyone else OUT of any and all objectives. We are forced to fall back to the BB's to sink them.

Because of this I am already grinding and researching towards the Petro myself. It will be a one hell of a warship for that task of clearing and holding objectives from any DD in the game. The only way to get to the Petro is the laying of smoke cloud, circle around behind it and pepper it to stay undetected minding the 12km distance or more and launch torps when it charges the smoke. A little bit of trickery is needed to bring them down. And usually works because the other player is usually not very patient and want their kill NAOW.

I did develop another tactic which I wont disclose here that will get a petro dead regardless of radar etc. So they are not that immune.

Edited by xHeavy

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Petro shines very well in CB.  Get the RDF CO skill and you can drive towards a dd and then turn the radar on when you get spotted. The freeboard is low enough that it'll take Yamato shells to full pen you if you're angle proplery. I'm a follower of dicta Flamu: Start your position stern on towards the reds and angled away. That allows you to dictate the range and dis engage if youy have to. 

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Anyone who shoots gearing guns will find that at 12 to whatever limit distance the shells become oribital. Trying to drop them into a small moving changing position of a Petro Superstructure with AP is simply asking too much. You are generally sunk outright before your second or third barrage arrives around the enemy Petro from the sky.

In other words I need to find a DD that will shoot 12km or better and penetrate 25mm or better with AP. Preferably flat shooting rather than Orbital floating [edited] shells which ordinarily is not a problem in normal battles. And for all practical purposes gearing aint it. There will need to be another destroyer or light cruiser that behaves as fast as a destroyer to put some fire on the Petro. Otherwise its the same old 15 torp matrix from the Shimakaze which usually puts one or two into the Petro at a time. Death by a thousand holes...

The second thing is that radar needs some sort of counter. It is well known that chaff and strips of metal are fired to mess up the radar of the enemy in addition to radar detectors. The Germans had Metox until they became obsolete when Allied Radar wavelengths became too intense and small for those crude devices to hear.

 

Or you can just load up a Battle ship and YOLO Banzai ram a Petro taking it completely out of the battle early on. What a waste.

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3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

There's a lot of posts where people say they fired at a target's broadsides to get next to nothing.  What likely happened was they got trolled by the defending player milking bounce mechanics for all its worth.

I know when I started using the Navigator mod, I was amazed at how often what I thought was a broadside actually was 30 degrees or more off.

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