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SeaRaptor

First Look: Tier VIII Premium Japanese Cruiser Tone

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The boffins are starting to experiment with hybrid ship designs. What does that mean? I'm so glad you asked. Let's talk about Tier VIII Premium Japanese cruiser Tone and I'll explain.

 

 

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+1 for Vocabulary use... 

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The "Tone" is set for a new era.

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This ship can be abused yes. In case you didn't know, the triple Tone divisions have been seen on the Asian server multiple times for the past few days. They basically slaughter everything with torpedo bombers.

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This begs the question of whether the mechanics chosen for the CV rework were chosen, at least in part, to get these ships into the game. 

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Also, a no-CV/no enemy Tone game with a 2-3 Tone division effectively produces a game where your side has a CV and the other does not.  

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On 11/2/2020 at 8:39 PM, Pugilistic said:

This begs the question of whether the mechanics chosen for the CV rework were chosen, at least in part, to get these ships into the game. 

It wouldn't surprise me.

 

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On 11/3/2020 at 2:30 AM, _Thanagor_ said:

This ship can be abused yes. In case you didn't know, the triple Tone divisions have been seen on the Asian server multiple times for the past few days. They basically slaughter everything with torpedo bombers.

arguably RTS mechanics of the old CVs were more suited to hybrids, because simultaneous hull/plane control was far more flexible. For example an RTS GZ player could activate hydro, change hull direction, direct an air squadron to drop torpedos, and select manual secondaries, all at the same time. Rework CVs do not have these advanced options.

Rework gameplay feels much more like some crude code cobbled together for cruise missiles. Maybe we will see them some day.

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On 11/2/2020 at 8:41 PM, Pugilistic said:

Also, a no-CV/no enemy Tone game with a 2-3 Tone division effectively produces a game where your side has a CV and the other does not.  

Kinda. You are basically trading 3 CAs to get  rough capabilities of 1 weak CV. The good news is Tone's strikes are much easier to stop than than a normal CV because she has no backup squadrons to pad the attack. The planes in the air are all Tone (and Ise) have and there is only one wave of them. There are no reserves. Anything she loses she has to regen, and the regen is quite slow. 

I'm less concerned about the striking power than the spotting. Even for that it won't matter much in randoms (and not at all in co-op) because very few players make good use of the information. Honestly, I think they will offer an interesting playstyle but be very underwhelming in terms of damage. 

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On 11/2/2020 at 8:30 PM, _Thanagor_ said:

This ship can be abused yes. In case you didn't know, the triple Tone divisions have been seen on the Asian server multiple times for the past few days. They basically slaughter everything with torpedo bombers.

1) Ugh.

2) No surprise.

3) Ugh again.

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On 11/2/2020 at 3:18 PM, Admiral_Hippo said:

Are you Italian by any chance? Just asking:)

Negative.

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On 11/2/2020 at 7:30 PM, _Thanagor_ said:

They basically slaughter everything with torpedo bombers.

I have heard multiple versions of how these ships work.  Some have suggested that the planes do not return to the cruiser for re-arm (as they would to a carrier).  That puts a hard cap on the # of effective strikes they can launch over the course of a game, if true.  If they do re-arm, then it's a more difficult equation to balance.

On 11/2/2020 at 7:39 PM, Pugilistic said:

This begs the question of whether the mechanics chosen for the CV rework were chosen, at least in part, to get these ships into the game. 

I doubt they were chosen exclusively for that purpose - there are a LOT more carrier designs than hybrid designs available to draw from - but it's certainly a nice benefit from WG's perspective.  Assuming they can make it work.

On 11/2/2020 at 7:41 PM, Pugilistic said:

Also, a no-CV/no enemy Tone game with a 2-3 Tone division effectively produces a game where your side has a CV and the other does not.  

I'm not sure I necessarily agree.  The striking power of these torpedo bombers against, say, a Tier X battleship is hilariously laughable.  Their regen is long, and there are questions as to whether or not the planes return to the cruiser or not.  A CV has far, FAR more planes, better striking options, and (probably) better plane regen rates than Tone ever will.

To me, the cross-map striking power of whatever type of bombers Tone ends up with is far less impactful than the spotting she can provide in games without carriers at all.  It's historical - she was commonly used as a scout cruiser, as evidenced at Midway - but it isn't necessarily good for game balance.  

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Would seem to me that these ships should be given the same Divisioning rules as CVs..    That would stop at the minimum the triple hybrid divisions..        

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For me it's all about the spotting. I could care less if he launches a single torpedo squadron which will take (hopefully) a long time to regenerate. If he can keep that squadron aloft and just keep spotting everything for his team that could be an issue. However in return he can't operate his ship. Supposedly the Tone has been around for a while and I've only recently seen one; haven't seen one since either. It was sailing in a straight line, I guess playing with his planes, in the open and got blapped. So you trade the limited strike potential and spotting for a useful cruiser with good guns and torpedoes. Not sure if that's a trade I want to make.  

I'm sure WG will sell a bunch of these regardless. 

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On 11/2/2020 at 5:39 PM, Pugilistic said:

This begs the question of whether the mechanics chosen for the CV rework were chosen, at least in part, to get these ships into the game. 

It makes zero sense for me.

If we wanted Hybrid Ships, they would have been super easy to do in the RTS CV Days.

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On 11/2/2020 at 2:37 PM, SeaRaptor said:

The boffins are starting to experiment with hybrid ship designs. What does that mean? I'm so glad you asked. Let's talk about Tier VIII Premium Japanese cruiser Tone and I'll explain.

 

 

I REALLY dislike what CIG is doing here.

IJN cruisers, especially aviation cruisers, were not carrying attack planes. They were scout plane carriers. Their doctrine was to have carriers have fighters and attack planes while the cruisers that escorted the fleet would be responsible for scouting.

The BB hybrids were to carry dive bombers which could not land back on the BB..they had to land on carriers or land bases. It was a last option effort to have increased air power after having lost so many of their carriers... and by then they understood battleships were not the deciding factor in naval battles...air power was. That's why the oldest BBs were converted to hybrid carriers.

 

WG should have introduced only the hybrid cruiser line and given them scout planes. Right-clicking on a map grid in map view should order the scout plane to that grid once you launch it (unlimited use consumable that becomes re-usable after scout plane returns to ship...and like carriers, replenishes after X time has passed if the scout plane is lost), have it patrol for a couple minutes then RTB. Scout planes should fly high above AA and only deployed fighters should take them down.

The hybrid BBs should not have been introduced.

 

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50 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

I REALLY dislike what CIG is doing here.

IJN cruisers, especially aviation cruisers, were not carrying attack planes. They were scout plane carriers. Their doctrine was to have carriers have fighters and attack planes while the cruisers that escorted the fleet would be responsible for scouting.

The BB hybrids were to carry dive bombers which could not land back on the BB..they had to land on carriers or land bases. It was a last option effort to have increased air power after having lost so many of their carriers... and by then they understood battleships were not the deciding factor in naval battles...air power was. That's why the oldest BBs were converted to hybrid carriers.

 

WG should have introduced only the hybrid cruiser line and given them scout planes. Right-clicking on a map grid in map view should order the scout plane to that grid once you launch it (unlimited use consumable that becomes re-usable after scout plane returns to ship...and like carriers, replenishes after X time has passed if the scout plane is lost), have it patrol for a couple minutes then RTB. Scout planes should fly high above AA and only deployed fighters should take them down.

The hybrid BBs should not have been introduced.

 

Very much this.

The IJN was loathe to sacrifice CV / CVL hangar space for scout aircraft, that's what the catapult scout aircraft were for.  It was Cruiser Tone's scout aircraft that spotted the USN's Carriers at Midway, but it took forever for the report to make it's way to Admiral Nagumo, which had profound effects on the battle.  Tone-class spotting would play even additional roles once we get into the Guadalcanal phase of the Pacific War.  It was always spotting.  They weren't attack aircraft.

 

In contrast is the USN's practice on the matter:  Early on in the war, they had Scout squadrons on even their Fleet Carriers.  Enterprise at the start of the Pacific War had at different times scout squadrons like VS-6 going into 1943.  The catch however was that the scout squadrons flew the same aircraft as bomber squadrons, i.e. SBDs.  The USN eventually did away with scout squadrons altogether by the time 1943 closed.  They were renamed, redesignated.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On 11/3/2020 at 12:41 PM, Pugilistic said:

Also, a no-CV/no enemy Tone game with a 2-3 Tone division effectively produces a game where your side has a CV and the other does not.  

At the price of 2-3 cruises. 

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43 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

At the price of 2-3 cruises. 

The other thing with these Hybrids is they can only do one or the other.  Play as a BB / CA or play as a sort-of-carrier.  Not both.

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40 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The other thing with these Hybrids is they can only do one or the other.  Play as a BB / CA or play as a sort-of-carrier.  Not both.

That’s exactly what I mean. Your team could effectively get a carrier but has to lose 2-3 cruisers for it because they can’t do both at once. Sometimes that would be totally worth it, for instance when the Tones are top tier. But other times not so much like when they are bottom tier and radar cruisers might be more useful to support caps or whatnot.

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I've got myself into a game with 2 Tone and 1 Ise yesterday. Everyone was quite surprised to see one of these ships,  let alone 3 of them in a single team, but some of us knew it was a matter of time before they appeared somewhere. I had a Ranger in my division. He got sunk under 5 minutes, clock in, getting focused by the torpedo planes. The squadrons are balanced according to the tier of the ship (so Tone has tier 8 squadrons). Meaning that the CV couldn't deploy enough AA to protect itself, the torpedoes inflicting major damages on its Tier 6 hull, and  the players couldn't "group" around the CV without abandoning objectives to the enemy Team. Our CV raged in chat (craphappens), I stopped playing after that game;  I had to manage the incident (clan responsibilities) and I was bored to begin with, as it was one of those already super bad evening where most of the games are lost within couple of minutes and RNG seems to hate you to put a cherry on top. The kind of evening that gets you wondering why you keep playing this game.

I think these new ships, for the most part, will emphasize what's wrong about the two tiers span of MM, and multiple CVs. It is indeed possible, as it stands today, to create "meme" divisions.  Getting 2 (or sometime three) Tone in a division,  get into games with Tier 6 ships,  effectively creating a fleet of Tier 8 CVs capable of striking everything around the map. Wrecking havoc because, why not? I will paraphrase one player on the enemy team; WG wanted these ships in the game, so its only normal to exploit these flaws.  Trust me; at tier 6, the anemic alpha damage of Tone torpedoes is actually decent­.

I hope this will somehow reflect in WG spreadsheets. Thing is.... Having the same division against Tier VIII-X ships will most probably not be a problem so in the end, they might have "ok" avg damage and win rate while still creating miserable experiences for lower tier players from time to time.



 

Edited by Mr_Argamas
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I'm not surprised to hear that these things are irritating when you take multiples in a division.  The potential for shenanigans is absolutely there.  Thanks for sharing your experience.

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