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Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite

Replace Random Game With a Balanced Public Game

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The largest problem with this game right now is the 'random' game. Its becoming increasingly common to find yourself in a heavily lopsided game and it ruins the fun. You have plenty of data to use in establishing a balanced game so do it! I'm exhausted and frustrated from getting into games where there are unicum players on one team and the other team has people that seemingly don't even know what is going on. Increasingly people are playing at tier 10 who are just "sort of there" - they don't seem to understand how the game works, and other people who do shouldn't be punished because of bad or ignorant players. People should always have a decent chance of winning, but this game is starting to show that often the outcome is decided before it started due to an absurd level of skill mismatch.

You don't do this because you think it would drive people away from the game due to longer queue time? I think you lose more people from the horrible game balance as it is, and people wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer for a much more balanced game. People love close matches when they happen.

  • Highly skilled players shouldn't get placed in a game without equally highly skilled players on the other team
  • Low skilled players shouldn't get placed in a game without equally low skilled players on the other team
  • Teams should have equal count of divisions on them (no team should have a division where the other doesn't)

You have so much data you can use for this to determine a given players "placement score":

  • Clan rank if they are in one
  • Tier experience
  • Win percentile in their queued ship
  • Win percentile overall
  • Ranked games rank
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2 minutes ago, Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite said:

I think you lose more people from the horrible game balance

MM is the scapegoat not the culprit...  You should be making thread against "Power creep for profit."

Power creep for profit affects game balance... MM magnifies it... WOWS Devs try to regulate it so that it can "make power creep for profit fit."


On my second point, "skilled MM" is a game killer.  Every company in the industry knows it.

Its not a gamble WOWS is willing to make at this time (especially when CVs and other in-game elements are more detrimental to the growth and stability  of the game).

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12 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

Wait times would balloon which is why this will not be implemented.

Fine by me and I think many would be fine with this. It also might not be that bad. Gotta keep in mind that they are actively losing people due to the severe unbalanced games.

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39 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

MM is the scapegoat not the culprit...  You should be making thread against "Power creep for profit."

Power creep for profit affects game balance... MM magnifies it... WOWS Devs try to regulate it so that it can "make power creep for profit fit."


On my second point, "skilled MM" is a game killer.  Every company in the industry knows it.

Its not a gamble WOWS is willing to make at this time (especially when CVs and other in-game elements are more detrimental to the growth and stability  of the game).

This post is mostly related and directed toward player skill balancing. What is the relationship between player skill balance and "power creep for profit"? Another way of asking - is a garbage player in a given powerful recent ship the same in a game as a super unicum player in that given powerful recent ship?

Since players can choose what ships they have, and which they play, therefore both teams can have such ships, how does it affect game balance since both teams can have such ships? How does MM magnify this? What is the regulation?

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2 minutes ago, Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite said:

This post is mostly related and directed toward player skill balancing.

Pssst... That is the definition of "Skill MM"

I covered why skill MM is a game killer... While, informing you in the my O P (to summarize)

  • You can advocate for power creep ships or balance MM...
    • Pick one or the other... You can't have both, you can't have them both and expect a "balanced" MMO product.
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55 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

Wait times would balloon which is why this will not be implemented.

This, skill balancing would work but what stat(s) to use is a question and anything chosen could be biased by other factors. Some one that plays almost all low tiers jumping into a tier 8 premium will not be as good as their WR and other stats would suggest. On the flip side you could have someone who plays almost all high tiers but is mediocre would actually be better than their stats would suggest for low tier matches.

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46 minutes ago, Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite said:

Gotta keep in mind that they are actively losing people due to the severe unbalanced games.

They are actively losing players for poor developemental and marketing choices.

CV Unwork.
Such as releasing horrendous, awful to play lines like Vermont's.
The scammy, RNG lootbox event's surrounding them. I'll throw Puerto Rico under the bus here too.

Prioritisation of russian "paper" ships over other nations (theres five T10 russian cruisers, thats more T10s then most nations have of all classes!)

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I run potatoalert routinely and I am skeptical that MM is to blame - would like to see some statistical data on that. I have a suspicion - hypothesis - that moves made by each team early on lead to a cascading steamrolling in the rest of the match. Average player win rates on each team probably correlate but I think it is weak. Average damage per team appears to be a better predictor of match outcome than win rate. I haven't collected any data and tried to analyze it, these are just my impressions after many months of using potatoalert. Anyway, just a hunch and/or guess I'll toss out there.

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1 hour ago, Navalpride33 said:

Pssst... That is the definition of "Skill MM"

I covered why skill MM is a game killer... While, informing you in the my O P (to summarize)

  • You can advocate for power creep ships or balance MM...
    • Pick one or the other... You can't have both, you can't have them both and expect a "balanced" MMO product.

Once again, what is the relation between 'power creep ships' and skill balanced mm? Why can't you have both? Why can't a company have new things which may or may not be better than previous things while having skill matching?

You seem to think that skill MM is a game killer because "everyone in the industry knows this?" Why is it a game killer?

Edited by Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite

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The majority of the player base just wants to drive around aimlessly, play shooty botes and not care for objectives or winning.

Can't blame MM for players not willing to invest the time to learn the game & it's mechanics.

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1 hour ago, Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite said:

Fine by me and I think many would be fine with this. It also might not be that bad. Gotta keep in mind that they are actively losing people due to the severe unbalanced games.

The feel losing people for whom this is a problem is less of an issue than losing people that don't want to wait around for a game to start.

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11 minutes ago, Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite said:

 

You seem to think that  Know skill MM is a game killer because "everyone in the industry knows this?" Why is it a game killer? Google it.. Dont take my word for it

From an economic POV.. Its not profitable... To many game titles are gone because of skill base MM,  to many games lost profit from it, compared to not implement it. 

In other words, its unsustainable for future stability. 

Now two game killing elements having

  • Skill MM
    • AND
  • Power creep for profit ships/in-game elements.

You're asking for to much company instability.

 

 

Edited by Navalpride33
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27 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

From an economic POV.. Its not profitable... To many game titles are gone because of skill base MM,  to many games lost profit from it, compared to not implement it. 

In other words, its unsustainable for future stability. 

Now two game killing elements having

  • Skill MM
    • AND
  • Power creep for profit ships/in-game elements.

You're asking for to much company instability.

 

 

OK I googled it and I pretty much found the opposite. What I found is that the most popular games out there such as Modern Warfare and COD will use SBMM. I also read that everyone prefers it unless it can be abused by smurf accounts which it wouldn't in WoWs due to numerous obvious factors. So to put it in simple terms to help you understand, it is not the case that "everyone knows that SBMM kills games" but the opposite because it makes the play better.

Now, you have twice failed to answer simple questions about the things you have jumped to conclusions about (or otherwise made strange causational statements) so I'm going to have to assume you are either ignorant, a forum troll, or both, and I won't be replying to any more of your content. Maybe YOU are the one that needs to spend more time googling before you hit the keys....

Edited by Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite

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8 hours ago, Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite said:

OK I googled it and I pretty much found the opposite. What I found is that the most popular games out there such as Modern Warfare and COD will use SBMM. I also read that everyone prefers it unless it can be abused by smurf accounts which it wouldn't in WoWs due to numerous obvious factors. 

2 games out of how many that gone out of business?

I never said SBMM is not an option.. But its a HUGE gamble to the developer...

COD and MW are doing other things to subsidize skill base MM on their platform.

Edited by Navalpride33
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10 hours ago, RipNuN2 said:

Wait times would balloon which is why this will not be implemented.

I wouldn't mind waiting a couple of minutes xtra if it produced a good result. But that is a valve that the dev can place wherever it wants: %matchmaking sophistication improvement v. %wait-time increase.

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9 hours ago, Akeno017 said:

They are actively losing players for poor developemental and marketing choices.

CV Unwork.
Such as releasing horrendous, awful to play lines like Vermont's.
The scammy, RNG lootbox event's surrounding them. I'll throw Puerto Rico under the bus here too.

Prioritisation of russian "paper" ships over other nations (theres five T10 russian cruisers, thats more T10s then most nations have of all classes!)

I thought it was a Russian company. Wait, isn't it?

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3 hours ago, EXIT_TO_PORT said:

 

Many other players would not want long waits. Blowouts might be lessened by it but would also still occur regularly anyway. SBMM is not a panacea. 

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3 hours ago, RipNuN2 said:

Many other players would not want long waits. Blowouts might be lessened by it but would also still occur regularly anyway. SBMM is not a panacea. 

Shoot i hated the wait times i ran into when i played randoms so bad it was one of the few major reasons i quit playing randoms.

Fyi waiting for 5-7 minutes just to get into a game is a no go for me. The longest i waited was 15 minutes.

 

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And another weekend begins with horrendously incompetent and strategically clueless players sailing broadside, running to the back line, or just performing a cringeworthy YOLO in tier 10 games with a division of unicum players on the other team. Thanks Wargaming. Real fun.

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23 minutes ago, Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite said:

And another weekend begins with horrendously incompetent and strategically clueless players sailing broadside, running to the back line, or just performing a cringeworthy YOLO in tier 10 games with a division of unicum players on the other team. Thanks Wargaming. Real fun.

Are you saying that you don't like that, sarcastically, or you've had a long crappy week and it was good to get back to playing hard for the weekend??

How many battles did it take to detect the tendencies? Could you tell it was Friday the 1st battle, or did it take 8 or 10 before the slaughter string was established/

Was it statistically sound, or just your feelings?? Because sometimes i'm playing ok, and don't realize it because everybody on both teams is having a weekend too.

Did you feel you were playing like everybody else, better or worse? Or could you tell??

I want to help.... 

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14 hours ago, Spud_butt said:

Are you saying that you don't like that, sarcastically, or you've had a long crappy week and it was good to get back to playing hard for the weekend??

How many battles did it take to detect the tendencies? Could you tell it was Friday the 1st battle, or did it take 8 or 10 before the slaughter string was established/

Was it statistically sound, or just your feelings?? Because sometimes i'm playing ok, and don't realize it because everybody on both teams is having a weekend too.

Did you feel you were playing like everybody else, better or worse? Or could you tell??

I want to help.... 

It was sarcasm.

The tendencies were immediate and I could tell it was Friday the first battle. Either I'm on a team that is steamrolling or I'm on the one being steamrolled.

It was not statistically sound. I've started checking to see how bad one team is compared to the other. It isn't balanced at all because there is no balancing mechanism (hence this thread). The worst games are when unicum players are in a div and if my team has a div it is just a mashup of horrendous players.

I have been playing mostly like myself, true to my own personal statistics. I'm no unicum but I'm also no 43%er - I like to think I'm a decent player. However I'm very active and becoming practiced in choice ships. I've noticed when I witness really bad play by a bad player to the detriment of my own team they aren't practiced and typically just blame shift in a total nonsensical way. Typically they are just a bad player and will never improve. Now I could deal with their existence if both teams have an equal amount of bad players, but that isn't what happens.

Research has shown that SBMM increases the quality of the game - people that claim that "its known to be a game killer" are simply wrong because some of the most successful match based games use it and have used it for some time.

I'm not trying to just sit here and complain, or to find people to complain with me. I'm trying to explain what the worst experience in the game is for me, and others like me, and why Wargaming should see it as something to be improved. I have met a good number of players that stopped playing this game over time because of this issue. If I quit playing this game it will also be because of this issue.

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9 hours ago, Mad_Hatter_Cheetah_Kite said:

It was sarcasm.

The tendencies were immediate and I could tell it was Friday the first battle. Either I'm on a team that is steamrolling or I'm on the one being steamrolled.

It was not statistically sound. I've started checking to see how bad one team is compared to the other. It isn't balanced at all because there is no balancing mechanism (hence this thread). The worst games are when unicum players are in a div and if my team has a div it is just a mashup of horrendous players.

I have been playing mostly like myself, true to my own personal statistics. I'm no unicum but I'm also no 43%er - I like to think I'm a decent player. However I'm very active and becoming practiced in choice ships. I've noticed when I witness really bad play by a bad player to the detriment of my own team they aren't practiced and typically just blame shift in a total nonsensical way. Typically they are just a bad player and will never improve. Now I could deal with their existence if both teams have an equal amount of bad players, but that isn't what happens.

Research has shown that SBMM increases the quality of the game - people that claim that "its known to be a game killer" are simply wrong because some of the most successful match based games use it and have used it for some time.

I'm not trying to just sit here and complain, or to find people to complain with me. I'm trying to explain what the worst experience in the game is for me, and others like me, and why Wargaming should see it as something to be improved. I have met a good number of players that stopped playing this game over time because of this issue. If I quit playing this game it will also be because of this issue.

thank you.

my level of frustration with MM has reached critical mass, and it's not about the numbers, it's about how it feels to be in a string of slaughter losses. If i wasn't trying to improve, and learn the game a little better, it wouldn't bother me, but then i would part of the problem.

my son quit this game, because of slaughter losses, and CVs. he's 30, and has been really, really good in every game he plays. every now and then he asks me if it's better. I have to tell him no, i'm getting a bit better but the game play is pretty much the same.

spud

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image.thumb.png.587a245c2fd25dc436354afaa871f3fa.png

Once again it is very easy to see that a single division of highly skilled players completely swings the balance of the game in their favor. When this type of matching happens the one with a division ends up coordinated and the other one simply isn't. Its a loss before it begins. This game was so bad that I considered just exiting to port to save myself the time....

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Divisions needs to either go to a special mode for only divisions or be reduced to 2. The other day play a match, reds 2 or 3 division of 3 players each. Look at my team, one division of 2 and other of the same amount...that not fun, speccially when the 3 divison is raining HE on you.

Some class restriction like only one ship allowed in division should be implemented

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