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Lancelot0001

WG went to the wrong way to balance CV. Again!

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From the new dev blog:https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/93 WG is considering to decrease the ability to damage DD with rocket planes

Would that save DD, or stop ppl complain about CV? I don't think so.

 

This game is based on spotting. And the most OP part of CV is its ability to Spot you, not its ability to make damages.

How many times that your ship (DD,BB or Cruiser) is spotted by planes and got focus fired?

How many times that your ship is directly killed by planes while no other enemy ships farm you?

How many times that you doge rockets, trops, or bombs while got citadel shots by enemy ships? 

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Honestly (IMO!) DD spotting is more disruptive because it lasts longer. CV spotting is intermittent at best.

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Honestly, if WG just had the planes from a CV spot ONLY for the CV player it would go a long way toward 'fixing' CVs. The CV itself (the ship) would spot normally.

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5 minutes ago, Spirit_of_76 said:

Honestly (IMO!) DD spotting is more disruptive because it lasts longer. CV spotting is intermittent at best.

One simple example that CV can spot better would be:

Let's say CV put a fighter from rocket planes in left corner of map to spot a few ships for 60 sec.

Then CV fly its rockets plane to right corner of map, stay there to spot as long as he wants. (Out of AA range while stay in spotting range)

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3 minutes ago, Lancelot0001 said:

One simple example that CV can spot better would be:

Let's say CV put a fighter from rocket planes in left corner of map to spot a few ships for 60 sec.

Then CV fly its rockets plane to right corner of map, stay there to spot as long as he wants. (Out of AA range while stay in spotting range)

I think it's probably very rare that this is an effective way to spot anything that can actually be hit and it costs the CV player way too much in other opportunities to loiter like that in general.

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WGs not gonna change the spotting mechanics they want the team shared spotting to prop up the bad battleship players that can't make the game work without it.

 that's at least 80 percent of players playing now, so yeah.....

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correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't a decent mid ground be a mechanic similar to the "new" radar mechanics? Planes spot you, 2 seconds later plane radios allies with position, 2 seconds after that allies can now "see" you. If planes get shot down allies immediately lose sight of ship.

 

This might not be a 100% fix for the CV unbalance, but it would help. I think the "new" radar mechanic has made radar less OP. Its more realistic but still allows the arcadiness of the game.

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32 minutes ago, Lancelot0001 said:

One simple example that CV can spot better would be:

Let's say CV put a fighter from rocket planes in left corner of map to spot a few ships for 60 sec.

Then CV fly its rockets plane to right corner of map, stay there to spot as long as he wants. (Out of AA range while stay in spotting range)

They can only fly one squadron at a time, so they are basically flying around with one air wing and can't use the other two.

In RTS, you could have up to 7 group's flying and 2 would be fighters. And you didn't have to attack all, or you could attack just a few. It had flexibility, but also meant spotting on a scale that was deadly.

But that depends on the CV player or the CV type.

If the CV type or the player are aggressive, then spotting was largely at fighter interception and attack by bombers.

If CV type or player was support, then it was scattered spotting with all plane types and attacks only of targets of opportunity.

Since RTS is gone, only the support type of tactics work for the start of match, and the aggressive ones near the end.

There are those rare occasions, but that is only in the case of a CV player recognizing the situation of ships operating out of position or too far apart.

Then it gets... interesting.

True, a squadron can fly about and spot all day, but it's just one. 

In RTS, it was many.

But, there were no rockets that struck like lightning and DDs exploding like a lit fart.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lancelot0001 said:

From the new dev blog:https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/93 WG is considering to decrease the ability to damage DD with rocket planes

Would that save DD, or stop ppl complain about CV? I don't think so.

 

This game is based on spotting. And the most OP part of CV is its ability to Spot you, not its ability to make damages.

How many times that your ship (DD,BB or Cruiser) is spotted by planes and got focus fired?

How many times that your ship is directly killed by planes while no other enemy ships farm you?

How many times that you doge rockets, trops, or bombs while got citadel shots by enemy ships? 

Remove CV ability to spot...and we are back to games being decided by which team has the stealthiest premium DD with the high point captain with concealment expert...

...that is not an improvement over CVs countering DDs.

Without planes, DDs have no counter.

1 hour ago, capncrunch21 said:

Honestly, if WG just had the planes from a CV spot ONLY for the CV player it would go a long way toward 'fixing' CVs. The CV itself (the ship) would spot normally.

The game is developed as follows:

BBs counter cruisers

DDs counter BBs

CVs counter DDs

Cruisers should (but dont) counter CVs.

The reason cruisers fail to counter CVs is rooted in WGs fundamental ignorance of fleet air defense and the capability of AA within the air defense doctrine.

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12 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Remove CV ability to spot...and we are back to games being decided by which team has the stealthiest premium DD with the high point captain with concealment expert...

...that is not an improvement over CVs countering DDs.

Without planes, DDs have no counter.

Actually, Daniel, without planes, the counter to DDs are other DDs.  Also, I don't think that "stealthiest premium DD" means squat.  There are many tech tree DDs that are every bit as stealthy as premium DDs.  Also, one doesn't need a high skill point captain to have CE.  Any player of DDs with the slightest inkling of what he's doing will select CE as his first 4 point skill for a 10 point captain for any DD that wants stealth, which is most DDs.

Also, when it comes to "spotting" with CVs and DDs, the way I put it is that CVs excel at scouting while DDs excel at spotting, where scouting means finding out where the enemy ships are heading, but not necessarily hanging around to keep them spotted.  And spotting means keeping enemy ships in sight so that friendly team mates can shoot at those enemies.  Spotting is usually best done by DDs because DD will naturally be able to linger in an area for longer periods of time than carrier planes.  While technically true that a carrier's planes could keep larger ships spotted indefinitely, no carrier player wants to do no damage in a battle just to allow the rest of his team to have all the fun attacking those enemy ships.

 

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2 hours ago, capncrunch21 said:

Honestly, if WG just had the planes from a CV spot ONLY for the CV player it would go a long way toward 'fixing' CVs. The CV itself (the ship) would spot normally.

The only ships that would help is DDs, and even then, it wouldn't help one of the biggest DD complaints, being spotted and struck early, because at that point, no ships are going to be able to hit the DD anyway.

When I'm playing CVs, the CAs and BBs I attack are already spotted by ships, that's how I know there's a target there. Same with DDs a lot of the time. (not counting the beginning of the match) I'm not wasting time flying around looking for DDs, unless a ship has spotted one, and I know where to go.

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Just make it so planes can only fly for a period of time before they have to return to the CV. Give them a range. All other ships have a range on their weapons... do the same for CV. 

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3 hours ago, Lancelot0001 said:

One simple example that CV can spot better would be:

Let's say CV put a fighter from rocket planes in left corner of map to spot a few ships for 60 sec.

Then CV fly its rockets plane to right corner of map, stay there to spot as long as he wants. (Out of AA range while stay in spotting range)

Go away from the planes? they have higher detection range than ships so you can see them and choose to sail in other direction to avoid sppoting

3 hours ago, Spirit_of_76 said:

Honestly (IMO!) DD spotting is more disruptive because it lasts longer. CV spotting is intermittent at best.

DD is even worse, since you can at least see the planes who are spotting you and you can try to shoot them down. This is much harder against a dd, unless you have radar and high fire rate ship

2 hours ago, Freelancerinc said:

correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't a decent mid ground be a mechanic similar to the "new" radar mechanics? Planes spot you, 2 seconds later plane radios allies with position, 2 seconds after that allies can now "see" you. If planes get shot down allies immediately lose sight of ship.

 

This might not be a 100% fix for the CV unbalance, but it would help. I think the "new" radar mechanic has made radar less OP. Its more realistic but still allows the arcadiness of the game.

This should be the correct solution to the spotting from planes. Dont know why WG is taking so much time in begin the testing

Also, im gonna remember to all people here that once you finished to complain about rockets, you are just gonna suffer from Midway HE dive bombers with legendary module. Good luck dodging that. So the real problem isnt the rocket planes, its the playerbase who still rush objetives alone or in ship with bad aa or no deffenses (dd without smokes) in a battle with CVs. 

And them they blame the cv. Intelligence +100

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23 minutes ago, USMC2145 said:

Just make it so planes can only fly for a period of time before they have to return to the CV. Give them a range. All other ships have a range on their weapons... do the same for CV. 

What would you propose that time limit be?

Either way, this would only affect maybe 5% of CV flights. Most of the time the CV flies directly to the target area, attacks once or twice then returns. There arnt that many times when a CV would fly for more than 2-3 minutes without attacking.

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3 hours ago, Spirit_of_76 said:

I think it's probably very rare that this is an effective way to spot anything that can actually be hit and it costs the CV player way too much in other opportunities to loiter like that in general.

Loitering with the active squadron for any ship other than a DD is generally a waste of time, but placing a fighter where it can spot ships pushing up is an extremely valuable tool.

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34 minutes ago, SirPent13 said:

Loitering with the active squadron for any ship other than a DD is generally a waste of time, but placing a fighter where it can spot ships pushing up is an extremely valuable tool.

Most of my fighter use is for spotting...

Place fighter 7 to 7.5 km away from enemy ships. Laugh as my team farms them.

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1 hour ago, USMC2145 said:

Just make it so planes can only fly for a period of time before they have to return to the CV. Give them a range. All other ships have a range on their weapons... do the same for CV. 

I like the time option better. That way, if you want more time to set up attack runs on squirrely ships, they (or your CV) need to be closer.

IMO, it could also help DDs survive beginning of the match, as planes would more or less have to go in, one shot, and leave.

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1 hour ago, Skpstr said:

The only ships that would help is DDs, and even then, it wouldn't help one of the biggest DD complaints, being spotted and struck early, because at that point, no ships are going to be able to hit the DD anyway.

When I'm playing CVs, the CAs and BBs I attack are already spotted by ships, that's how I know there's a target there. Same with DDs a lot of the time. (not counting the beginning of the match) I'm not wasting time flying around looking for DDs, unless a ship has spotted one, and I know where to go.

CV preventing ships from going dark to heal up is one of their strongest team utility.

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3 hours ago, Freelancerinc said:

correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't a decent mid ground be a mechanic similar to the "new" radar mechanics? Planes spot you, 2 seconds later plane radios allies with position, 2 seconds after that allies can now "see" you. If planes get shot down allies immediately lose sight of ship.

 

This might not be a 100% fix for the CV unbalance, but it would help. I think the "new" radar mechanic has made radar less OP. Its more realistic but still allows the arcadiness of the game.

This isn't a ridiculous idea.

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3 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

...and we are back to games being decided by which team has the stealthiest premium DD with the high point captain with concealment expert...

I disagree. To make your DD as stealthy as possible, all you need is a 10-point captain for CE. If you don't have one of those in a T6+ DD, that's mismanagement of your captain, fuelled by a bad assessment of the value of concealment in DDs.

Same goes for the concealment upgrade for T8+ DDs.

(note: if your concealment is deficient, but you know that and are unconcerned, such as a gunboat build, that's different)

I don't have any premium DDs, and playing Benson and Fletcher (5.8 conceal), Kitakaze (5.9 conceal), and Akizuki (6.1 conceal), I am very rarely outspotted, even though there are plenty of DDs in the lineup that could outspot me if they wanted to. (it's mindboggling that I'm outspotting Kageros and Yugumos)

That's all you need, a 10-pt. captain and 8k(?) credits per match for basic camo. If you're T8+, you also want 2 million credits for the concealment upgrade. 

And it doesn't even require you to grind upgrades for the ship, you can have that concealment while stock.

Yes, it takes time to grind the extra credits, but you can do it with any ship you like. And really, who leaves upgrade slots blank, for any ship? They're all important. (the ones commonly taken anyway)

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10 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

CV preventing ships from going dark to heal up is one of their strongest team utility.

I can see where that could be an issue, but I don't see it happening often. 

Usually, the CV only prevents the ship from going dark until it's finished attacking, in which case the ship isn't healing up anyway. 

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5 minutes ago, Skpstr said:
3 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

...and we are back to games being decided by which team has the stealthiest premium DD with the high point captain with concealment expert...

I disagree. To make your DD as stealthy as possible, all you need is a 10-point captain for CE. If you don't have one of those in a T6+ DD, that's mismanagement of your captain, fuelled by a bad assessment of the value of concealment in DDs.

That wasn't really a serious reply from Daniel.  He's anti-stealth so anything that removes stealth is a good thing for him.  His reply was just a rationalization.

2 hours ago, Skpstr said:

The only ships that would help is DDs, and even then

It would help all ships, but mostly it would be proportional to the amount they depend on stealth.  We've seen no shortage of players complain about CV spotting and they aren't all DD players.  Also, we know the competitive players are complaining about CV spotting and that isn't a DD issue there. 

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9 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

That wasn't really a serious reply from Daniel.  He's anti-stealth so anything that removes stealth is a good thing for him.  His reply was just a rationalization

True, not a serious reply.

Im not ANTI stealth...just pointing out that WG sees stealth as something that needs a counter (see radar and planes). Because without those counters...its down to ship characteristics and captain skills alone...

...which has been loudly protested by battleship captains (i.e. the big whales).

11 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

We've seen no shortage of players complain about CV spotting and they aren't all DD players. 

I see more people complaining in random battles about the LACK of spotting...

12 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

lso, we know the competitive players are complaining about CV spotting and that isn't a DD issue there

Yes, and its a SERIOUS and game breaking problem in competitive play...because of the coordination that is absent from random battles.

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4 hours ago, SilverPhatShips said:

WGs not gonna change the spotting mechanics they want the team shared spotting to prop up the bad battleship players that can't make the game work without it.

 that's at least 80 percent of players playing now, so yeah.....

Yep, there's a big synergy between the CV and the backline BB player.  WG knows what they are doing!

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