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Fr05ty

Fr05ty's Dutch Cruiser Tech-Tree

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Hello there! Welcome to a post where I decide to stop doing single ADLAs on ships and instead try my best at guessing what a tech-tree line might look like. Here's my proposal for the Dutch Cruisers tech-tree line.

Dutch Koninklijke Marine

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Cruisers

Flavour

Dutch Cruisers have several defining features that should make them stand out:

  • Gunboats first and foremost

  • Improved AP bounce angles (50-65 chance of bounce, 65+ autobounce)

  • Above average gun range

  • Improved long-range accuracy, reduced short-range accuracy

  • Improved HE penetration (1/5 instead of 1/6 and 1/4 instead of 1/5 where applicable)

  • Advanced turtleback armour

  • Repair party from early tiers

The reasoning behind the improved AP and HE performance is rather simple. These ships don't have volume of shells, the HE shells themselves have low HE damage and poor fire chances, and they have low DPM figures, so a bit of help to make sure that when the shells land they actually do something was warranted in the writer's opinion. All ships in this line are in the bottom or near to it at each tier regarding AP DPM, HE DPM and fires set per minute.

Tier

CL

CA

Prem.

1

Van Kinsbergen Sloop

 

2

Holland

 

 

3

Vrede

 

 

4

Java

 

De Ruyter

5

Celebes

 

 

6

Eendracht

 

 

7

 

Kijkduin

 

8

 

Brederode

De Zeven Provincien (CL)

9

 

Willem van Oranje

 

10

 

Koningin Wilhelmina

 

 

Tech-Tree Cruisers

Van Kinsbergen class Sloop (T1)

Designed as a gunnery training ship, she was well armed, well armored and very fast for her type. She was capable of artillery support and convoy protection, serving honourably throughout the war.

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Survivability

Displacement: 1,760t standard; 2,388t full (6,950hp standard; 7,800p full)
Armour: 13mm belt, 20mm deck, 20mm conning tower

Weaponry

Main Battery: 4x1 120mm/50 Wilton-Fijenoord Mark 6
Reload: 6s (10)
HE Shell: 24kg @900m/s (1700 damage, 8% fire)
Traverse: 10 degrees per second (18s per 180 degrees)

AA Battery: 1x2 40mm/56 Bofors, 2x2 20mm Oerlikon, 2x1 20mm Oerlikon, 2x2 12.7mm

Mobility

Speed: 25.5kts - 17,000hp
Size: 103.2m long, 11.6m wide, 3.66m deep

Consumables
  • Standard
Analysis

It’s the quickest T1, has pretty good health and average guns. It’s good, not great, but it’s a T1 so you’ll probably play 3 games in this and forget about it. She has really good looks going for her.

 

Holland class Protected Cruiser (T2)

The last protected cruisers built for the Royal Dutch Navy. They carried a numerous main battery, and a good armour scheme, but they were held back by their low speed.

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Survivability

Displacement: 3,970t standard; 4,500?t full (16,950hp standard; 17,950p full)
Armour: 13mm gun shields, 57mm deck, 102mm conning tower

Weaponry

Main Battery: 10x1 120mm/40 Krupp No.3
Reload: 7.5s (8)
AP Shell: 23.75kg @680m/s (1900 damage)
HE Shell: 23.77kg @680m/s (1500 damage, 5% fire)
Traverse: 8 degrees per second (22.5s per 180 degrees)

Secondary Battery: 4x1 75mm/40 Krupp No.2
Reload: 7.5s (8)
HE Shell: 5.8kg @680m/s (1100 damage, 4% fire)

AA Battery: 8x1 12.7mm/90 machineguns, 3x1 7.9mm/80 machineguns

Mobility

Speed: 20kts - 10,000hp
Size: 94.7m long, 14.8m wide, 5.41m deep

Consumables
  • Standard
Notes
  • A Hull:
    • 8x1 120mm/40 Krupp No.3, 4x1 75mm/40 Krupp No.2
Analysis

Possibly one of the weakest ships in the line tier-for-tier, the Holland class is hampered most of all by its low speed of 20kts, only beating out the Diana and tying with the Albany for slowest in the tier. Gun-wise, it has a decent amount of guns with a decent rate of fire, though the low muzzle velocity and poor shell performance means that you’re going to be going for quantity of shells instead of quality. Defensively, she has a low amount of hitpoints for the tier, but still better than the Novik, the Nino Bixio, the Albany and the Dresden, which coupled with a decent armour scheme means that she will be able to stay in the fight for a long enough while to put out some shots. A below average ship for the tier, luckily you won’t spend much time on her.

 

Vrede class Light Cruiser (T3)

A preliminary design for the Java Class, showing the key features of light cruisers from the First World War. She stood out due to her balance of armour, speed and weaponry.

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Survivability

Displacement: 6,170t standard; 7,508t full (21,200hp standard; 23,750hp full)

Armour:

  • 65-50mm belt
  • 75mm gunhouses
  • 25mm deck
  • 40mm turtleback
  • 100mm conning tower
  • 50mm bulkheads
Weaponry

Main Battery: 10x1 150mm/50 Bofors Mk 6 guns
Reload: 12s
AP Shell: 46.7kg @900m/s (3050 damage)
HE Shell: 46kg @900m/s (2100 damage, 9% fire)
Traverse: 7 degrees per second (25.7s per 180 degrees)

AA Battery: 4x1 75mm/55 Bofors Mk 4 guns (8dmg = 28dps @3km 85% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 27kts - 60,000hp
Size: 154m long, 15.2m wide, 5.5m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search
Notes

Preliminary design for the Java class cruisers. Taken from the Dutch National Archives.

Analysis

The Vrede is built to take a beating and dish it out. It’s got the 2nd highest hitpoint pool at the tier behind the pocket-battleship that is the St. Louis class, while still having a decent armour scheme to protect the citadel. This chunk of hitpoints and armour is also coupled with a very decent speed of 27kts which ties it with the Kolberg and puts it ahead of the Bogatyr and the St. Louis. As with many of the ships in the Dutch cruiser tree, it focuses a lot more heavily on the defensive side than on the offensive side, as it has only 6 guns to the broadside and a punishing reload time, though the guns individually are pretty great. Overall, it is going to be a tanky ship capable of disengaging, but it shouldn’t engage in DPM races.

 

Java class Light Cruiser (T4)

An improved light cruiser design, it featured an unusual arrangement of superfiring guns and aircraft handling capabilities. Her speed and armour scheme were typical of light cruisers from the First World War.

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Survivability

Displacement: 6,670t standard; 8,208t full (22,150hp standard; 25,100hp full)

Armour:

  • 75-50mm belt
  • 100mm gunhouses
  • 25mm deck
  • 50mm turtleback
  • 125-100mm conning tower
  • 60mm bulkheads
Weaponry

Main Battery: 10x1 150mm/50 Bofors Mk 6 guns
Reload: 11s
AP Shell: 46.7kg @900m/s (3050 damage)
HE Shell: 46kg @900m/s (2100 damage, 9% fire)
Traverse: 7.5 degrees per second (24s per 180 degrees)

AA Battery: 6x1 40mm/56 Bofors (30dmg = 103dps @3.5km 90% acc), 6x1 20mm/70 Oerlikons (17dmg = 58dps @2km 85% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 30kts - 82,000hp
Size: 155.3m long, 16m wide, 5.5m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Standard Cruiser Repair Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search
  • 2 Seaplanes (Catapult Fighter / Spotter Aircraft)
Notes
  • A Hull:
    • 4x1 75mm/55 Bofors Mk 4 guns (8dmg = 28dps @3km 85% acc)
    • 65,000hp engine
Analysis

The Java is a tanky cruiser, carrying the 2nd highest amount of hitpoints, the repair party consumable, a very decent armour belt and even a turtleback scheme to ensure that citadel hits are hard to come by. It is decently fast, with 30kts being average and it has a pretty good AA battery for its tier. Defensively then, the Java is very good, suited to taking a beating, the big issues with the Java are on the offensive side. The Java has a broadside of only 7 slow-firing guns, their HE shells are rather weak with a low fire chance though the AP shells are pretty good. The result of this is that the Java has the lowest DPM of any tier 4 cruiser beyond Yubari, and doesn’t have torpedoes as other ships do. The Java then has to take advantage of its tankiness to outlast enemy cruisers, and it has the advantage in range over most of them along with the capability of using a spotter aircraft to strike from even farther away. The Java might be a tough cruiser to get a handle on, but if you can dodge and shoot, it should serve you well as even the damage you take is repaired.

 

Celebes class Light Cruiser (T5)

An earlier design for the Eendracht class, it featured several improvements over previous cruisers, including a main battery mounted upon superfiring turrets, torpedo launchers and a more modern anti-air suite.

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Survivability

Displacement: 7,800t standard; 9,850t full (24,300hp standard; 28,250hp full)

Armour:

  • 75-50mm belt
  • 100-50mm turrets (100mm front, 50mm other)
  • 25-20mm deck
  • 50mm bulkheads
Weaponry

Main Battery: 4x2 150mm/50 Bofors Mk 11 guns
Reload: 10s
AP Shell: 46.7kg @900m/s (3050 damage)
HE Shell: 46kg @900m/s (2100 damage, 9% fire)
Traverse: 7.5 degrees per second (24s per 180 degrees)

Torpedo Battery: 2x3 533mm torpedoes
Model: 533mm Mk X***
Warhead: 300kg (14400 damage, 240% flooding)
Speed: 57kts @8km

Secondary Battery: 2x2 105mm/50 M32 Bofors
Reload: 4s (15)
HE Shell: 16kg @800m/s (1400 damage, 5% fire)

AA Battery: 2x2 105mm/50 M32 Bofors (12dmg = 41dps @5km 75% acc), 6x2 40mm/56 Bofors (45dmg = 155dps @3.5km 80% acc), 5x2 12.7mm/62 machineguns (19dmg = 65dps @1.5km 80% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 32kts - 82,000hp
Size: 178.3m long, 16.5m wide, 5.5m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Standard Cruiser Repair Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search
  • 2 Seaplanes (Catapult Fighter / Spotter Aircraft)
Notes
  • 65,000hp engine (28kts)

Design:

Preliminary Eendracht design (https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/onderzoeken/archief/4.MST/inventaris?inventarisnr=3309&activeTab=gahetnascan&afbeelding=NL-HaNA_4.MST_3309) modified by replacing the ends 4” guns with 6” guns and removing a single torpedo tube from each launcher.

Analysis

The Celebes once again is on the durable side of the cruisers at its tier, trailing only the two heavy cruisers at its tier in terms of hitpoints, but with an even better armour scheme. Its AA complement is also pretty good, with a weak long-range aura, the continuous damage is among the best of the cruisers at the tier. Gunnery-wise, the Celebes benefits from an improved turret arrangement which gives it a competitive DPM overall, with an above average AP and below average HE giving it middle-of-the-pack performance overall. Its torpedoes have decent range and damage, though the speed is low and with only a single triple launcher on each side, they’re more of an afterthought used in sticky close-range situations which you should actively avoid. Your consumables will also make sure you stay in the fight and that you’re able to adjust to different combat situations. Overall, a pretty good and powerful cruiser for its tier if you can manage to land good AP shells, you’ll be disappointed if you expect a firebug.

 

Eendracht class Light Cruiser (T6)

A well balanced and innovative light cruiser design capable of colonial duty. Some of its main characteristics were its dual-purpose main battery and modern armour scheme.

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Survivability

Displacement: 8,350t standard; 10,800t full (25,350hp standard; 30,100hp full)

Armour:

  • 75-50mm belt
  • 20mm upper belt
  • 125-30mm turrets (125mm front, 50mm tops, 30mm sides, 65-75 twin/triple rears)
  • 25-20mm deck
  • 50-30mm bulkheads
Weaponry

Main Battery: 2x3 152mm/53 Bofors M1942, 2x2 152mm/53 Bofors M1942
Reload: 8s
AP Shell: 45.8kg @900m/s (3000 damage)
HE Shell: 45.8kg @900m/s (2100 damage, 9% fire)
Traverse: 9 degrees per second (20s per 180 degrees)

Torpedo Battery: 2x3 533mm torpedoes
Model: 533mm Mk X***
Warhead: 300kg (14,400 damage, 240% flooding)
Speed: 57kts @8km

AA Battery: 2x3 152mm/53 M42 Bofors (dmg = dps @6.8km 95% acc), 2x2 152mm/53 M42 Bofors (dmg = dps @6.8km 95% acc), 6x2 40mm/56 Bofors (45dmg = 155dps @3.5km 90% acc), 4x2 12.7mm/62 machineguns (15dmg = 51dps @1.5km 85% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 32kts - 85,000hp
Size: 185.7m long, 17.3m wide, 5.6m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Standard Cruiser Repair Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search
  • 2 Seaplanes (Catapult Fighter / Spotter Aircraft)
Notes
  • A Hull:
    • ROF: 6 (10s)
  • B Hull:
    • Needs AA modernisation (remove machineguns for 20mm Oerlikons)
Analysis

The Eendracht is a fine cruiser, though it no longer stands out due to its staying power as the previous cruisers have, it has a very good main armament which will provide it with the DPM (3rd best at its tier) to punish enemies along with firing arcs which should enable you to keep a good defensive angle while putting out shells downrange. The torpedoes are the same as those in the previous tier, which are alright, though they should be counted as an opportunistic resource instead of something to be relied upon. Its speed is below average at only 32kts, but it is decently protected, as it has a good belt and good deck protection that should help you avoid citadel hits. On the AA front, as with all ships so far, it’s pretty good, with a long-range aura that doesn’t have the best continuous damage, but will be spawning flak bursts from long range and a very good mid-range aura. Don’t forget about your consumables, the spotter aircraft can let you rain fire on enemies without retaliation and the repair party can help you stick in the fight. Another solid, yet unspectacular ship in a line of solid ships.

 

Kijkduin class Heavy Cruiser (T7)

During the 1930s, the Royal Dutch Navy wanted to build a cruiser to be the flagship of the East Indies Cruiser division. This design featured weight-saving measures to ensure it could engage contemporary enemy cruisers while having a lower displacement and a bigger gun caliber than treaty-cruisers.

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Similar design to this, but with A & X turrets replaced by triples. Credit to Tzoli for the image.

Survivability

Displacement: 9,450t standard; 11,875t full (27,500hp standard; 32,150hp full)

Armour:

  • 120-75mm belt
  • 120-50mm turrets (120mm front, 50mm other)
  • 75mm barbettes
  • 25mm upper
  • 25mm extremities belt
  • 30-25mm deck
  • 60mm bulkheads
  • 25mm torpedo bulkhead
Weaponry

Main Battery: 2x3 210mm/54.5 M1932, 1x2 210mm/54.5 M1932
Reload: 12s
AP Shell: 127.43kg @935m/s (5000 damage)
HE Shell: 127.43kg @940m/s (2850 damage, 14% fire)
Traverse: 7.2 degrees per second (25s per 180 degrees)
Drag Coef.: 0.295
Range: 17.2km

Torpedo Battery: 2x3 533mm torpedoes
Model: 533mm Mk X***
Warhead: 300kg (14400 damage, 240% flooding)
Speed: 57kts @8km

Secondary Battery: 2x2 105mm/50 M32 Bofors
Reload: 4s (15)
HE Shell: 16kg @800m/s (1400 damage, 5% fire)

AA Battery: 2x2 105mm/50 M32 Bofors (12dmg = 41dps @5km 90% acc), 6x2 40mm/56 Bofors (45dmg = 155dps @3.5km 90% acc), 4x1 20mm/70 Oerlikons (8dmg = 28dps @2km 85% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 32kts - 85,000hp
Size: 178.2m long, 19.4m wide, 6.2m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Standard Cruiser Repair Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search
  • 2 Seaplanes (Catapult Fighter / Spotter Aircraft)
Notes
  • Needs modernized AA suite
  • Fantasy proposal from the 1930s Dekkers plan
    • Mix between De Ruyter, York and Eendracht

Historical design notes: Design is based on the Dekkers plan design requirements for an 8500t cruiser with a main battery of 3x2 8” guns, torpedoes and 2x2 105mm guns for secondaries, much like a York-class cruiser. Assuming that the same thing that happened to the De Ruyter and Eendracht design process happened to this design (as in, was decided that it was too weak and thus improved); I looked at a displacement about 10,000t as a treaty cruiser but following cues from the Eendracht class, the Dutch Navy would have tried to maximise power while minimizing cost and displacement. Hence instead of 4x2 8” guns, they would’ve likely gone with 2x3 (A & X turrets) & 1x2 (B turret) for the same number of guns but saving up displacement and reducing the length of the citadel, using the displacement saved to improve protection.

Analysis

Offensively speaking, the Kijkduin has a rather good main battery, from its arrangement to their individual performance and range. The Kijkduin’s 210mm guns have a very good muzzle velocity which means that long-range gunnery shouldn’t be too much of a challenge, and the AP shells will hurt if they manage to penetrate an enemy, however don’t rely too much on the HE shells as they’re not particularly good. The Kijkduin’s AP DPM is good for its tier, especially amongst the heavy cruisers, but it has a low HE DPM and a low capacity to set enemies on fire. It has the same torpedoes as the previous two tiers, and what was decent before, now is even more of a last-ditch weapon. The Kijkduin will excel at long ranges, not at the ranges where its torpedoes can harm his enemies. Defensively speaking, the Kijkduin still has a decent armour profile with appropriate thickness protecting its citadel at long ranges, however it doesn’t have the slab of hitpoints that previous tiers enjoyed, making appropriate use of angling and range crucial to last the battle. The presence of the repair party will ensure you can recover some hitpoints, but this will only help you if you’re in drawn-out engagements. The AA of the Kijkduin is good as expected, though other cruisers at its tier have a much better long-range aura and even better AA capabilities overall. Speed-wise, the Kijkduin is average, with 32kts being on the lower end of cruisers at its tier, but still workable enough to ensure that you can reposition.

 

Brederode class Super Cruiser (T8)

A heavy cruiser killer design, it carried enough armour to protect against heavy cruiser guns while carrying larger guns than contemporary heavy cruisers. Its high speed was meant to enable it to hunt down enemy cruisers and escape from enemy heavy units.

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Similar design to this but replacing the triple turrets for twins.

Survivability

Displacement: 16,609t standard; 18,748t full (41,250hp standard; 45,350hp full)

Armour:

  • 140mm inclined 72 degrees belt (4.8m tall)
  • 27mm inclined 72 degrees upper belt (2.5m tall)
  • 25mm turtleback & citadel top
  • 140-50mm turrets (140mm front, 90mm incline, 70mm roof, 45mm sides)
  • 45-15mm secondaries (45mm roof, 20mm front, 15mm sides)
  • 105-30mm barbettes (105mm above deck, 85mm below deck, 30mm behind belt)
  • 65mm deck
  • 30mm torpedo bulkhead
  • 110-30mm bulkheads
  • 100mm conning tower
  • 27mm extremities belt (50mm aft)
Weaponry

Main Battery: 3x2 240mm/54.5 M1940
Reload: 12.5s
AP Shell: 192.16kg @915m/s (6050 damage)
HE Shell: 192.16kg @915m/s (3250 damage, 17% fire)
Drag Coef.: 0.29
Traverse: 7.2 degrees per second (25s per 180 degrees)
Range: 18.2km

Secondary Battery: 4x2 120mm/50 M42 Bofors
Reload: 3s (20)
HE Shell: 23.5kg @850m/s (1700 damage, 7% fire)

AA Battery: 4x2 120mm/50 M42 Bofors (40dmg = 140dps @6km 95% acc), 8x2 40mm/56 Bofors (60dmg = 207dps @3.5km 90% acc), 6x2 20mm Oerlikon (21dmg = 72dps @2km 85% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 34kts - 155,000hp
Size: 202.9m long, 22.7m wide, 6.75m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Standard Cruiser Repair Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA Fire
  • 2 Seaplanes (Catapult Fighter / Spotter Aircraft)
Notes
  • A Hull:
    • AA: 4x2 120mm/50 M24 Bofors (20dmg = 70dps @6km 90% acc), 8x2 40mm/56 Bofors (60dmg = 207dps @3.5km 90% acc)
  • Alternative shells: 187.36kg @920m/s (6000AP, 3250HE & 16%)
  • Alternative HE shell: 151.4kg @970m/s (3250HE & 18%)

Historical design notes:

16k ton design with double turrets, modified.

Analysis

The Brederode transitions into the super-cruiser part of the Dutch Cruiser tech-tree. It prioritizes armour over any other parameter and thus has a thick belt, deck and even torpedo protection. Combined with its best-in-tier hitpoint pool, the BrederodeIt should be considered as being the most durable cruiser at tier 8 and well capable of taking a beating, especially at short range thanks to its turtleback capable of bouncing shells up to 356mm in caliber, and its upper belt can bounce shells up to 385mm. Surprisingly enough, the Brederode’s AA is average, though it does have the best long-range aura at its tier. Offensively, the Brederode has the 3rd lowest AP DPM among cruisers at its tier, being better than the Cheshire and the Amalfi, but it does have the worst HE DPM and sets the lowest fires per minute of any cruiser. The guns themselves have fast shell velocities and little drag so they should have relatively short lead times and decent penetration at long range. It does however have the second longest range only behind the Kutuzov’s ridiculous 19.1km, and it can outrange it when using the Spotter Plane. Speed-wise, the Brederode is above average at 34kts and should have an easy time keeping at range or disengaging. If you master the long-range gunnery of the Brederode and angle properly, she’ll treat you to some great games.

 

Willem van Oranje class Super Cruiser (T9)

An improved heavy cruiser killer design, it was intended to protect the Dutch East Indies against aggression. It featured a very powerful main battery and protection which was superior to any contemporary cruisers.

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Survivability

Displacement: 17,748t standard; 20,745t full (43,450hp standard; 49,200hp full)

Armour:

  • 175mm inclined 72 degrees belt (4.8m tall)
  • 30mm upper inclined 72 degrees belt (2.5m tall)
  • 27mm turtleback & citadel top
  • 200-65mm turrets (200mm front, 130mm incline, 100mm roof, 65mm sides)
  • 60-20mm secondaries (60mm roof, 30mm front, 20mm sides)
  • 150-40mm barbettes (150mm above deck, 120mm below deck, 40mm behind belt)
  • 75mm deck
  • 30mm torpedo bulkhead
  • 160-35mm bulkheads
  • 120mm conning tower
  • 27mm extremities belt (50mm aft)
Weaponry

Main Battery: 3x3 240mm/54.5 M1940
Reload: 15s
AP Shell: 192.16kg @915m/s (6050 damage)
HE Shell: 192.16kg @915m/s (3250 damage, 17% fire)
Drag Coef.: 0.29
Traverse: 7.2 degrees per second (25s per 180 degrees)
Range: 18.7km

Secondary Battery: 4x2 120mm/50 M42 Bofors
Reload: 3s (20)
HE Shell: 23.5kg @850m/s (1700 damage, 7% fire)

AA Battery: 4x2 120mm/50 M42 Bofors (40dmg = 140dps @6km 95% acc), 9x2 40mm/56 Bofors (67dmg = 231dps @3.5km 90% acc), 10x2 20mm Oerlikon (35dmg = 120dps @2km 85% acc), 2x1 20mm Oerlikon (5dmg = 17dps @2km 85% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 34kts - 160,000hp
Size: 212.9m long, 25m wide, 6.75m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Standard Cruiser Repair Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA Fire
  • 2 Seaplanes (Catapult Fighter / Spotter Aircraft)
Notes
  • A Hull:
    • AA: 4x2 120mm/50 M24 Bofors (20dmg = 70dps @6km 90% acc), 8x2 40mm/56 Bofors (60dmg = 207dps @3.5km 90% acc)
  • Alternative shells: 187.36kg @920m/s (6000AP, 3250HE & 16%)
  • Alternative HE shell: 151.4kg @970m/s (3250HE & 18%)

Historical design notes:

16k ton design with triple turrets, modified.

Analysis

The Willem Van Oranje builds upon the Brederode with almost all its parameters being improved upon. It has even better armour protection and a larger hitpoint pool, it is still the best protected cruiser at its tier though it now has the 3rd highest hitpoint pool behind the Roon and the Riga. Its turtleback has been thickened and can now bounce up to 385mm shells, the upper belt can now bounce up to 429mm shells and in general will be a very tough cookie for those trying to reach her citadel. The AA is average, with a great long-range aura though, but it should still be usable and a great asset if you group up with other ships. The WvO sports the same guns as the preceding Brederode, but it mounts triple turrets instead of doubles while having a slightly slower reload. This results in the WvO having the 5th worst AP DPM, 6th worst HE DPM and 3rd worst fires per minute potential, so a marked improvement over the Brederode! Those long-range guns and the sub-par DPM means that you will have to make sure that you’re firing the right ammunition at the right target if you want to get good rewards, luckily, the good speed that it has means that it’s just that little bit easier to be in the right spot at the right time to take the right choice.

 

Koningin Wilhelmina class Super Cruiser (T10)

A flagship super cruiser design for the Dutch fleet. The ship featured excellent armour and firepower with good speed, emphasizing tactical flexibility and protection. The outbreak of war stopped the construction of these ships.

1aXP313sAw1KZ6s4prIVvzUgbLEO3DGrBNYWfSMYG6wZ8aSG0NRfOxGAX9RWMgcII9mW_Y2ESmeQ4aGISVE6kiv4zZupmrl5MY0GxvtMfz00AS1eoctZQ5HP3-RTZR-Gy-R-iNTk

Survivability

Displacement: 27,988t standard; 31,396t full (52,050/63,100hp standard; 56,850/69,650hp full)

Armour:

  • 225mm inclined 72 degrees belt (4.8m tall)
  • 40mm inclined 72 degrees upper belt (2.5m tall)
  • 30mm turtleback & citadel top
  • 300-100mm turrets (300mm front, 200mm incline, 150mm roof, 100mm sides)
  • 150-50mm secondaries (150mm roof, 80mm front, 50mm sides)
  • 250-40mm barbettes (250mm above deck, 200mm below deck, 40mm behind belt)
  • 100mm deck
  • 40mm torpedo bulkhead
  • 200-40mm bulkheads
  • 150mm conning tower
  • 30mm extremities belt (60mm aft)
Weaponry

Main Battery: 3x3 283mm/54.5 M1940
Reload: 17.5s
AP Shell: 315kg @900m/s (7600 damage)
HE Shell: 315kg @900m/s (3850 damage, 21% fire)
Drag Coef.: 0.284
Traverse: 7.2 degrees per second (25s per 180 degrees)
Range: 20.4km

Secondary Battery: 6x2 120mm/50 M42 Bofors
Reload: 3s (20)
HE Shell: 23.5kg @850m/s (1700 damage, 7% fire)

AA Battery: 6x2 120mm/50 M42 Bofors (60dmg = 210dps @6km 95% acc), 3x2 57mm/60 Bofors M1950 (72dmg = 248dps @4km 90% acc), 4x1 40/70mm Bofors M48 (49dmg = 170dps @3.5km 95% acc), 12x2 20mm Oerlikon (42dmg = 145dps @2km 85% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 34kts - 180,000hp
Size: 241.2m long, 29.4m wide, 7.8m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Standard Cruiser Repair Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search / Defensive AA Fire
  • 2 Seaplanes (Catapult Fighter / Spotter Aircraft)
Notes
  • Original AA: 6x2 120mm/50 M24 Bofors (30dmg = 105dps @6km 90% acc), 7x2 40mm/56 Bofors (53dmg = 183dps @3.5km 90% acc), 8x1 20mm Oerlikon (20dmg = 69dps @2km 85% acc)
  • Not sure if I should use the battlecruiser formula for HP or the normal cruiser formula. It is up for discussion as a balancing factor.
  • Modernised Design 1047.
Analysis

The crowning jewel of the Dutch Cruiser Tech Tree, the Koningin Wilhelmina is a true super cruiser, designed to chase and destroy heavy cruisers while being fast and tough enough to disengage against battleships. The Koningin Wilhelmina is probably amongst the toughest cruisers at tier 10, with Puerto Rico contesting with it as for the toughest overall. The Koningin Wilhelmina continues the trend set by the previous Dutch cruisers and now features really strong armour, its combination of a thick inclined belt along with a turtleback will mean that its citadel is safe from all but the largest guns, along with a thick main deck, torpedo protection, an extended belt and an upper belt make it a daunting proposition to strike down. Furthermore, its large displacement also gives it a large hitpoint pool so as to be able to remain in the fight even after taking heavy fire. The Koningin Wilhelmina has also received a weapons upgrade compared to the previous tiers, mounting even larger guns and providing an even larger punch. While these guns will not be able to the armoured belts of battleships at long ranges, they will be utterly devastating to cruisers and might even be of use against destroyers thanks to their fast turret traverse. The guns have a good muzzle velocity so they should have comfortable gunnery at mid ranges, with a slight tendency to have poorer arcs at long ranges. Their only weakness is found in its lackluster DPM, being superior only to the Goliath and the Venezia in terms of AP, but being bottom of the barrel in HE DPM and fire setting potential. As with previous cruisers of this line, keeping a distance and switching to the right shell for each occasion will be crucial to getting the most out of her. Her AA capabilities will make her a thorny subject to attack, and her speed is excellent, allowing her to switch flanks and engagements as needed. Overall, a fitting culmination to a tree of durable cruisers that reward good positioning, smart shell choices and teamwork.

 

Premium Cruisers

De Ruyter class Light Cruiser (T4 Premium)

Flagship of the Dutch East Indies squadron, this cruiser was built during times of shifting priorities for the Dutch people and thus featured a series of design compromises that limited its combat potential. It participated in the battle of Java Sea.

CZ0AYnwloW1VZkCU3PiKKHRsiUBXGPN4RfH7el5Q_WlqRoNuOGKI0mCsTorJT4TJRSpVHXM1svMkqUY3NWw4u6-uNJzGEmt1rYOsrDRP4CjMR9vUls4a5K1OsiWizS-3tOILPQqL

Survivability

Displacement: 6,442t standard; 7,548t full (21,700hp standard; 23,850hp full)

Armour:

  • 50-30mm belt (50mm between turrets, 30mm to ends)
  • 100-30mm turrets (100mm front, 30mm other)
  • 50mm barbattes
  • 30mm deck
  • 30mm bulkheads
Weaponry

Main Battery: 3x2 150mm/50 Bofors Mk 9, 1x1 150mm/50 Bofors Mk 10 guns
Reload: 10.5s
AP Shell: 46.7kg @900m/s (3050 damage)
HE Shell: 46kg @900m/s (2100 damage, 9% fire)
Traverse: 7.2 degrees per second (25s per 180 degrees)

AA Battery: 5x2 40mm/56 Bofors (38dmg = 131dps @3.5km 90% acc), 4x2 12.7mm/90 machineguns (15dmg = 51dps @1.5km 85% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 32kts - 66,000hp
Size: 170.8m long, 15.7m wide, 5.1m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Standard Cruiser Repair Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search
  • 2 Seaplanes (Catapult Fighter / Spotter Aircraft)
Analysis

The De Ruyter is a rather lightly armoured cruiser that features a very good set of consumables and pretty good anti-air firepower, though it doesn’t have a long-range aura. Its 32kts of speed is very decent, and its 7-gun broadside is extremely good. The big issue with the De Ruyter is that in order to use all of its guns it must show its broadside, but with a maximum plating of 50mm, that is a very dangerous proposition. Its sustained DPM is not very high unless it uses its full complement of guns, and that means opening yourself up to pain. The good news for this is that thanks to its 30mm extended belt, if you angle properly between volleys, you’re going to be able to bounce most of what’s coming at you. The De Ruyter is sure to reward those players that enjoy a very active playstyle where you dodge and weave through enemy shells while delivering your shells in return. It’s also a rather storied ship and was the fateful flagship of Admiral Karel Doorman at the battle of the Java Sea.

 

De Zeven Provincien class Light Cruiser (T8 Premium)

First capital ship class built by the Dutch Navy after the war. It was a light cruiser with strong anti-air capabilities that featured a fast-firing dual-purpose main battery but was otherwise lightly armoured.

9sFPo28SgItFao-eWGxgByfVK0Mu_jo2dTeEhXFo_ZesprGO7UbIe6MyU_nUBbOYTCywbZvgMCutPv8RS-oSzccRGYA9X6vViS2Zf1rQKbBgeIQEvSSQ1c2PHWjap1cW19GUJ7YU

Survivability

Displacement: 9,529t standard; 11,850t full (27,650hp standard; 32,100hp full)

Armour:

  • 75-50mm belt
  • 100-50mm turrets (100mm front, 50mm other)
  • 30-20mm deck
  • 50mm bulkheads
Weaponry

Main Battery: 4x2 152mm/53 Bofors M1942
Reload: 4s
AP Shell: 45.8kg @900m/s (3000 damage)
HE Shell: 45.8kg @900m/s (2100 damage, 9% fire)
Traverse: 12 degrees per second (15s per 180 degrees)

AA Battery: 4x2 152mm/53 M42 Bofors (dmg = dps @6.8km 95% acc), 4x2 57mm/60 Bofors M1950 (96dmg = 331dps @4km 90% acc), 8x1 40mm/70 M58 Bofors (98dmg = 338dps @3.5km 95% acc)

Mobility

Speed: 32kts - 85,000hp
Size: 187.3m long, 17.3m wide, 6.7m deep

Consumables
  • Standard Damage Control Party
  • Standard Cruiser Repair Party
  • Hydroacoustic Search
  • Defensive AA fire
  • Smoke Generator (1 charge)
Notes
  • A Hull:
    • AA: 4x2 152mm/53 M42 Bofors (dmg = dps @6.8km 95% acc), 4x2 57mm/60 Bofors M1950 (96dmg = 331dps @5km 90% acc)
Analysis

The De Zeven Provincien might best be described as a Dutch Atlanta. It is not the toughest ship, nor the fastest, but it does carry a big punch! It has a weak 75mm armour belt and 30mm armoured deck, both of which aren’t very impressive though they will offer some protection if you angle properly or against overmatching projectiles. The De Zeven Provincien will have to rely on smart angling, dodging, weaving and island cover if it wishes to remain in battle for quite some time as it has the 2nd lowest amount of hitpoints at the tier (only below the Ochakov). It does have a cruiser repair party as all Dutch Cruisers do, but those bonus hitpoints only work if you can stay alive between charges so if you manage to use them to the fullest, you will have a decent chunk of hitpoints. You have a smoke generator to help you last a bit longer, though it’s a single charge and none of that American long-lasting smoke. The big draw for the De Zeven Provincien are the guns, and what guns they are! The De Zeven Provincien has a set of four double 6” DP gun turrets which fire at a blistering 15 rounds per minute, giving it unparalleled dpm at the tier. There is a downside to those guns, the shells have fairly floaty arcs, the AP penetration isn’t great and the HE shells don’t have great firesetting chances nor damage. On the plus side, they get improved autobounce angles and HE penetration, so they can still do work if you can manage to land them on enemies. Those same guns are also the long-range AA bubble, firing out to quite a long way out and putting out very powerful puffs of flak with only a small continuous damage component. The AA only gets better after that, as it has a medium range aura that reaches to 4km and has a continuous damage component that is massive, being around 3x better than the T10 Anti-Air DD Smalland. Essentially, the De Zeven Provincien relies on staying away from enemies, hiding and just spraying a bunch of shells at them, while murderizing any airplanes that come near it. If you manage to stay alive for a while, you will get good results, so careful positioning and game sense is required.

 

 

Credit goes to Navypedia, ALVAMA, Tzoli, Shipbucket and the Dutch National Archives for the images used.

 

As a final note: There are at least 2 different heavy cruiser designs that the Dutch Navy investigated during the 1930s which I'm aware of, however the archivist that has them is unable to get that data to me yet. If and when he does, I'll reevaluate if they can be slotted into the tech-tree.

Edited by Fr05ty
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There is already  a tier 1 cruiser in the European line (Gryl Polish ship) to start the tech tree

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I think you could maybe drop the reload times on the tier 9 and 10 a little, I'm still a bit out of my depth on armour but the way it reads sounds like the scheme is similar to German BB's where they are actually worse at range for protection (due to the angle of the armour vs the fall angle of a shell at long range as opposed to short range before gravity really pulls on it and has a more level path) which would kinda make it weird if it's geared to attack more at range where it's potentially worse at taking hits. That and if the 120 mm secondarys were given 1/4 pen and between typical cruiser/DD protection and some madmen maybe choosing IFHE when it comes to dealing with BB's well.....:cap_haloween:

Either way - I see cruisers that seem to have as much or more armour than the Baltimore and Buffalo that I already brawl with BB's in but bigger guns so I have only one reaction regardless:

 

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3 hours ago, Umikami said:

Where the hell is @Lert, he'll go crazy for this!

He's already seen them. I posted them a while back, but the site where I had put them up in is no longer available so figured I'd post it here once again so people can enjoy it.

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On 10/28/2020 at 9:44 PM, Nutaz said:

There is already  a tier 1 cruiser in the European line (Gryl Polish ship) to start the tech tree

Which is why its a perfect start for a separate Dutch Tree.

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On 10/28/2020 at 7:44 PM, Nutaz said:

There is already  a tier 1 cruiser in the European line (Gryl Polish ship) to start the tech tree

Is this seriously all you have to say about the proposal? Really? There's 12 new ships in front of you and your only reply is "we've already got a T1". No comment on the rest of the line just because there's a T1 already...

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2 hours ago, Fr05ty said:

Is this seriously all you have to say about the proposal? Really? There's 12 new ships in front of you and your only reply is "we've already got a T1". No comment on the rest of the line just because there's a T1 already...

The only part of your proposal that I disagreed with was the only part I felt a need to address.  

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On 10/30/2020 at 1:23 PM, Nutaz said:

The only part of your proposal that I disagreed with was the only part I felt a need to address.  

Fair enough, but it's probably best to have it expressed with a "Line looks good; only thing is that we already have a Tier 1"

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Quick question @Fr05ty, do you think that the as designed Eendracht class would work up at tier VII? It'd likely need a small reload buff but is it plausible to push it that high?

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1 hour ago, Trophy_Wench said:

Quick question @Fr05ty, do you think that the as designed Eendracht class would work up at tier VII? It'd likely need a small reload buff but is it plausible to push it that high?

It's my belief it is. 

Matter of fact, the Eendracht pre-design you included should work fine at tier VI too.

Dutch_Light_Cruiser1937.thumb.jpg.3f683fc4da85c5c9af61fbae2d0e7654.jpg

On a side note, for an interesting Tier VII premium, you might consider KH-2. She would have been one of the Eendracht that the Germans had took over construction of and were looking at completing for service in their fleet.

You might be interested to know the Original Celebes design was originally to be an enlarged Java Class capable of mounting her guns in 4 twin turrets (from what I understood would have been similar to the 150's aboard the Tromp Class). The design should be capable of mounting torpedo launchers as well. For the line I'm working on I envision 2 triple launchers mounted on either side of her for Tier V.

2050520253_Celebestwinturrets2.thumb.png.8e10a50d0fd13e23bbddc35735b369f9.png

 

2129324508_Celebestwinturrets1.thumb.png.24f0130abe40870ae641dd559b676c65.png

 

Regarding Java at Tier 4, you may be interested to know both Java and Sumatra were proposed to have a refit in the 30's that would have replaced her main armament moving them to 4 twin turrets (like the Celebes design here) and in increased AA upgrade but was cancelled due to being too expensive (sadly a recurring theme for the Dutch Navy at the time).

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/netherlands/nl_cr_java.htm

As for Tier 8, you have a couple options if you want to continue with Dutch CL's. One naturally would be to add De Zeven Provincien itself. Another would be to add one of the initial design prestudies for converting / upgrading the old Eendracht into the eventual De Zeven Provincien class.

Eendracht_Class_Light_Cruiser_Pre_Study.thumb.jpg.26de60268e6106db842b51c7490f17b6.jpg

 

Edited by LordHood2552

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For a Tier 9 CL, you might be interested in this interesting and familiar looking predesign.

NL-HaNA_4.MST_3312-klein.thumb.jpg.0ca33710b355471577d28c31a9577225.jpg

 

And for a Tier 10, I had the idea (that WG could easily do) combining elements of 2 of their predesigns for the De Zeven Provincien Class. 

NL-HaNA_4.MST_3312-klein.thumb.jpg.0ca33710b355471577d28c31a9577225.jpg

NL-HaNA_4.MST_3313-klein.thumb.jpg.36197fb73b48a3828a18e8e069788049.jpg

If you can't see it yet, combining elements of these 2 will be a WG design with 6 dual turrets (3 fore, 3 aft).

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For an alternate set of Tier 8-10 Heavy Cruisers, there are actually 3 16000 ton Armoured Cruiser designs which are basically scaled down 1072 Design BC's the Dutch Navy look at briefly before going back to the full size BC's.

For info on those and KH-2 I mentioned earlier, it's worth having a look at the Tree done by EwoudK from the EU server he did a while back. I've included the PDF of his line below as well as the post he did in the EU forum.

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/93633-dutch-tech-tree/?tab=comments#comment-2222708

Also for some of the designs, here is where you can find them as well.

https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/onderzoeken/archief/4.MST/invnr/%401~1.2~1.2.21~3307-3432~3307-3337~3312

 

Dutch tech tree 2.01(EwoudK).pdf

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Interesting. Thanks for that. I'm curious though @LordHood2552 ( and @Fr05ty feel free to chime in here too) were there any 8" gun designs from the late 30s in addition to the super-cruisers? Or were they pretty set on the 238mm gun from the get go?

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3 hours ago, LordHood2552 said:

For an alternate set of Tier 8-10 Heavy Cruisers, there are actually 3 16000 ton Armoured Cruiser designs which are basically scaled down 1072 Design BC's the Dutch Navy look at briefly before going back to the full size BC's.

For info on those and KH-2 I mentioned earlier, it's worth having a look at the Tree done by EwoudK from the EU server he did a while back. I've included the PDF of his line below as well as the post he did in the EU forum.

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/93633-dutch-tech-tree/?tab=comments#comment-2222708

Also for some of the designs, here is where you can find them as well.

https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/onderzoeken/archief/4.MST/invnr/%401~1.2~1.2.21~3307-3432~3307-3337~3312

 

Dutch tech tree 2.01(EwoudK).pdf

Hi @LordHood2552,

I was well aware of all those designs and I discarded them all for one reason or another. Let me explain the rationale behind them (and just as a sidenote, EwoudK's techtree overtiers everything pretty drastically).

The Java class and the proposed twin turrets: I checked with several Dutch naval historians, all have been unanimous in their condemnation of such a design as inexistent and nonsensical. I asked Navypedia about their source on that and they've been unable to find the origin of such a claim. They all said that such a matter wasn't even discussed; that rebuilding the ships to carry double turrets would've been so prohibitively expensive due to the extensive nature of such a rebuild and that the limited budget assigned to naval programs meant that such a rebuild was never entertained.

The Eendracht at T7 is a possibility if you improve the ROF massively (I've already accommodated it at T6 with a 25% rate of fire boost to make it viable), but the issue isn't that the guns will be insufficient, the issue with Eendracht is the hull as well. You'd need a fantastic reload at T7 along with a significantly bulkier hull, improved AA, speed and secondaries. It's already slow at T6, and T7 cruisers tend to have a lot more hitpoints, plating and AA than the Eendracht class has.

De Zeven Provincien works at T8 as a Premium because it is an obvious break from the line's ideology, but there's nothing that can come after it at T9 without breaking a few design rules that WG seems to have imposed, among which is the one to not reduce calibers from tier to tier. The DZP also has the issue that it has waaaaaaaaaay too low a displacement and too thin of an armour to be a ship to be placed on the tech-tree. Remember that displacement determines HP.

KH2 has the issue that it's a German design of a captured Dutch ship, which might not be taken very well by the community, it also has low displacement. I'd rather not add a German ship to a Dutch tree.

Lastly, your proposals for T9 & T10 while good looking, won't fit the bill. Those designs carried British 5.25" guns in those twin turrets, and the hull itself was meant to be an Eendracht base, which sadly means that it has very little displacement and protection, suitable to at most a T6 ship, nevermind a T9-10 ship. For reference, you're going with a ship that has ~10000t displacement against ships that are no lighter than 18000t at T10. Even while combining them to have 6 twin turrets, you'd still have too light a ship to actually work at T10.

Regarding the 16000 ton armoured cruisers, those are used for my T8 & T9.

I had taken a look at all the designs you brought up (and a few more), scoured the Dutch National Archives for more possible designs and I decided upon the above line because of a lack of ships suitable for T7+ which followed a clear design idea. Those ships that I considered important but unsuitable for the line were instead implemented as premiums.

Hope you now understand the rationale behind my choices.

 

@Trophy_Wench: As far as I'm aware, there are 3 8" armed Dutch cruiser designs from the 1930s. Sadly, I do not have all the data for the 3 of them, only general characteristics for 2 of them and I'm awaiting a reply from a Dutch historian to get me the data on the 3 of them. Of the 2 that I have knowledge, 1 was the design espoused by Dekkers in 1930 which was very similar to a British County class. The other design was inspired by the German Deutschlands and carried 2 triple 8" turrets, around 30kts and were more heavily armoured than most treaty cruisers. That's all the info I have on them, but I will update it all once I get information back from the historian.

Edited by Fr05ty

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3 hours ago, Fr05ty said:

 

The Eendracht at T7 is a possibility if you improve the ROF massively (I've already accommodated it at T6 with a 25% rate of fire boost to make it viable), but the issue isn't that the guns will be insufficient, the issue with Eendracht is the hull as well. You'd need a fantastic reload at T7 along with a significantly bulkier hull, improved AA, speed and secondaries. It's already slow at T6, and T7 cruisers tend to have a lot more hitpoints, plating and AA than the Eendracht class has.

Ok, that's fair @Fr05ty. But if you would allow me to indulge for a moment: 

So your Endr. would have a theoretical AP DPM of 192k max. Not sure how that stacks up against other light cruisers but on the surface not bad? Ramping up to the D7P, with only 8 guns but with the autoloading turrets capable of 10-15 rpm (I'm going to split the difference and use 12 for this exercise) that gives that ship a theoretical AP DPM of 288K! So ok, perfectly fair to put that ship up at tier VIII with that kind of firepower. My question comes to a ship like the Tre Kronor, with 7 guns, also of the autoloading type but for sake of argument I'm giving it a nice round 10 rpm for a max AP DPM of 210k. On just 7 guns. But! given the rest of the ships parameters compared to the Endr., would you say that the T-K is tier VII material or tier VI? For reference here's how the T-K stacks up- https://www.navypedia.org/ships/sweden/sw_cr_tre_cronor.htm

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5 hours ago, Fr05ty said:

The Java class and the proposed twin turrets: I checked with several Dutch naval historians, all have been unanimous in their condemnation of such a design as inexistent and nonsensical. I asked Navypedia about their source on that and they've been unable to find the origin of such a claim. They all said that such a matter wasn't even discussed; that rebuilding the ships to carry double turrets would've been so prohibitively expensive due to the extensive nature of such a rebuild and that the limited budget assigned to naval programs meant that such a rebuild was never entertained.

De Zeven Provincien works at T8 as a Premium because it is an obvious break from the line's ideology, but there's nothing that can come after it at T9 without breaking a few design rules that WG seems to have imposed, among which is the one to not reduce calibers from tier to tier. The DZP also has the issue that it has waaaaaaaaaay too low a displacement and too thin of an armour to be a ship to be placed on the tech-tree. Remember that displacement determines HP.

KH2 has the issue that it's a German design of a captured Dutch ship, which might not be taken very well by the community, it also has low displacement. I'd rather not add a German ship to a Dutch tree.

Lastly, your proposals for T9 & T10 while good looking, won't fit the bill. Those designs carried British 5.25" guns in those twin turrets, and the hull itself was meant to be an Eendracht base, which sadly means that it has very little displacement and protection, suitable to at most a T6 ship, nevermind a T9-10 ship. For reference, you're going with a ship that has ~10000t displacement against ships that are no lighter than 18000t at T10. Even while combining them to have 6 twin turrets, you'd still have too light a ship to actually work at T10.

From some others I have talked about before, they seem to agree that the Java and Celebes design with the twin turrets would work. I think I even got Lert to agree with me for one on that (not an easy task mind you). Though keep in mind it was on a previous posting a bit far back in the forum here so it would take me a while to dig it up. As for it never would have been considered due to the cost, I don't believe that. Refits like this would have been proposed since due to the age of the cruisers and the rising world tension at the time. Being cancelled due to lack of funds though is sadly believable due to other projects being proposed and being cut due to costs and due to the neutrality movement at the time (which also cost them in the end).

From the little bit I understand about the predesigns I included for Tier 9 and a potential WG Tier 10 i never heard anything about them mounting 5.25" guns. From the designs it looks like they would just be additional same turrets as on De Zeven Provincien.

As for regarding KH-2, I included it as a unique Premium ship for the Dutch Line. EwoudK's line who I included the link too has it as the regular Tier 7 ship in his line. He makes the argument that since in World of Tanks where the Germans have a captured French Tank in their tree, the same idea can be applied in World of Warships (for instance, on the Commonwealth Submarine Line I'm working on, I included one of the captured U-boats as the Tier 8 that served for a few years in the RCN postwar).

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2 hours ago, Trophy_Wench said:

Ok, that's fair @Fr05ty. But if you would allow me to indulge for a moment: 

So your Endr. would have a theoretical AP DPM of 192k max. Not sure how that stacks up against other light cruisers but on the surface not bad? Ramping up to the D7P, with only 8 guns but with the autoloading turrets capable of 10-15 rpm (I'm going to split the difference and use 12 for this exercise) that gives that ship a theoretical AP DPM of 288K! So ok, perfectly fair to put that ship up at tier VIII with that kind of firepower. My question comes to a ship like the Tre Kronor, with 7 guns, also of the autoloading type but for sake of argument I'm giving it a nice round 10 rpm for a max AP DPM of 210k. On just 7 guns. But! given the rest of the ships parameters compared to the Endr., would you say that the T-K is tier VII material or tier VI? For reference here's how the T-K stacks up- https://www.navypedia.org/ships/sweden/sw_cr_tre_cronor.htm

Not that I have come across, but there is a good reason why for the armoured cruisers they were looking at like 9.2" or full Scharnhorst type ones. The Netherlands were never a signatory to either the Washington or London Naval Treaties. Hence it has been argues by others they can look at larger and heavier designs as well as heavier armament than the major powers could due to being restricted by the naval treaties.

That begin said, also of interesting note was an alternate armament for De Ruyter. After concern of the original armament of 3 twin 6" turrets, It was proposed to be fitted with either 4 twin 6" turrets or even 3 twin 8" ones (making her into a heavy cruiser). Sadly though due to costs (a recurring theme with the prewar dutch) and the neutrality / peace movement, the additional single 6" turret was fitted instead.

T-K could work at Tier 7 due to her guns being auto-loading. An argument could be made for Eendracht at Tier 7 is with a fictional wartime B Hull Upgrade of the newer auto-loading turrets added along with armour / suitability upgrades naturally. Or an argument could be made for having Dutch CL's equipped with Super Heals similar to the UK ones to compensate.

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5 hours ago, Trophy_Wench said:

Ok, that's fair @Fr05ty. But if you would allow me to indulge for a moment: 

So your Endr. would have a theoretical AP DPM of 192k max. Not sure how that stacks up against other light cruisers but on the surface not bad? Ramping up to the D7P, with only 8 guns but with the autoloading turrets capable of 10-15 rpm (I'm going to split the difference and use 12 for this exercise) that gives that ship a theoretical AP DPM of 288K! So ok, perfectly fair to put that ship up at tier VIII with that kind of firepower. My question comes to a ship like the Tre Kronor, with 7 guns, also of the autoloading type but for sake of argument I'm giving it a nice round 10 rpm for a max AP DPM of 210k. On just 7 guns. But! given the rest of the ships parameters compared to the Endr., would you say that the T-K is tier VII material or tier VI? For reference here's how the T-K stacks up- https://www.navypedia.org/ships/sweden/sw_cr_tre_cronor.htm

I had Tre Kronor set for T6. While the guns are good, its speed, displacement and protection aren't good enough to warrant it a spot at T7. If you want it at T7, you'd need to give the guns the full 15rpm and some other gimmick to help it survive, as it'd have 27100hp which as we all know is less than the already flimsy Atlanta. Also, the only reason why I thought that DZP could work at T8 with the survivability issues it has was due to giving it a smoke generator charge.

 

3 hours ago, LordHood2552 said:

From some others I have talked about before, they seem to agree that the Java and Celebes design with the twin turrets would work. I think I even got Lert to agree with me for one on that (not an easy task mind you). Though keep in mind it was on a previous posting a bit far back in the forum here so it would take me a while to dig it up. As for it never would have been considered due to the cost, I don't believe that. Refits like this would have been proposed since due to the age of the cruisers and the rising world tension at the time. Being cancelled due to lack of funds though is sadly believable due to other projects being proposed and being cut due to costs and due to the neutrality movement at the time (which also cost them in the end).

From the little bit I understand about the predesigns I included for Tier 9 and a potential WG Tier 10 i never heard anything about them mounting 5.25" guns. From the designs it looks like they would just be additional same turrets as on De Zeven Provincien.

As for regarding KH-2, I included it as a unique Premium ship for the Dutch Line. EwoudK's line who I included the link too has it as the regular Tier 7 ship in his line. He makes the argument that since in World of Tanks where the Germans have a captured French Tank in their tree, the same idea can be applied in World of Warships (for instance, on the Commonwealth Submarine Line I'm working on, I included one of the captured U-boats as the Tier 8 that served for a few years in the RCN postwar).

I'm not saying that the conversions weren't possible, I'm merely saying that the Dutch Navy never looked at it in any seriousness as the cost was prohibitive for a cruiser that was already over 15 years old by the time the idea supposedly came up. The historians I've consulted with, including a former archivist of the Dutch Navy Archives, all were unanimous in that the idea was never taken seriously and all were taken aback as they had no idea as to who might've proposed it. They claimed never to have seen such a proposal in official documentation. I liked the refit personally (I'm all for getting Celebes), but I was told that it was just somebody's imagination instead of something based on facts, so I discarded it and went with a preliminary design. Btw, I discussed all this with Lert extensively, just as I did the whole of the tree and pretty much every single Dutch ship that could've fit in the game; he's my go-to Dutch captain when I require feedback on Dutch matters.

About the designs for T9 & T10, you should be able to spot that those particular turret mounts are these: http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_525-50_mk1.php And lest I'm remembering it incorrectly, they're labelled as such in one of the pages from the National Archives.

It is somewhat different to include a French tank captured by the Germans in the German tree than a Dutch ship captured by the Germans in the Dutch tree though. Germans might not complain about having tanks that they captured from others, but it'd seem odd to have a nation's captured ship redone in their capturer's image then showing up in the original nation's tree.

3 hours ago, LordHood2552 said:

Not that I have come across, but there is a good reason why for the armoured cruisers they were looking at like 9.2" or full Scharnhorst type ones. The Netherlands were never a signatory to either the Washington or London Naval Treaties. Hence it has been argues by others they can look at larger and heavier designs as well as heavier armament than the major powers could due to being restricted by the naval treaties.

That begin said, also of interesting note was an alternate armament for De Ruyter. After concern of the original armament of 3 twin 6" turrets, It was proposed to be fitted with either 4 twin 6" turrets or even 3 twin 8" ones (making her into a heavy cruiser). Sadly though due to costs (a recurring theme with the prewar dutch) and the neutrality / peace movement, the additional single 6" turret was fitted instead.

T-K could work at Tier 7 due to her guns being auto-loading. An argument could be made for Eendracht at Tier 7 is with a fictional wartime B Hull Upgrade of the newer auto-loading turrets added along with armour / suitability upgrades naturally. Or an argument could be made for having Dutch CL's equipped with Super Heals similar to the UK ones to compensate.

I considered putting the Alternate De Ruyter as a premium and I think it'd still work with the 3x2 203mm guns, especially since this was before the ship's displacement was reduced. Funny enough, I didn't count 203mm De Ruyter in the three 203mm-armed designs I mentioned before.

Tre Kronor is a T6 design. You'd need to gimmick it up a fair bit for it to be T7. I am making a 3rd Pan-EU cruiser line and I'm looking exactly at this and other Swedish designs... There was a 3x3 152mm armed Tre Kronor preliminary that would be delightful at T7 ;)

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15 hours ago, Fr05ty said:

I had Tre Kronor set for T6. While the guns are good, its speed, displacement and protection aren't good enough to warrant it a spot at T7. If you want it at T7, you'd need to give the guns the full 15rpm and some other gimmick to help it survive, as it'd have 27100hp which as we all know is less than the already flimsy Atlanta. Also, the only reason why I thought that DZP could work at T8 with the survivability issues it has was due to giving it a smoke generator charge.

Tre Kronor is a T6 design. You'd need to gimmick it up a fair bit for it to be T7. I am making a 3rd Pan-EU cruiser line and I'm looking exactly at this and other Swedish designs... There was a 3x3 152mm armed Tre Kronor preliminary that would be delightful at T7 ;)

This was honestly my assessment as well. Though I would maintain that Gota Lejon would make for a great dual national premium with her upgraded AA suite (and maybe a radar) at tier VII? ;)

Anywhoo with that said, I have one more follow up question, were the as designed Endr. given her actual RoF of (I'm presuming here) 6rpm, do you forsee her possibly being weak enough to drop down to tier V? Also, if she were given the 15.0cm guns instead the Bofors 6" which to my knowledge were bored out by Sweden because the Dutch ordered them in 15.0cm?

 

Oh, also. I do agree that a premium version of the D7P would work fine at tier VIII with enough gimmicks thrown on it. Not to mention, a 5th equipment slot can solve a lot of problems! 

Edited by Trophy_Wench
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3 hours ago, Trophy_Wench said:

This was honestly my assessment as well. Though I would maintain that Gota Lejon would make for a great dual national premium with her upgraded AA suite (and maybe a radar) at tier VII? ;)

Anywhoo with that said, I have one more follow up question, were the as designed Endr. given her actual RoF of (I'm presuming here) 6rpm, do you forsee her possibly being weak enough to drop down to tier V? Also, if she were given the 15.0cm guns instead the Bofors 6" which to my knowledge were bored out by Sweden because the Dutch ordered them in 15.0cm?

 

Oh, also. I do agree that a premium version of the D7P would work fine at tier VIII with enough gimmicks thrown on it. Not to mention, a 5th equipment slot can solve a lot of problems! 

Well, it'd be a powerful T5 with the 6rpm. You'd have to nerf the ship in other respects as well tbh. I'd say with the 6rpm it's like a T5.5 or T5.7. The performance difference between the 15cm and the Bofors 6" is something I can't comment on with great accuracy. I do know that the Swedish 6" Bofors HE round had a large blasting charge, and that was not the case with Dutch 15cm guns.

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14 hours ago, Fr05ty said:

Well, it'd be a powerful T5 with the 6rpm. You'd have to nerf the ship in other respects as well tbh. I'd say with the 6rpm it's like a T5.5 or T5.7. The performance difference between the 15cm and the Bofors 6" is something I can't comment on with great accuracy. I do know that the Swedish 6" Bofors HE round had a large blasting charge, and that was not the case with Dutch 15cm guns.

Yeah I ran the numbers just to see how she might stack up. She'd be... like top class in term of AP raw DPM at 180k w/ a 3000 damage shell. It puts her almost at the top with Konigsberg but oddly she'd scale really poorly at higher tiers. I think if you gave her a weaker shell for the 149mm guns (and only gave Endr. the 149mm guns) you could justify the 10 barrels with a 10 or 11 second reload. Even so though, I think you're right, she'd probably be better off where you had her. 

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Not sure how I didn't notice this topic sooner. This is a very nice-looking line, with or without being attached to the European tree. Though in the latter case it'd be kinda too bad that the rather good-looking Van Kinsbergen gets left out.

I also quite like the idea of tech tree supercruisers; I remain disappointed that the USN and Soviet lines didn't get that instead of having them all as premiums.

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