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In defense of Riga

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So once I finally got done with Tallin, I was very pleased with Riga's performance. She's everything I expected out of an OP russian heavy cruiser. I can literally sit toe-to-to with same tier BBs and come out on top. I can charge caps and kill multiple ships. I can absolutely slaughter lower tier, and some same tier cruisers, and hold my own against all others. 

When I saw some forum posts talking about how bad Riga is, it left me scratching my head. She's magic. Dunno. Is there anyone else who really enjoys Riga, or am I nuts?

 

I know one game doesnt prove anything, but I just had a good one and wanted to share. In this game, I bow-tanked the alsace until she was dead, then bow tanked a georgia, kitakaze, and neptune until the GA died and I went dark. Tanky as all hell. Note the 2.5million potential damage. In a T9 cruiser. I mean. Damn, people, that's a stronk ship!

 

image.thumb.png.a15f9c783787b036b308cfc539b33ff9.pngimage.thumb.png.fc6412e32841e1c4eb1c8618baffea61.pngimage.thumb.png.82f8dcc2eb751ffe357ceca010b4bc28.png 

Edited by mrieder79
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I enjoyed my grind through Riga quite a bit (although I really disliked my Tallinn grind even with being able to use a 19 point captain for the entire grind while it was still early access). For me, it mostly came down to the guns and tankiness, neither one of which Tallinn did well imo. 

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I am a COOP main.  So, the Riga isn't all that great.  No torpedoes.  The 220 guns aren't anything special?  I could rack up huge numbers against noobs too.......  The bots don't miss.  And, honestly, the Riga grind isn't going to be any fun for me....!

And, the tier 10 isn't anything better than the Riga....???  I've only 16 COOP battles in her and the most I've killed is three.  Avg 627 XP and a 1.86 destruct rate.....  Avg potential damage is 491,388. 

So far, I just don't see a monster.......

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1 hour ago, mrieder79 said:

So once I finally got done with Tallin, I was very pleased with Riga's performance. She's everything I expected out of an OP russian heavy cruiser. I can literally sit toe-to-to with same tier BBs and come out on top. I can charge caps and kill multiple ships. I can absolutely slaughter lower tier, and some same tier cruisers, and hold my own against all others. 

When I saw some forum posts talking about how bad Riga is, it left me scratching my head. She's magic. Dunno. Is there anyone else who really enjoys Riga, or am I nuts? 

Riga seems like food to me. Come back in a 100 games and tell us what you think.

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I'm glad you like the Riga, still haven't worked my way up to her. I read the part about you bow tanking an Alsace which I did find odd. As someone who loves the Alsace I'm confused how you weren't burned to death, which is something the old girl does quite well. I assume he just kept firing AP instead of switching to fiery baguettes or angling a bit to get his secondaries working.

Regardless, impressive results.

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Having played through the line, I initially enjoyed the Riga, but honestly I feel like that was just because it was actually an ok ship after the dumpster fire that is the Tallinn. As i got more games in her I liked her less and less.

Note that I ground through it before the latest set of changes, nerfing concealment but buffing reload.

So here's the thing. It inherits all of Moskva's weaknesses, but few of the strengths.

What does it have going for it? Strong AP, near stealth radar, and marginally improved pen angles.

But really, are these advantages? It's AP is good, sure, but it's still inferior to Moskva. Yes, its a T9 vs a T10, but it should have already been balanced by the significantly longer reload. Riga reload is 12.3 with the reload mod, Moskva goes as low as 9.11. There should been either less alpha/penetration/velocity or longer reload, not both. Not to mention weaker HE alpha and significantly worse HE fire chance. So you're dis-incentivized to use your HE, but your AP isn't that rewarding. Not a good combination.

AP angles. Sure, they're improved, but realistically all they do is maybe give you one more shell pen out of like 3. I'm pulling these number out of thin air, but think about it. Normal AP has a chance to bounce at 45 degrees with a guaranteed bounce at 60. USN CA AP only starts the chances at 60. So a shell that would have autobounced for any other ship will have only a slight chance to bounce on a USN CA. Then look at what the RU CA line has. 55-65. At 60 degrees its no longer guaranteed, sure, but you're already reaching the end of the range so the probability of a bounce is still high. Or if you strike at 55 degrees, sure, you're guaranteed something other than a bounce, but the angle is so shallow that normal AP probably would have penned anyways,

Then there's the dispersion. Running Aiming Systems mod 1 at 16.3km Riga has functionally the same dispersion that Moskva has at 19.4km. But that should be fine right? You get better dispersion up close. But is that really that useful? Cruiser's are already fairly accurate anyways, so that bonus is very small, while trying to hit targets far away is noticeably more difficult in Riga compared to Moskva at the same range.

And there's the matter of getting close.

You share Moskva's terrible turning circle and high citadel. So once you go in, you're staying in. The issue is surviving that. Sure, you have an icebreaker and a 32mm+ deck and upper belt. But it's 35mm, as opposed to 50mm on Moskva. This means that if you run into Shikishima, she can still overmatch you. More critically, that means that 220mm guns or larger will still score HE pens, instead of shattering like they do on Moskva. So if you face a Mosvka, unless he potatos and gives broadside you're getting burned down easily. If you face a mirror Riga, you'll both burn each other down with RNGesus deciding the victor, and even then the winner is going to be critically low on health. If you run into a Henri, he will just laugh. You are also vulnerable to CLs and IJN 100mm gunboats equipping IFHE, since they achieve 37mm of pen. SO combine this with your terrible maneuverability, and they will just absolutely shred you. Which means that if you see a Akizuki-Harugumo, Chapayev-Nevsky, or Cleveland-Wooster, you are forced to stay back or get farmed.

And when you stick back, there that poor dispersion striking again.

You have radar, but it's short duration and your long reload means that usually you get only 1 salvo in, or 2 if you start preaimed.

You have poor turret traverse, so you cannot quickly traverse onto a DD you've spotted, all the more critical considering your 15s vs 30s radar. You have poor traverse, but unlike Petro you do not have 360 turrets to make up for it.

So in summary, we have a cruiser that is supposed to have good AP at the cost of poor HE that doesn't really have that good of AP, that's meant to get in close and is dis-incentivized from staying back that doesn't have the durability to do so.

Funnily enough I still did okay in Riga with a 56% WR compared to my 52% in Moskva. Though I chalk that up to Moskva being my first T10 and being a worse player at the time. Then there's my Petro where my unlocking her coincided with MM giving me a 5 game streak of getting stomped, tanking my overall WR in her.

At the end of the day, I'd rather be in Moskva than Petro, and especially Riga.

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7 hours ago, Jolly_Rodgered said:

I'm glad you like the Riga, still haven't worked my way up to her. I read the part about you bow tanking an Alsace which I did find odd. As someone who loves the Alsace I'm confused how you weren't burned to death, which is something the old girl does quite well. I assume he just kept firing AP instead of switching to fiery baguettes or angling a bit to get his secondaries working.

Regardless, impressive results.

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Yeah. He stuck with AP. I was really, really, really, really relieved that he did! lol. 

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Riga has the same problem as Petro:  If you angle against their AP you effectively neuter their damage output.  Like all cruisers, if you catch their sides you can blap them.  All the Russian CAs really have going for them is insane AP; their HE DPM is abysmal.  If you angle, all they can do is tickle your superstructure until you get around to deleting them. 

Now if the other team is potato-heavy and sailing around broadside in straight lines, Russian CAs will have a field day.  But beyond that?  Meh.

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1 hour ago, Uncle_Lou said:

Riga has the same problem as Petro:  If you angle against their AP you effectively neuter their damage output.  Like all cruisers, if you catch their sides you can blap them.  All the Russian CAs really have going for them is insane AP; their HE DPM is abysmal.  If you angle, all they can do is tickle your superstructure until you get around to deleting them. 

Now if the other team is potato-heavy and sailing around broadside in straight lines, Russian CAs will have a field day.  But beyond that?  Meh.

Riga's AP isn't even that insane, with worse shell velocity, alpha, and pen than Moskva, all while giving up significant firestarting capacity and somewhat less of HE DPM. While being significantly more vulnerable to HE spam from CLs and IJN gunboats running IFHE.

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Dagger-Enjoyed reading this. I have unlocked but not purchased Riga. I have over 800 battles in Moskva and was wondering how drivers compared theirs to the Riga. In my experience, Petro in an open water face off can take a Moskva.

What captain skills do you have on Riga and have you unlocked Petro yet ?

I have the DM but don't want to go down that line to the Nevsky since I don't care for torps on Russian cruisers that much.

 

Edited by Ericson38

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On 11/4/2020 at 8:42 PM, Asym_KS said:

I am a COOP main.  So, the Riga isn't all that great.  No torpedoes.  The 220 guns aren't anything special?  I could rack up huge numbers against noobs too.......  The bots don't miss.  And, honestly, the Riga grind isn't going to be any fun for me....!

And, the tier 10 isn't anything better than the Riga....???  I've only 16 COOP battles in her and the most I've killed is three.  Avg 627 XP and a 1.86 destruct rate.....  Avg potential damage is 491,388. 

So far, I just don't see a monster.......

I also play mainly co-op and Riga is great and Petro is AWESOME!

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28 minutes ago, Ericson38 said:

Dagger-Enjoyed reading this. I have unlocked but not purchased Riga. I have over 800 battles in Moskva and was wondering how drivers compared theirs to the Riga. In my experience, Petro in an open water face off can take a Moskva.

What captain skills do you have on Riga and have you unlocked Petro yet ?

I have the DM but don't want to go down that line to the Nevsky since I don't care for torps on Russian cruisers that much.

 

I unlocked Petro, but haven't really touched her. Just honestly not that fun of a shop imo. And can't even take her out in CBs because our clan can't get enough members on at the same time and when we do I'm on CV duty. 

I just used my Moskva captain when I ground the line, so PT, EL, AR, JoaT, EM, SI, FP, CE. 

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1 hour ago, WM1957 said:

I also play mainly co-op and Riga is great and Petro is AWESOME!

Awesome is a Munchen.  Awesome is a Fiji.   Awesome is a DM.   Perspective and play style differences in COOP.   Since the earlier post, I have the Petro and TBH, she's OK in COOP.   I don't see the monster they keep talking about and I'm a pretty good shot........  Both are "good" ships but, I just can't see a meta reference in either....

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13 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Awesome is a Munchen.  Awesome is a Fiji.   Awesome is a DM.   Perspective and play style differences in COOP.   Since the earlier post, I have the Petro and TBH, she's OK in COOP.   I don't see the monster they keep talking about and I'm a pretty good shot........  Both are "good" ships but, I just can't see a meta reference in either....

High pen, slow reload cruiser guns are not as useful in coop, unless you can get to a flank.  At which point, you can do whatever you want to whatever you want.

The bow in meta of the toasters limits you opportunities though.

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