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Capt_Ahab1776

Hakuryu a shell of it's former self

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Been trying to grind out the last two freebie unique legendary upgrades that I have. One for the Worcester and one for the Hakuryu. I've heard that the Worcester is really  not worth it but I figured it's free I'll finish it up

The Hakuryu I've not really researched it or read a lot about it. However it's free and I'm on the last stage I figured I'd go ahead and finish it out. It may just be me but I can not get the damage I used to get with this ship. It's like all games are very anemic to what it used to be able to produce. I realize T10 IJN planes are very fragile and shred easily under T10 AA compared to it's counter parts. Just I can only get half the damage and just a fraction of the BXP that I was able to get when I first got it. I remember the AP DB'rs got nerfed. Seems the rocket planes got nerfed. Maybe it's just me, but once I get this freebie upgrade finished I won't have much need for the Hak in random or CB. It can be replaced with the MVR easily.

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To be honest, tier for tier I find that the T8 CVs are better off. Constantly fighting other T10s in a T10 CV is difficult for anyone

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52 minutes ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Been trying to grind out the last two freebie unique legendary upgrades that I have. One for the Worcester and one for the Hakuryu. I've heard that the Worcester is really  not worth it but I figured it's free I'll finish it up

The Hakuryu I've not really researched it or read a lot about it. However it's free and I'm on the last stage I figured I'd go ahead and finish it out. It may just be me but I can not get the damage I used to get with this ship. It's like all games are very anemic to what it used to be able to produce. I realize T10 IJN planes are very fragile and shred easily under T10 AA compared to it's counter parts. Just I can only get half the damage and just a fraction of the BXP that I was able to get when I first got it. I remember the AP DB'rs got nerfed. Seems the rocket planes got nerfed. Maybe it's just me, but once I get this freebie upgrade finished I won't have much need for the Hak in random or CB. It can be replaced with the MVR easily.

Hakuryu was hit with three nerfs in fairly rapid succession.

1) After the previous Clan Battle season she was in, her AP damage was reduced.  Ultimately, Hakuryu's AP Bombs are more aimed toward Cruisers and vulnerable Battleships, while the German bombs are the heavy pen/heavy damage ones.

2) The rocket reticle change affected Tier 10 the most.  In general, the accuracy of rockets has been flared out significantly across the board.  While her rockets weren't her strongest aspect, it's still a bit hit to how she can influence maneuverable targets.

3) The AP Bomb reticle was altered.  While the bombs are functionally more accurate since the alteration that came with the pretty green/high visibility reticle, there's really a lot of fighting against muscle memory now.  For those that learned the Hak, the bombs are different, and require different play for citadeling Battleships (as in where you place your reticle and how you manipulate it).

-----

It's been a lot of change in a little timeframe.

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10 hours ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

To be honest, tier for tier I find that the T8 CVs are better off. Constantly fighting other T10s in a T10 CV is difficult for anyone

Oh me too. If I take a T10 CV that I feel the most confident in. Of what I own it is MVR all the way. My Midway, Audacious are strictly for Naval Battle stars now. My Hakuryu is for Naval Battles and just trying to finish out it’s freebie Legendary Upgrade.

Edited by Capt_Ahab1776

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10 hours ago, Ahskance said:

Hakuryu was hit with three nerfs in fairly rapid succession.

1) After the previous Clan Battle season she was in, her AP damage was reduced.  Ultimately, Hakuryu's AP Bombs are more aimed toward Cruisers and vulnerable Battleships, while the German bombs are the heavy pen/heavy damage ones.

2) The rocket reticle change affected Tier 10 the most.  In general, the accuracy of rockets has been flared out significantly across the board.  While her rockets weren't her strongest aspect, it's still a bit hit to how she can influence maneuverable targets.

3) The AP Bomb reticle was altered.  While the bombs are functionally more accurate since the alteration that came with the pretty green/high visibility reticle, there's really a lot of fighting against muscle memory now.  For those that learned the Hak, the bombs are different, and require different play for citadeling Battleships (as in where you place your reticle and how you manipulate it).

-----

It's been a lot of change in a little timeframe.

This

 

 

Out of curiosity, once a ship, any ship in game is either nerfed too hard or just simply power crept to the point it is very rarely played over a long period of time. Is buffs given only when people complain enough that the old saying “The squeaky wheel gets the grease” or data is collected in the office that shows a ship or ships is no longer being played or very rarely played?

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1 hour ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

This

 

Out of curiosity, once a ship, any ship in game is either nerfed too hard or just simply power crept to the point it is very rarely played over a long period of time. Is buffs given only when people complain enough that the old saying “The squeaky wheel gets the grease” or data is collected in the office that shows a ship or ships is no longer being played or very rarely played?

Wargaming tends to take the long view on balance issues.  Rather than seeing if it's an issue for a month, they'll give it a few months to kinda sort itself out.  If the many months show a real and lingering problem, you'll likely see some love trickle in.

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The Hakuryu needs a buff! Ineffective against most tier ten ships and you are deplaned very quickly! My proposal is to make the reserve deck for bombers and torpedo bombers larger and make it capable of 4 torpedo runs. Basically make it a Kaga but in tier ten so that people can attack without worrying about deplaning. Or bring back the long range torps to deal damage at long ranges avoiding the ships all together! The ship is disappointing and low damage yield in tier ten or clan wars! It needs more damage.

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They need to retighten the rockets up a little bit, not to the original reticule, but tighter than it is now.  Hakuryu torp squads should be able to launch 3 torps at once, same dmg per torp.  Bombs need a smidgen of a boost, because their citadel dmg is kind of pitiful atm.

IJN planes are already low health and get shredded, at least let Hakuryu get some damage out of it before being deplaned.

Edited by NefariousRaven

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On 1/31/2021 at 3:52 PM, NefariousRaven said:

They need to retighten the rockets up a little bit, not to the original reticule, but tighter than it is now.  Hakuryu torp squads should be able to launch 3 torps at once, same dmg per torp.  Bombs need a smidgen of a boost, because their citadel dmg is kind of pitiful atm.

IJN planes are already low health and get shredded, at least let Hakuryu get some damage out of it before being deplaned.

Or, as you are fond of telling the surface ships, you could learn to play better and not get deplaned.  

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On 2/3/2021 at 11:55 AM, brdhntr said:

Or, as you are fond of telling the surface ships, you could learn to play better and not get deplaned.  

I don't generally get deplaned unless I'm not playing very well that day.  That doesn't really change the point I am making here.  CV damage has been gutted over the months because of the inane complaints of players that don't understand their mechanics and they are now barely even a threat that registers when I play a surface ship.  DD torps scare me, CV torps tickle and make me use heal once a match maybe.  I don't think their damage needs to be back to the ol' RTS days when 200k+ dmg games were easy and regular and a CV could solo carry a game, but I feel like most CVs could use a ~20% dmg boost on torps/bombs.  Having single airplane torpedoes doing like 4.5k damage is absolutely pitiful when a few DD torps will damn near do 10x that.  Make CVs an actual threat again, it's too easy to ignore their damage (which I regularly do in surface ships, more important threats to be concerned by).

Edited by NefariousRaven

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5 hours ago, NefariousRaven said:

I don't generally get deplaned unless I'm not playing very well that day.  That doesn't really change the point I am making here.  CV damage has been gutted over the months because of the inane complaints of players that don't understand their mechanics and they are now barely even a threat that registers when I play a surface ship.  DD torps scare me, CV torps tickle and make me use heal once a match maybe.  I don't think their damage needs to be back to the ol' RTS days when 200k+ dmg games were easy and regular and a CV could solo carry a game, but I feel like most CVs could use a ~20% dmg boost on torps/bombs.  Having single airplane torpedoes doing like 4.5k damage is absolutely pitiful when a few DD torps will damn near do 10x that.  Make CVs an actual threat again, it's too easy to ignore their damage (which I regularly do in surface ships, more important threats to be concerned by).

Ave server damage in Hak was 90k for RTS, 200k damage was not easy in Hak.  One of the top CV players on the server averaged 133k damage in RTS, he is currently averaging 197k in the reworked Hak.  Current server damage for rework Hak is 80k.  Given that RTS had fewer players and the higher tier meta pretty much weeded out the lower skill CV players due to the CV vs CV interaction, that is an easily understandable drop.  In fact, I'd expect more given 10k is pretty much 1 good drop worth of damage. 

Again, learn to play better, it isn't the ship being gimped in some way.  You are sitting here crying how terrible CV is at doing damage and how you feel CV tickle you when in other ships.  If those other ships are so much better at dealing damage than CV, why is CV your highest damage dealer, despite you struggling to do even average served damage in them.  I'm sorry that you struggle in the easiest ship in the game to do damage, where each attack is pretty much set up to guarantee you do damage, but coming here and asking for the ability to make it easier is just plain laughable.

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On 11/1/2020 at 12:12 AM, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Been trying to grind out the last two freebie unique legendary upgrades that I have. One for the Worcester and one for the Hakuryu. I've heard that the Worcester is really  not worth it but I figured it's free I'll finish it up

The Hakuryu I've not really researched it or read a lot about it. However it's free and I'm on the last stage I figured I'd go ahead and finish it out. It may just be me but I can not get the damage I used to get with this ship. It's like all games are very anemic to what it used to be able to produce. I realize T10 IJN planes are very fragile and shred easily under T10 AA compared to it's counter parts. Just I can only get half the damage and just a fraction of the BXP that I was able to get when I first got it. I remember the AP DB'rs got nerfed. Seems the rocket planes got nerfed. Maybe it's just me, but once I get this freebie upgrade finished I won't have much need for the Hak in random or CB. It can be replaced with the MVR easily.

 

But according to anti CV haters, CV is OP needs to be nerf :Smile_teethhappy:  It's an unfortunate situation though as said before I am not going to go for tier 10 CVs I don't think they are worth it :Smile_hiding:

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9 hours ago, brdhntr said:

Ave server damage in Hak was 90k for RTS, 200k damage was not easy in Hak.  One of the top CV players on the server averaged 133k damage in RTS, he is currently averaging 197k in the reworked Hak.  Current server damage for rework Hak is 80k.  Given that RTS had fewer players and the higher tier meta pretty much weeded out the lower skill CV players due to the CV vs CV interaction, that is an easily understandable drop.  In fact, I'd expect more given 10k is pretty much 1 good drop worth of damage.

Back in the RTS days, CV was harder to play indeed.  I absolutely agree with that.  They had an outsized impact and a bad CV player would lose you the game while a good one would result in an absolute stomping.  Your average player would not necessarily get 90k dmg+ games back then very easily, in fact your average player would flop generally.  However back in the RTS days I would regularly see good players hit 200k+ damage without breaking a sweat, and most of the good CV players I see now do not average near that, they are averaging between 100-120k.  I don't know which players you are using in your examples, but my experience is very much the opposite of what you are describing as is the experience for all the CV players I know.  The RTS CV days were bad because the quality of the CV players on your team and your opponents team would almost certainly decide the outcome of the game.  That is no longer true with the rework and changes that have happened during it, that title now certainly belongs to DDs who will decide the outcome of most matches these days.

One thing we do know right now is average CV damage across the server is around 80k, as you have astutely pointed out, and that average BB damage across the server is like 5-10k higher than that.  Cruisers a bit lower and DDs much, much lower because your average player just lemmings them.  I don't think it is unreasonable to say that I think CV damage needs to be bumped up to get more in line with BBs and then I think they are in a good spot.

9 hours ago, brdhntr said:

Again, learn to play better, it isn't the ship being gimped in some way.  You are sitting here crying how terrible CV is at doing damage and how you feel CV tickle you when in other ships.  If those other ships are so much better at dealing damage than CV, why is CV your highest damage dealer, despite you struggling to do even average served damage in them.  I'm sorry that you struggle in the easiest ship in the game to do damage, where each attack is pretty much set up to guarantee you do damage, but coming here and asking for the ability to make it easier is just plain laughable.

Crying?  Where am I crying?  This thread is discussing the current state of Hakuryu.  I feel it is underpowered, as are most CVs now that aren't FDR, a CV that is buoying the average stats of the entire class (take it out of the statisitics and average CV damage will drop further).  Average server damage numbers dictate they've been weakened and frankly I don't care how a rando unicum is performing in them, I care about server averages because that's mostly what most players are experiencing.  In light of that, I am suggesting a very modest/marginal buff to all non-FDR CVs.  I am not asking they get buffed back to day 1 of the rework, because I think they were overtuned then.  CVs are very much not a threat in the current meta.  Put me against the best CV player you have, I still won't be that scared of them in a surface ship, I'll be more scared of DDs suddenly popping up and instakilling me or getting broadsided by a BB and exploding.  CVs are never really a risk of scary damage, and even their sustained damage can largely be mitigated by AA, positioning, dodging, and skilled play in general.  Hell, flamethrower Cruisers scare me more than a CV because I can't just put their fires out without risking a dozen more staying on me.  I'm just saying give CVs a slight bump to make them a bit more of a threat that can actually affect the outcome of the game for most players, not just the unicums that'll do so in literally any ship making them irrelevant here.  I also recognize that CVs have more of an outsized impact in Ranked play due to fewer ships, which is why I would not suggest an overzealous buff to them, just a nudge.

The only real significant change I would make is that Kaga's planes need to be T8.  If CVs are getting their damage nerfed across the board, as they have been then, Kaga's planes need to not be absolute wet tissues 3 tiers below ships she can be matched with.  She went from being a great premium to being pretty meh atm, with her selling point of endless planes being rather pointless when they are paper tigers.

Edited by NefariousRaven

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15 hours ago, NefariousRaven said:

Back in the RTS days, CV was harder to play indeed.  I absolutely agree with that.  They had an outsized impact and a bad CV player would lose you the game while a good one would result in an absolute stomping.  Your average player would not necessarily get 90k dmg+ games back then very easily, in fact your average player would flop generally.  However back in the RTS days I would regularly see good players hit 200k+ damage without breaking a sweat, and most of the good CV players I see now do not average near that, they are averaging between 100-120k.  I don't know which players you are using in your examples, but my experience is very much the opposite of what you are describing as is the experience for all the CV players I know.  The RTS CV days were bad because the quality of the CV players on your team and your opponents team would almost certainly decide the outcome of the game.  That is no longer true with the rework and changes that have happened during it, that title now certainly belongs to DDs who will decide the outcome of most matches these days.

One thing we do know right now is average CV damage across the server is around 80k, as you have astutely pointed out, and that average BB damage across the server is like 5-10k higher than that.  Cruisers a bit lower and DDs much, much lower because your average player just lemmings them.  I don't think it is unreasonable to say that I think CV damage needs to be bumped up to get more in line with BBs and then I think they are in a good spot.

Crying?  Where am I crying?  This thread is discussing the current state of Hakuryu.  I feel it is underpowered, as are most CVs now that aren't FDR, a CV that is buoying the average stats of the entire class (take it out of the statisitics and average CV damage will drop further).  Average server damage numbers dictate they've been weakened and frankly I don't care how a rando unicum is performing in them, I care about server averages because that's mostly what most players are experiencing.  In light of that, I am suggesting a very modest/marginal buff to all non-FDR CVs.  I am not asking they get buffed back to day 1 of the rework, because I think they were overtuned then.  CVs are very much not a threat in the current meta.  Put me against the best CV player you have, I still won't be that scared of them in a surface ship, I'll be more scared of DDs suddenly popping up and instakilling me or getting broadsided by a BB and exploding.  CVs are never really a risk of scary damage, and even their sustained damage can largely be mitigated by AA, positioning, dodging, and skilled play in general.  Hell, flamethrower Cruisers scare me more than a CV because I can't just put their fires out without risking a dozen more staying on me.  I'm just saying give CVs a slight bump to make them a bit more of a threat that can actually affect the outcome of the game for most players, not just the unicums that'll do so in literally any ship making them irrelevant here.  I also recognize that CVs have more of an outsized impact in Ranked play due to fewer ships, which is why I would not suggest an overzealous buff to them, just a nudge.

The only real significant change I would make is that Kaga's planes need to be T8.  If CVs are getting their damage nerfed across the board, as they have been then, Kaga's planes need to not be absolute wet tissues 3 tiers below ships she can be matched with.  She went from being a great premium to being pretty meh atm, with her selling point of endless planes being rather pointless when they are paper tigers.

RTS Hak top 10% players were averaging 135k damage, rework Hak top 10% averages 131k. You are making it out to be some huge difference and it isn't.  The quality of the CV player on your team still has a bigger influence on the win/loss than the other ship types, including DD.  The difference now is that you are more likely to get two really terrible CV players on the team so you don't see the difference.  In the RTS mode one would completely eliminate the other.  Now the good CV player doesn't even need to waste time on the bad CV player to take over the game.  

What is laughable is you dismiss DD damage because the average player just lemmings, but you have to bump CV damage because the average CV player isn't as bad or worse than the average DD player and deserves to do more damage.  

And we can't use a random unicum CV player to show that the CV really hasn't been gimped as claimed, but we can use a random unicum CV player cross dropping a DD as proof that RTS CV was worse than rework.  

Finally going back into the skilled play limits CV.  Maybe you should start a class to teach us all how this skilled play looks.  I will say that when I play CV there are ships I will ignore because it is evident from their position that they really aren't important targets from a win standpoint.  Often by the time I deal with the real threats, they are dead anyway.  I've even seen more than a few of these folks on these forums bragging how CV isn't a threat to them.  They are very much correct, but for the wrong reasons, usually.

 

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5 hours ago, brdhntr said:

RTS Hak top 10% players were averaging 135k damage, rework Hak top 10% averages 131k. You are making it out to be some huge difference and it isn't.

And looking at average players it was 90k vs 80k according to you, which I am certain you are underselling, but for the sake of argument let's use your numbers.  That's a 12.5% increase to get to that 90k again, which is roughly in line with my thinking of what the buffs should be, as I've said between 10-20% frequently.  This would bring them more in line with BB average server damage as well, or probably put them just slightly below BBs, which tbh would also be fine.  This is why I am suggesting modest buffs to Hakuryu and other non FDR carriers.  I am not suggesting we triple Hakuryu's damage.  It sounds more to me like you entered this thread looking for a fight and are blowing things out of proportion instead of engaging in the discussion constructively.  I'm not even demanding that CVs need to become the sole deciders of game outcome, which is what it seemed to be during the RTS days.  I'm just suggesting a marginal dmg boost and fixing of a couple premiums that have been dunked on with nerfs.

5 hours ago, brdhntr said:

The quality of the CV player on your team still has a bigger influence on the win/loss than the other ship types, including DD.  The difference now is that you are more likely to get two really terrible CV players on the team so you don't see the difference.  In the RTS mode one would completely eliminate the other.  Now the good CV player doesn't even need to waste time on the bad CV player to take over the game.  

What is laughable is you dismiss DD damage because the average player just lemmings, but you have to bump CV damage because the average CV player isn't as bad or worse than the average DD player and deserves to do more damage.

Every stats page I've seen on World of Warship paints a very clear picture that DD has a much larger impact on the game than CVs do, aside from specifically FDR and previously Manfred before its nerf which have/had significant impacts.  This includes Hakuryu and all other CVs.  Or rather, it might be more concise to say that most carriers have had quite bad sub-50% winrates for a while now, and many DDs often had much higher winrates than than 50%.  This would indicate surviving DDs are more likely to shift the game in your favour than any surviving CV.  These are numbers I looked up myself across the few websites that track actual in-game stats and has been true for most of the CV Rework.  DDs had the consistently lowest average damage numbers across the server of any ship type (we won't include the unicums doing 400k dmg games in DDs here), but apparently their unparalleled spotting ability wins games.  Anyone who has spent any length of time in the game in the last few months should be well aware of this, as the team that loses all its DDs will almost certainly lose 95% of the time, whereas losing your CV doesn't mean you lose the game at all though it certainly hurts.  What happens in a game with two live BBs vs a lone CV, or two surviving BBs vs a lone DD?  The DD will probably win because the BBs will never find it to kill it and just die to torps, whereas in the former the CV will probably die eventually as it isn't going to do enough damage before being found.  I've seen both in practice, and this is generally the outcome.  This game is all about concealment and spotting, and DDs dominate that particular area.  Cruisers and BBs had middling winrates, which entirely makes sense because they are more often just the damage turrets that support the spotting, they don't really control the game outside of Radar Cruisers which had higher win rates because they directly help to counter the most impactful ship in the game, DDs.

I welcome you providing links to statistics showing otherwise, but this is the consistent trend I have seen on most WoW stat websites.  This is a game of concealment and spotting, and in that realm DDs are king.  Information warfare.

Now you can make the argument that it must be because most CV players are garbage and hence cause the lower winrates, but that's an obviously ridiculous argument on its face that panders to your own inherent bias.  Why would CVs magically have a less skilled player base than the rest of the ships in the game?  Do CV mains not play any other ships?  Sounds to me like there's more surface ship players that refuse to play CVs and lack that knowledge than the reverse.  Rather than blaming the player, its better to ask why the game structurally makes CVs less impactful and have atrocious winrates.  Are they harder to play?  Do they do less DPM than all other ships (generally yeah), do they spot less well than DDs (generally yeah, unless you waste planes just sitting on top of a target to keep it in view, but AA exists), is their equipment limited, etc?

5 hours ago, brdhntr said:

Finally going back into the skilled play limits CV.  Maybe you should start a class to teach us all how this skilled play looks.  I will say that when I play CV there are ships I will ignore because it is evident from their position that they really aren't important targets from a win standpoint.  Often by the time I deal with the real threats, they are dead anyway.  I've even seen more than a few of these folks on these forums bragging how CV isn't a threat to them.  They are very much correct, but for the wrong reasons, usually.

So first of all, I have at no point said I'm an amazing player, nor will I ever claim to be an amazing player qualified to teach anything.  My winrates on individual ships I play a lot are usually within the server average or sometimes a bit better or worse depending on the ship.  I travel a lot for work and have a lot of other things going on in my life so I generally go huge swaths of time without being able to play anything and refine my abilities.  I'm a more or less casual player.  I've only gotten to play a lot the last couple of weeks because I'm in quarantine after travelling for work, but in a couple weeks I'll be gone for a month again ;P

That all being said, I've been farming up the German BB line the last few days (I've made it from the Kaiser to the Gneissnau, fully equipped, so far) after wanting something different from all my Japanese ships and my CVs.  I've wanted to try brawling in the era of Deadeye, and tbh I don't think it's as dead as people suggest it is.  I've quite frequently been in the top half of the team's score at the end of these games, often top 5, first a couple times now running a purely secondary build (with no captain survival skills as I've had to level German captains from scratch and my highest is only lvl 10), so apparently I'm doing something right.  Clearly I am some level of threat to achieve this, certainly one game where a CV focused the daylights out of me because it was on the other side of an island from me and about to die if I got around said island.  I spent many of those games attacked by CVs, not being ignored as you suggest, especially when I walked through the middle of a map with all the Deadeye snipers at the edge and killed one CV and half destroyed their second (2 CV game).  Even with both CVs panic bombing and torping the heck out of me, what finally got me was when every other ship in the game realized what was happening and focused all their cannons on me, right before I could bag that 2nd CV.  And I can tell you with certainty out of all of those games, not once did I feel the CVs were a real threat to me, ever.  And this is working up from tiers with garbage AA where CVs have free rein to dump on people.  They do chip damage at best these days, I can dodge/heal a lot of it (if I had survival cap talents even more so), and as far as I can remember, I never died to a CV more than once or twice, despite being plenty harassed by them.  If I died it was to BBs drilling me, or a spooky DD showing up I didn't realize was there and torping me to the high heavens.

This is not me claiming to have some absurd unicum level skill, nor bragging; this is me stating that I can do such things as a casual player, and if I can do it, anyone can do it.  If a DD torps are coming and a CVs torps from a different direction, whose are you ignoring?  The CV, every time, because the DD torps are what will kill you.  If CV bombers are coming and so is a full AP broadside from a BB, which one are you ignoring?  The CV bombers, every time.  CVs just aren't a real threat anymore, more of a nuisance.  CV planes are temporary, they will go away after their runs and let me hide again, DDs will stick to me like glue and keep me permaspotted without me being able to spot them myself to remedy this.  These are all just realities.  If you disagree with them, then apparently we live in different worlds.  But this is why I'm relying on actual game statistics to paint the picture for me and not just my experience.

Edited by NefariousRaven
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