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GEOCHUCKGEO

MINELAYERS/MINESWEEPERS

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This has probably been discussed before, but I can't find it.   In some Battles, a Minelayer(s) can place a couple of dozen mines to keep enemy from access in certain parts of the map. On other Battles, a team deploys their Minsweeper(s) to clear a path to certain areas of the map. They (Minelayers) could be allowed a certain number to place, until those are either swept or made contact with a ship, then the supply replenishes. Armament could duplicate a destroyer, but without torpedoes, or rapid fire. Battles could also be played with both Layers and Sweepers, with Sweepers detecting mines somewhat like how approaching land is warned on the screen. Same system as launching a torpedo, only the mine remains stationary in the position it was deployed.   Laying team sees mines, opposing verbal/optical team gets warning they are in general area.  Just a thought.

 

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It's an interesting idea, definitely deserves some more thought. It could also give a new class of ship and separate tech trees for them. They might fall into the category of one trick pony though, either scoring large amounts of damage or none at all kinda thing, as a Minesweeper usually only had 1x4 inch gun, minimal AA and no torpedoes.

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The problem is getting the minelayer where you want the mines laid unnoticed, and the minesweeper in front of your fleet, undamaged. 

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1 hour ago, GEOCHUCKGEO said:

 Just a thought.

New content that makes the game more complex?... count me in!!!!

16 minutes ago, Umikami said:

The problem is getting the minelayer where you want the mines laid unnoticed, and the minesweeper in front of your fleet, undamaged. 

That's a tactical problem I would gladly try to face and solve

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Stealth torpedo DDs are going to be impacted the same way cowboys who drove their herd to train stations in the old west are when fences got put in.

trench warfare, where BBs are yelled to push through the minefields and the DDs following behind like soldiers behind a Sherman tank

C7073A18-B655-4CDE-8EC0-EA5DE7FA76E1.jpeg

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Minelayers would be cool! but as noted above, they'd be rather defenseless. Say you manage to see the end of the match but no one hits your mines? Not only would it take forever to progress to the next ship, your team would basically have to carry you.

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9 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

New content that makes the game more complex?... count me in!!!!

That's a tactical problem I would gladly try to face and solve

Well, IRL, they solved it by laying mines with submarines.

A more interesting tactical problem, and one that hasn't yet been solved, and supersedes all, is how to get your team to move forward when there's a threat, especially one they can't see.

 

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11 hours ago, GEOCHUCKGEO said:

This has probably been discussed before, but I can't find it.   In some Battles, a Minelayer(s) can place a couple of dozen mines to keep enemy from access in certain parts of the map. On other Battles, a team deploys their Minsweeper(s) to clear a path to certain areas of the map. They (Minelayers) could be allowed a certain number to place, until those are either swept or made contact with a ship, then the supply replenishes. Armament could duplicate a destroyer, but without torpedoes, or rapid fire. Battles could also be played with both Layers and Sweepers, with Sweepers detecting mines somewhat like how approaching land is warned on the screen. Same system as launching a torpedo, only the mine remains stationary in the position it was deployed.   Laying team sees mines, opposing verbal/optical team gets warning they are in general area.  Just a thought.

 

It's unlikely to be implemented because it's fundamentally boring and WG wants more action to attract more kids.

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11 hours ago, _BlackHawk4_ said:

They might fall into the category of one trick pony though, either scoring large amounts of damage or none at all kinda thing

One word:

 

Submarines

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1 hour ago, Skpstr said:

A more interesting tactical problem, and one that hasn't yet been solved, and supersedes all, is how to get your team to move forward when there's a threat, especially one they can't see.

That's why they created reducing/constricting maps in games (like Octagon). They can either implement a Commissar Kremlin bot ship to execute unpatriotic cowards who hide in the back lines.

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I for one would not have a problem with the tactical implications of mining as a form of war. However this is a arcade game and you will not have people patiently waiting for a sweeper to clear a path to a objective with a whole herd stacked behind them being sunk in detail. The sweeper in this game has a lifespan of seconds beyond being detected and would be munched on and defenseless.

OR... you might even be a Kremlin with 110,000 health and just bull through all the mines with the sheep following you to win. You would get sunk but be declared a hero. Eff the minesweep...

Although you can evolve a whole battle around a minesweeper but nothing will get done. Again this is a rather arcade game, somewhat simplified. Why do I play? Well... its something that has been evolving for years. So who knows. Ive focused on airdefense and acquiring ships capable of depth charging etc among other things and carefully picked the others to match the style of play I engage in. Sometimes you feed the bear and other times it gets you.

By the same token some maps are evolved to force a conclusion to the game problem whatever it might be otherwise it will be a game of hiding behind islands all day or whatever. Its not perfect.

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NF had mines on DDs and it added another dimension to the game. DDs with mines would rush to choke points, drop and try to escape. The mines were visible, but hard to dodge if you were moving fast.

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I think minelayers is a nice idea, perhaps with a long reload and a detectability system like a deep-water torpedo. But I cant see minesweepers in the game. I don't think that WG would add a new class of ships for this gimmick. 

Though I do think it would be cool to drop a mine off the back if an enemy were chasing you. 

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I can't see this being particularly successful, and I don't think it's a good addition.

Firstly, mines would further discourage pushing and aggression, along with far too many existing mechanics. I don't want that rare battleship who doesn't just go camp J10 to be even less likely to ever use the W key in the direction of the enemy.

Secondly, I don't think mines would be effective, and if they 'cost' your team an otherwise effective ship (say a torpedo for mine trade) they will be a simple detriment. Players simply don't move up into physical places where red team ships can go very frequently. Take a look at a heat map:

image.thumb.png.fb7e315584a816e1b8457bb50f64f8dd.png

Each side spends 99% of the time on its starting side of the map, any minelayer attempting to get that deep into the red team will simply be spotted and sunk, laying mines in your own 'territory' will probably be entirely ineffectual. Mines will simply inflict occasional damage on pushing enemies after flank collapses, if they're not very smart.

 

There's a reason minelaying was usually done completely separately to surface action, ideally running in at night and avoiding being within hours of the enemy, let alone within a 20 minute arcade game battle.

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13 hours ago, Umikami said:

The problem is getting the minelayer where you want the mines laid unnoticed, and the minesweeper in front of your fleet, undamaged. 

Oink... Minelayers are more a defensive weapon, they would follow the fleet, not be in front of the fleet... Once a cap grabbed, lay mines, defend, etc same with the base... Dude Umi Kami, best would be to join [PIG], you would improve your game play as well as cognitive skills. I can feel the Goltz in you. Let Me review your posts from now on. At least that. Goltz

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15 minutes ago, mofton said:

I can't see this being particularly successful, and I don't think it's a good addition.

Firstly, mines would further discourage pushing and aggression, along with far too many existing mechanics. I don't want that rare battleship who doesn't just go camp J10 to be even less likely to ever use the W key in the direction of the enemy.

Secondly, I don't think mines would be effective, and if they 'cost' your team an otherwise effective ship (say a torpedo for mine trade) they will be a simple detriment. Players simply don't move up into physical places where red team ships can go very frequently. Take a look at a heat map:

image.thumb.png.fb7e315584a816e1b8457bb50f64f8dd.png

Each side spends 99% of the time on its starting side of the map, any minelayer attempting to get that deep into the red team will simply be spotted and sunk, laying mines in your own 'territory' will probably be entirely ineffectual. Mines will simply inflict occasional damage on pushing enemies after flank collapses, if they're not very smart.

 

There's a reason minelaying was usually done completely separately to surface action, ideally running in at night and avoiding being within hours of the enemy, let alone within a 20 minute arcade game battle.

Oink... Hey, pig! Where did you get this map? What's the first line? Is it time? 0 10 20 mins? Please share! Goltz.

16 hours ago, GEOCHUCKGEO said:

This has probably been discussed before, but I can't find it.   In some Battles, a Minelayer(s) can place a couple of dozen mines to keep enemy from access in certain parts of the map. On other Battles, a team deploys their Minsweeper(s) to clear a path to certain areas of the map. They (Minelayers) could be allowed a certain number to place, until those are either swept or made contact with a ship, then the supply replenishes. Armament could duplicate a destroyer, but without torpedoes, or rapid fire. Battles could also be played with both Layers and Sweepers, with Sweepers detecting mines somewhat like how approaching land is warned on the screen. Same system as launching a torpedo, only the mine remains stationary in the position it was deployed.   Laying team sees mines, opposing verbal/optical team gets warning they are in general area.  Just a thought.

 

 

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Minelayers might be useful in scenarios that require the enemy to advance.  For example, historically the USN knew where the IJN would likely run the Tokyo Express and could easily have mined a good portion of the straights if minelayers had been readily available.  In this scenario one team must escort the transports while the other tries to stop them with mines and light warships.  The destroyers on the defending team would carry mines instead of depth charges (which almost all DDs carried).  

3 hours ago, xHeavy said:

OR... you might even be a Kremlin with 110,000 health and just bull through all the mines with the sheep following you to win. You would get sunk but be declared a hero.

That would be Hero of the Soviet Union.

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10 minutes ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Oink... Hey, pig! Where did you get this map? What's the first line? Is it time? 0 10 20 mins? Please share! Goltz.

Here: https://forum.worldofwarships.asia/topic/44899-where-players-mostly-go/

I think the top line is all together.

People have made a variety of these, usually by scraping data out of WOWS replays somehow.

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1 hour ago, Jakenator_1010 said:

But I cant see minesweepers in the game. I don't think that WG would add a new class of ships for this gimmick. 

Minelayers would also have the function of minesweepers, same ship handles all mine related stuff

1 hour ago, mofton said:

Secondly, I don't think mines would be effective, and if they 'cost' your team an otherwise effective ship (say a torpedo for mine trade) they will be a simple detriment. 

They won't be "costing" your team anything as the red team would have mirror ship type MM.

1 hour ago, mofton said:

 

Each side spends 99% of the time on its starting side of the map, any minelayer attempting to get that deep into the red team will simply be spotted and sunk, laying mines in your own 'territory' will probably be entirely ineffectual. Mines will simply inflict occasional damage on pushing enemies after flank collapses, if they're not very smart.

Maps are full of choke points, prime spots to lay mines. There are lots of opportunities to use minefields tactically... imagine kiting away the enemy into a minefield....

54 minutes ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Oink... Minelayers are more a defensive weapon, they would follow the fleet, not be in front of the fleet... Once a cap grabbed, lay mines, defend, etc same with the base... Goltz

This piggy knows how to use mines, read his book.

 

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58 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

This piggy knows how to use mines, read his book.

Oink! Indeed, 36 chapters on mines! Do you want a copy of "War is the Art of Killing"? Signed by Goltz with Umikami's blood. Goltz.

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3 hours ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Oink... Minelayers are more a defensive weapon, they would follow the fleet, not be in front of the fleet... Once a cap grabbed, lay mines, defend, etc same with the base... Dude Umi Kami, best would be to join [PIG], you would improve your game play as well as cognitive skills. I can feel the Goltz in you. Let Me review your posts from now on. At least that. Goltz

How do you get through doorways with a head that big?

If they could fill your inflated ego with helium you could be a big, fat, pig shaped blimp, carrying passengers in your mouth, which would at least shut you up.

Regardless of what they were designed to do, every ship type in the game is offensive, (though none are as offensive as you, pig baby!) DDs were never designed to attack BBs or CAs, certainly subs weren't, but with the game's time compression and speed boosts, as well as some total fantasy abilities, now everything attacks everything. 

So it would be with mine-layers, as in many matches they will never have time to be defensive. What they would be used for will be choke points and lanes of travel you know red ships will want to use. Plus dropping them from stealth as you run away with other ships, hoping the red team is chasing you. 

Go find a nice dark room and feel your own Goltz!

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5 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

They won't be "costing" your team anything as the red team would have mirror ship type MM.

I can't see them adding a 6th class after the first 4 main types and then submarines, that's a big burden on MM, and to be honest generating enough lines of minelayers/sweepers is probably pretty unproductive and hard.

I'd imagine them implemented as destroyers, but with a hull/weapon swap to mines instead of torpedoes. That seems more what OP seems to suggest, and would be in keeping with the new hybrids like Tone/Ise being CA/BB with that type matchmaking rather than having to also match making mirror up 'hybrids'.

I would be worried about having one on my team, and also disappointed to likely have one fewer enjoyable ship on the red team to fight if they had one instead, as it's not something you'll interact very much with as it likely stooges around the battlefield leaving random mines in places you'll probably never go.

5 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

Maps are full of choke points, prime spots to lay mines. There are lots of opportunities to use minefields tactically... imagine kiting away the enemy into a minefield....

Maps have chokepoints, but there's also pretty significant 'sticking to your own side' or even kiting. A minelayer might be able to go and lay mines in chokepoints, but by the time it gets to any on the red side, the reds are there, and there's a very good chance they'll never push. I can't remember the last time I went into the red side of the map without it being a steamroll stomp and I didn't take a narrow channel to get there when I did. I think a lot of people won't push into kiting ships, and kiting works best when you're 15km or more from the red team, not a few km in front dropping mines.

Overall I just can't see any successful minelaying in 90% of games, and the 10% it does work will probably be low impact, and just discourage pushing disproportionately to the threat. Which isn't fantastic for the game.

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