Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Sventex

Were any Ships of the Line sold to the Orient?

19 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

2,452
[REVY]
Members
8,096 posts
6,118 battles

I know China did have at one time a modern fleet of Ironclad Battleships and Cruisers and Japan did order many ships from Britain.  But going back further in time, did any of the old tall ships, the Ships of the Line ever make it into Navies of the Orient?

BUPfvxi.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,352
[KWF]
Members
4,928 posts
6,598 battles

Though it's a bit of grasping at straws, by the wider definition of Orient, the Ottoman Empire that occupied a huge chunk of the Middle East for centuries had access to a large number of ships of the line, even a couple of first rates by the 19th century.

If not wrong Iran ( Kingdom of Persia at the time) could also have access to a few more modern ships, though due to geographical constraints it wasn't given much attention.

If talking strictly about East/South East Asia, I don't think any other nation at the time had tallships, considering many countries at the time in the region were under colonial control or didn't have access to the funds for large, more modern fleets.

Edited by warheart1992
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8,226
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
27,150 posts
14,738 battles
36 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Though it's a bit of grasping at straws, by the wider definition of Orient, the Ottoman Empire that occupied a huge chunk of the Middle East for centuries had access to a large number of ships of the line, even a couple of first rates by the 19th century.

If not wrong Iran ( Kingdom of Persia at the time) could also have access to a few more modern ships, though due to geographical constraints it wasn't given much attention.

If talking strictly about East/South East Asia, I don't think any other nation at the time had tallships, considering many countries at the time in the region were under colonial control or didn't have access to the funds for large, more modern fleets.

In the days of the sailing ship the oriental junk was the choice for those countries being able to sail far closer to the wind and needing a smaller crew at the same time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,352
[KWF]
Members
4,928 posts
6,598 battles
12 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

In the days of the sailing ship the oriental junk was the choice for those countries being able to sail far closer to the wind and needing a smaller crew at the same time.

Can't really blame them, it was adapted to the region's features and until Western Powers approached the region no real need for massive modernization was needed. Similarly Mediterranean navies for a long period of time used oar galleys that sat pretty low, which wasn't such a big danger in a relatively calm and enclosed sea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8,226
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
27,150 posts
14,738 battles
21 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Can't really blame them, it was adapted to the region's features and until Western Powers approached the region no real need for massive modernization was needed. Similarly Mediterranean navies for a long period of time used oar galleys that sat pretty low, which wasn't such a big danger in a relatively calm and enclosed sea.

I totally forgot about the Koreans who were very western in their adoption of cannons as the main method to fight with but mounted them on their very unique ships that were better suited for their waters than other ship types where other countries stayed withmore melee oriented navies. Yi Sun-Sin took 13 ships into battle against 300 Japanese ships 200 of which were warships and it was the Japanese who routed.

Look up The Admiral: Roaring Currents for a pretty historical telling of the Battle of Myeongnyang where he accomplished that feat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
210
[FFG33]
[FFG33]
Members
370 posts
14,436 battles

If you consider Turkey/ Ottoman Empire the “Orient”. Then yes, see SMS Goeben.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
828
[KIA-T]
Members
2,237 posts
9,838 battles

Ships of the Line were incredibly expensive, difficult to build and essentially a symbol of a countrys prestige at the time. Gosh that sounds very british of me.

It's fairly unlikely for a country to "sell" something like a SotL imo, not nearly as common as to lose them in battle.
Trivia: The largest fighting SotL, Santisma Trinidad was a spanish 144 gun 4-decker, boarded and stolen during Trafalgar but foundered in a storm when towed back to the UK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,352
[KWF]
Members
4,928 posts
6,598 battles
56 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

I totally forgot about the Koreans who were very western in their adoption of cannons as the main method to fight with but mounted them on their very unique ships that were better suited for their waters than other ship types where other countries stayed withmore melee oriented navies. Yi Sun-Sin took 13 ships into battle against 300 Japanese ships 200 of which were warships and it was the Japanese who routed.

Look up The Admiral: Roaring Currents for a pretty historical telling of the Battle of Myeongnyang where he accomplished that feat.

I wrote a while back an article on the subject as I was fascinated by the turtle ship.

That said, it's true Koreans were the ones using cannon more on their ship designs. Which is weird, considering the Japanese at some point possibly had more firearms than any European country. And while firearm making is different than cannon making, it's pretty curious. Instead they preferred for their naval battles to be more of the boarding action type. And it's not to say that Japanese shipbuilding completely stagnated, as Red Seal Ships were produced, armed merchants similar in size to a galleon.

Anyway, what's really amazing to me is how a country managed within around 40 years of getting modern western ship designs to beat a major western power in naval combat and continue that tradition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,452
[REVY]
Members
8,096 posts
6,118 battles
26 minutes ago, Akeno017 said:

Ships of the Line were incredibly expensive, difficult to build and essentially a symbol of a countrys prestige at the time. Gosh that sounds very british of me.

It's fairly unlikely for a country to "sell" something like a SotL imo, not nearly as common as to lose them in battle.
Trivia: The largest fighting SotL, Santisma Trinidad was a spanish 144 gun 4-decker, boarded and stolen during Trafalgar but foundered in a storm when towed back to the UK.

The thing is, in the Japanese Boshin War or Chinese Qing Dynasty, Western Powers actively sold valuable ironclad ships to those countries.  I'm just curious if even a 50 gun ship of the line ever made it into the hands of an Asian country.  I even have a Japanese woodblock print of one such steamship sold to Japan:

j6ripGK.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8,226
[GWG]
[GWG]
Supertester
27,150 posts
14,738 battles
21 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

I wrote a while back an article on the subject as I was fascinated by the turtle ship.

That said, it's true Koreans were the ones using cannon more on their ship designs. Which is weird, considering the Japanese at some point possibly had more firearms than any European country. And while firearm making is different than cannon making, it's pretty curious. Instead they preferred for their naval battles to be more of the boarding action type. And it's not to say that Japanese shipbuilding completely stagnated, as Red Seal Ships were produced, armed merchants similar in size to a galleon.

Anyway, what's really amazing to me is how a country managed within around 40 years of getting modern western ship designs to beat a major western power in naval combat and continue that tradition.

Yeah, the Japanese adopted the matchlock very early but didn't extend their use of gunpowder to cannons where the Koreans adopted cannons but stayed with bows which at that point in time had similar effective ranges.

1 minute ago, Sventex said:

The thing is, in the Japanese Boshin War or Chinese Qing Dynasty, Western Powers actively sold valuable ironclad ships to those countries.  I'm just curious if even a 50 gun ship of the line ever made it into the hands of an Asian country.  I even have a Japanese woodblock print of one such steamship sold to Japan:

j6ripGK.jpg

Selling to the orient really didn't take off until after the American Civil War when everyone started hustling to build or buy ironclads including oriental countries. I doubt anyone in the orient that would want a ship with such high crew needs and have never heard of any.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
879
[REVY]
Members
2,503 posts
13,431 battles
3 hours ago, Sventex said:

I know China did have at one time a modern fleet of Ironclad Battleships and Cruisers and Japan did order many ships from Britain.  But going back further in time, did any of the old tall ships, the Ships of the Line ever make it into Navies of the Orient?

BUPfvxi.jpg

I doubt it.

The time of the Ship of the Line pretty much ended with the Crimean War (1850s).
 

Japan was literally just opening up to the West at that time. The Navy got going about 1868 or so. I believe the Shogun did get some steam warships, included the former CSS Stonewall. The Imperial Navy inherited many of these ships as well as purchased more from abroad, but they were more steam vessels.

China was pretty much being overrun by the Western powers. The Western powers really weren't going to give the Chinese any advantage. Any ships they did get were pretty much obsolete or not properly maintained and crews were also not well trained. This was mostly because China was politically unstable at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,928
[PVE]
Members
6,929 posts
22,671 battles
7 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

:cap_popcorn:

???

I'm missing the popcorn in this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,462
[WPORT]
Members
6,624 posts
11,613 battles
Just now, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

???

I'm missing the popcorn in this thread.

There's interesting history being discussed.
Entertainment preferences vary, but I do feel this is a show worth having some popcorn with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
828
[KIA-T]
Members
2,237 posts
9,838 battles
1 minute ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

There's interesting history being discussed.
Entertainment preferences vary, but I do feel this is a show worth having some popcorn with.

Yeah.
These are good historical reading times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,928
[PVE]
Members
6,929 posts
22,671 battles
5 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

There's interesting history being discussed.
Entertainment preferences vary, but I do feel this is a show worth having some popcorn with.

Usually the popcorn meme is used for salty analogies...but I guess the low cholesterol threads can use some popcorn too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
959
[HC]
[HC]
Beta Testers
3,293 posts
12,976 battles
20 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

I doubt it.

The time of the Ship of the Line pretty much ended with the Crimean War (1850s).
 

Japan was literally just opening up to the West at that time. The Navy got going about 1868 or so. I believe the Shogun did get some steam warships, included the former CSS Stonewall. The Imperial Navy inherited many of these ships as well as purchased more from abroad, but they were more steam vessels.

China was pretty much being overrun by the Western powers. The Western powers really weren't going to give the Chinese any advantage. Any ships they did get were pretty much obsolete or not properly maintained and crews were also not well trained. This was mostly because China was politically unstable at the time.

Japan started getting western ships in the mid 1850's from the Netherlands. (starting with Kankō Maru, and Kanrin Maru) So, the Japanese just missed out on the ships of the line.

China was behind Japan in getting started by at least a decade, and made a mess of it to boot.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,452
[REVY]
Members
8,096 posts
6,118 battles
4 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

I doubt it.

The time of the Ship of the Line pretty much ended with the Crimean War (1850s).
 

Japan was literally just opening up to the West at that time. The Navy got going about 1868 or so. I believe the Shogun did get some steam warships, included the former CSS Stonewall. The Imperial Navy inherited many of these ships as well as purchased more from abroad, but they were more steam vessels.

China was pretty much being overrun by the Western powers. The Western powers really weren't going to give the Chinese any advantage. Any ships they did get were pretty much obsolete or not properly maintained and crews were also not well trained. This was mostly because China was politically unstable at the time.

If they were willing to give China and Japan modern Ironclad Battleships and Protected Cruisers, I would imagine they'd at least try and hawk a few obsolete Ships of the Line rather then scrapping them.  Even in 1949 the Royal Navy was still trying to get rid of those ships of the line, scuttling the 74 gun ship HMS Implacable with explosives.

 

Va45oC7.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×