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Midnitewolf

Tier 10 ships need some sort of Alternative Advancement Progression.

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So I have been playing WoWS on and off for quite some time but have always tended to play wide not deep.  The result was that when I returned back to playing recently I had a ton of tier 7,8 and 9 ships but no tier 10s.  Finally about a month ago I started unlocking Tier 10s and now have 4 lines unlocked.  I was excited at first but quickly realized there wasn't really any reason to play these Tier 10s I had been working on so long.  Oh I did play about 30 battles in Ranked and I usually manage to do about 5 Clan Battle matches a week or so but that is all there is.  Further, there are a while lot of reasons NOT to play a Tier 10.  I mean their credit earning potential is so low that often you lose money playing them and every match you play with a Tier 10 is one less match you can play in other lines that your still working on which means your actually progressing rather than doing something stagnant like playing a Tier 10 that gets you no where.  The results is I find it hard to motivate myself to actually play any of my Tier 10s.

That is when it occurred to me that WoWS needs some sort of Endgame Progression or Alternate advancement with Tier 10s.   At first I thought the RB might be the answer but since you have to reset lines, that defeats the entire purpose of getting to Tier 10 in the first place which is to play the coolest ships in the game.  No what is needed is some sort of Alternative Advancement that you do with your Tier 10s, maybe something like the RB but instead of having to reset lines, you use the XP you earn on your Tier 10s to buy stuff, be it ships, flags, modules, captains, whatever.  The only problem with this is that it is kind of redundant because we have the Armory which sells stuff for steel and coal and the RB that allows you to earn RP which you then use to buy similar stuff to the armory.  Adding another "currency" to buy even more of mostly the same stuff is a bit much.

So I am curious how the community feels and what some of your ideas might be and hopefully, HOPEFULLY WG will read this and do something about it.  Otherwise, the game kind of dead ends leaving us without any real reason to really stick around and play in my opinion.

Also just to note: I know that WG likes to sell EXP conversion but lets be honest here, only a few of us actually converts XP due to the obscene cost of doing so.  Most of us just accumulate EXP and no nothing with it and even if we do convert EXP,  there usually is more EXP than we would ever need to convert.   Also adding some sort of Tier 10 alternative advancement doesn't actually need to be EXP related, you could for example just earn points when playing a Tier 10 or maybe earn 50 Coal per battle and tie the progression into the Armory or something.  Finally anyone who has the extra money to convert EXP will probably own 50+ premiums and will have plenty of EXP on them to convert without even having to rely on converting from the tech tree.  What I am ultimately looking for here is some sort of REASON to play Tier 10s on a regular basis.

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3 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

Finally about a month ago I started unlocking Tier 10s and now have 4 lines unlocked.  I was excited at first but quickly realized there wasn't really any reason to play these Tier 10s I had been working on so long.

 

3 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

At first I thought the RB might be the answer but since you have to reset lines, that defeats the entire purpose of getting to Tier 10 in the first place which is to play the coolest ships in the game. 

So are they the coolest ships in the game, or aren't they? Your own experience suggests not, and indeed there are some lines I've stopped researching at lower tiers than that because I feel no need to go any higher in that line.

6 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

Otherwise, the game kind of dead ends leaving us without any real reason to really stick around and play in my opinion.

For me, the new ship lines every few months are enough reason to do that, even if the ships themselves are challenging (e.g. EU DD, Kansas).

9 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

What I am ultimately looking for here is some sort of REASON to play Tier 10s on a regular basis.

You have to discover that for yourself. Maybe they just aren't your favourite ships. If Ranked and Clan Battles are the only reason you play Tier 10, THAT'S FINE.

Yes, you worked hard to get them, but that doesn't create the obligation to play them hard all day every day, just to justify the effort you put in. It doesn't work that way, at least not for me. I've got ships that have been sitting in port that I paid huge amounts of coal or FXP for, but so what? When I take them out, they do what I got them to do - that's what matters, not how many gazillion XP or credits I can milk out of them or how many hundreds of random battles, to justify the purchase. I only have to justify it to myself.

 

Maybe you would have more fun if you backed down a few tiers, picked up a few new lines, and diversified your port further. Even try carriers if you haven't already. Tier 10 ships aren't jealous, clingy girlfriends who will yell at you for not paying attention and drop you if you don't interact with them 24/7; let them swing happily around their moorings in the harbour, work on your lower tiers, and keep your credit balance doing pleasant things for a while.

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I play my Tier X with my 19 point captains. This way they have a function (Captain XP) other than just being for fun. This may change when WG implements 21 pointers. The extra 750k per caption might make that effort pretty pointless. IF that’s the route and cost WG goes with the captain changes ... 

other than that, tier X are just for funnsies. Which is fine. The act of just playing the game without progressing towards a goal is still fun for me, though slightly less gratifying.

Edited by Pirate_Named_Bob

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You have to be very careful about providing too many incentives for Tier X.  Not just in more "alternative" power creep, but also game economic factors.

 

The addition of Tier X Perma-Camo alone changed things drastically:  It cut the costs down a lot of playing Tier X.  People used to have to play a bunch of mid tier games to pay for their Tier X servicing costs.  Not anymore.  There's a lot of things that can possibly happen.

 

Remember that Tier VIII & IX still have to deal with Tier X ships.  That's already a tall order to ask for.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Posted recently something related.  Basically tiers must expand one way or another. 

The grind never ends

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To the OP: It really seems like you play this game just to keep grinding the next thing.  I would suggest that WG provides many opportunities for that.

For many others though, including myself, I grind the ships or items I really want to play, and then enjoy playing them.  I play the majority of my random battles in T10, because they are the best ships, and the other players tend to have more skill leading to higher quality matches.

For many others, playing T10 simply means you will not be bottom tier.

I also like and enjoy playing clan battles.  Without clan battles I would not be playing this game.  So if WG makes a new T10 grind that captains would need to complete in order to be competitive, (for example if they make the UU's better, or the original idea of RB) I can confidently say they would lose me as a customer.

Lastly, I'm not sure I get your reasons.  Credits are simply a means to an end, if you have lots, who cares if you lose a little playing T10.  Whether you have 50 million creds, or 10 million creds, it makes no difference.  Also, when you say playing a T10 ship gets you nowhere, I disagree, it gets me a fun match in a fun ship.  If you have more fun gaining XP, go find a new ship line =)

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For me T10 is not the end all, it's enjoying the ships I enjoy. Some T10s simply have not held up over time like the Zao while others like the Des Moines have. I have ships from T6 to T10 in my port that I run through regularly, the rest I either sell off or hold as port queens for snowflakes. Some lines are simply not worth going to T10 for me so I don't. 

When I feel like progressing through something I often play a different game.

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2 hours ago, Pirate_Named_Bob said:

I play my Tier X with my 19 point captains. This way they have a function (Captain XP) other than just being for fun. This may change when WG implements 21 pointers. The extra 750k per caption might make that effort pretty pointless. IF that’s the route and cost WG goes with the captain changes ... 

other than that, tier X are just for funnsies. Which is fine. The act of just playing the game without progressing towards a goal is still fun for me, though slightly less gratifying.

Yeah but I have 19 point captains on a few of my Tier 8s so I can both gain ECXP and grind my ships at the same time so again it seems like a waste of time.

 

1 hour ago, Glamorboy said:

To the OP: It really seems like you play this game just to keep grinding the next thing.  I would suggest that WG provides many opportunities for that.

For many others though, including myself, I grind the ships or items I really want to play, and then enjoy playing them.  I play the majority of my random battles in T10, because they are the best ships, and the other players tend to have more skill leading to higher quality matches.

For many others, playing T10 simply means you will not be bottom tier.

I also like and enjoy playing clan battles.  Without clan battles I would not be playing this game.  So if WG makes a new T10 grind that captains would need to complete in order to be competitive, (for example if they make the UU's better, or the original idea of RB) I can confidently say they would lose me as a customer.

Lastly, I'm not sure I get your reasons.  Credits are simply a means to an end, if you have lots, who cares if you lose a little playing T10.  Whether you have 50 million creds, or 10 million creds, it makes no difference.  Also, when you say playing a T10 ship gets you nowhere, I disagree, it gets me a fun match in a fun ship.  If you have more fun gaining XP, go find a new ship line =)

I don't necessarily enjoy the grind just to grind.  I do however enjoy progression of some time.  In a traditional MMO, this might mean getting better, more power equipment from raids for example.  Heck back in the day the game with the best Alternate Advancement was Everquest which allowed you to continually incrementally improve your character just by grind out XP.   It was truly and "EVER QUEST" in that manner.  With WoWS, I just feel that there is no progression once I hit Tier 10.  I got this cool ship but it earns next to nothing, I can't use the XP earned without paying some absurd cost and aside I guess from running a 19 point captain and racking up ECXP, there is nothing to be gained by playing my Tier 10 ships.   Aside from a few modes, the game just stops at Tier 10.

As far as credits, I unlocked a ton of ships all at the same time and find myself needing about 50 million more credits than I have. I currently have the Tier 9 Riga and the Tier 10 Grozovoi unlocked but can't afford to buy them or outfit them so being able to earn credits at a quick rate is kind of important to me at the moment.  I think because I tend to play multiple lines and use FXP to skip over ships I am not enjoying, I just don't earn enough credits through normal play and am always terminally short of credits.   Then when I look at how little I can earn playing my best tier 10 ships, verses stepping down to a Tier 8/9 I can't find a reason to play the Tier 10.

As far as doing new ship line, as I mentioned, I tend to play wide rather than deep.  As such,  I am progressing most, if not all,  of the available lines to some degree or another.  I am just at a point where I have been playing long enough that, all my lines are starting to reach the higher Tier and all of a sudden I have unlocked multiple Tier 10s......and found very little to do with those Tier 10s.

 

54 minutes ago, MasterDiggs said:

For me T10 is not the end all, it's enjoying the ships I enjoy. Some T10s simply have not held up over time like the Zao while others like the Des Moines have. I have ships from T6 to T10 in my port that I run through regularly, the rest I either sell off or hold as port queens for snowflakes. Some lines are simply not worth going to T10 for me so I don't. 

When I feel like progressing through something I often play a different game.

Well yes, it is not the end.  I mean I am activity working on about 5 lines right now so that is what keeps me playing but I am just disappointed, there is no benefit to play my Tier 10s on a general basis once I have finally reached Tier 10.  What it occurring for me is I unlock the Tier 10 but then say to myself, "What is the point?"  The XP no matter how good I perform is useless to me and I am not going to make enough credits to move my balance noticeable upward at any sort of decent rate.   This is why I am here saying, "Hey WG, where is the end game?"  There just isn't much there.

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You have to be very careful about providing too many incentives for Tier X.  Not just in more "alternative" power creep, but also game economic factors.

 

The addition of Tier X Perma-Camo alone changed things drastically:  It cut the costs down a lot of playing Tier X.  People used to have to play a bunch of mid tier games to pay for their Tier X servicing costs.  Not anymore.  There's a lot of things that can possibly happen.

 

Remember that Tier VIII & IX still have to deal with Tier X ships.  That's already a tall order to ask for.

WG could/should put a tier 10 only restriction on any alternate game modes for tier 10s.  If such a mode was implemented successfully, it would draw many tier 10s out of random battles, helping out the tier 8s and 9s.

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HMMM maybe wargaming can come up with some sort of "prestige" type thing . what could go wrong make it happen ...

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Tier 10 games are objectively less fun.

It's the lethality scaling faster than hitpoints/survivability.

It was the Research Bureau  that reminded me of this. Tier 5-7 allow for aggressive shenanigans that don't usually  result in being insta-gibbed.

I'm happily going up the DE BBs and will reset them as soon as I get the GK research  points.

 

Edited by why_u_heff_to_be_mad
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Perma camo for T10 took care of some of the most common of parasitic draining of credits from same.

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I find Tier X Co-op a lot of fun, but it yields even less rewards than Randoms, so more credit drainage.  This is the true value of the Special ships, in my case my waifu Salem.  I can ride my Witch and never lose credits.  Other than competition, Fun is the only reason to play T10.  (Being guaranteed top tier helps.)

Try your T10 specials and other T10s you have permacamo for in Co-op and see if it doesn't help.  (Feel no guilt and don't tell anyone.)

 

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2 hours ago, Midnitewolf said:

Well yes, it is not the end.  I mean I am activity working on about 5 lines right now so that is what keeps me playing but I am just disappointed, there is no benefit to play my Tier 10s on a general basis once I have finally reached Tier 10.  What it occurring for me is I unlock the Tier 10 but then say to myself, "What is the point?"  The XP no matter how good I perform is useless to me and I am not going to make enough credits to move my balance noticeable upward at any sort of decent rate.   This is why I am here saying, "Hey WG, where is the end game?"  There just isn't much there.

 

The point is to play the T10 ships because you want to play the T10 ships in a T10 game environment against other T10 ships.  The grind exists, not for any kind of achievement, but to slow players' progression so they can learn the game at a pace that won't lead them into the most challenging and difficult levels of gameplay without experience under their belt.  If you enjoy that aspect, that's okay, but if that's your reason for playing the game, then my own opinion is that you've lost sight of the point of the entire game.

 

If you are not interested in playing the Zao, then don't progress to her and then buy her so you have it in your port.  Obtaining a ship you don't want to play simply to progress to it is overlooking the fact that the game is about -fighting- in the ships, not -grinding- in them.  And, if you do want to play the Zao, then having her and fighting her in battles against other T10 opponents is the reward.

 

The entire reason the RB was put in the game was for those who also lost sight of the game's purpose, or who never understood it to begin with.  Anyone should find fighting in a T6 ship just as enjoyable as fighting in a T10 if they are -playing- the game instead of -grinding- it.  If not, then I would point to the RB.  If that isn't good enough for you, then I would question what kind of game you thought you were playing, because it seems to not be World of Warships.

 

So, no.  We don't need yet another attempt to fix what isn't broken because there are people who simply don't enjoy playing the game anymore.  No amount of pandering to them will satisfy those players, as they will always find the measures taken to keep them unsatisfying....because the game simply isn't what they are here for.  

 

My two cents.

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I would argue that T10 is the most fun of any tier in the game because of healing potential of ships.  At mid and low tiers DDs and CAs don't have heals so mistakes are more permanent that mistakes at T10.    At T10 you can pull far more aggressive maneuvers because you have a heal to help recover health for more plays.  Sure mistakes are punished harder at T10 but in return you also get far more potential to recover from those mistakes.  I almost exclusively play my T10 ships now, because of that.   It also helps me improve my skills in those ships so I am a better player during CB and ranked which are often T10 as well. 

For me the grind is not the fun part, it is playing my T10 ships in divisions of clanmates.  So I just skip the grind my fxping my way to almost all my T10s.  If you like the grinding part of the game then just grind the RB.   

If you don't enjoy T10 just don't play it; play what makes you happy.

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2 hours ago, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

Tier 10 games are objectively less fun.

It's the lethality scaling faster than hitpoints/survivability.

It was the Research Bureau  that reminded me of this. Tier 5-7 allow for aggressive shenanigans that don't usually  result in being insta-gibbed.

I'm happily going up the DE BBs and will reset them as soon as I get the GK research  points.

 

This statement is complete nonsense.  I find tier 10 battles very fun and I'm sure that many other do as well, given that it's not uncommon for MM to create battles that are 100% tier 10 ships.  This statement is a subjective opinion, NOT an objective fact.

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I would like to see the tier 10 permanent camo's give even more credits, or commander experience instead of +100% experience. Doesn't make much sense to me that a tier 10 camo would provide more experience...

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5 hours ago, Glamorboy said:

Whether you have 50 million creds, or 10 million creds, it makes no difference.

Demonstrably untrue.

Try to buy and outfit your next T8 with 10M.

Try to buy just the bare T9 or T10 ship with 10M

Then try it with 50M; see if your outcomes are the same.

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27 minutes ago, Jakob_Knight said:

The point is to play the T10 ships because you want to play the T10 ships in a T10 game environment against other T10 ships. 

The same as any other ship in any other tier, nothing different here. The difference is in any other tier you also progress to some subsequent objective, at T10 there's no further progression. Once you got there, that's it, end of the road... 

33 minutes ago, Jakob_Knight said:

The grind exists, not for any kind of achievement, but to slow players' progression so they can learn the game at a pace that won't lead them into the most challenging and difficult levels of gameplay without experience under their belt. 

Lol... sorry I don't share your definition of game's grind

46 minutes ago, Jakob_Knight said:

The entire reason the RB was put in the game was for those who also lost sight of the game's purpose, or who never understood it to begin with. 

By saying this I think you really don't understand the OP... Why in heavens would I like to do the the same thing all over again after already doing it once? ... rhetorical question.

RB is the worst answer to OP's conundrum (I say OP's but it is also mine), at the end of the road ... start the same voyage again... really? 

53 minutes ago, Jakob_Knight said:

So, no.  We don't need yet another attempt to fix what isn't broken because there are people who simply don't enjoy playing the game anymore.  No amount of pandering to them will satisfy those players, as they will always find the measures taken to keep them unsatisfying....because the game simply isn't what they are here for.  

Being part of "those players" I find this last straw a bit annoying. I´m cool with other players (including you) having no problem in repeating the same action a thousand times, playing their favorite ships for hundreds of matches ... but why should I abide by that same standard? your very unsubtle "it's my way or the highway" is out of place since this is not "your" game and "We" do enjoy different things. 

Asking to expand the game content is not "asking to fix something that isn't broken", imo is a legitimate question that I'm sure WG considers seriously since it is related to player retention.  

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55 minutes ago, kitty_cat_swag said:

I would argue that T10 is the most fun of any tier in the game because of healing potential of ships.  At mid and low tiers DDs and CAs don't have heals so mistakes are more permanent that mistakes at T10.    At T10 you can pull far more aggressive maneuvers because you have a heal to help recover health for more plays.  Sure mistakes are punished harder at T10 but in return you also get far more potential to recover from those mistakes.  I almost exclusively play my T10 ships now, because of that. 

Thats an odd position. In most cases recovery from error at T10 is not possible because you are quickly killed.

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I bought premium time the last couple of years when they had the best discounts.  Now, with all of the little crates, events, etc rewards of little bits of premium time, I still have over 450 days of time left (going down very slowly).  I also dress all of my T10a in perma camo to celebrate the long grind there.  I usually play coop, and I still make some good credits using the camp / ptime combo.

My favorite ships are all mostly T8 - T10, and I enjoy them the most.  I am also mission driven, so I just play the ships I enjoy that will best get me the missions completed.  Works out pretty well for right now.

I intersperse that with my grind up the DD lines and the Kansas.

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2 hours ago, Crucis said:

This statement is complete nonsense.  I find tier 10 battles very fun and I'm sure that many other do as well, given that it's not uncommon for MM to create battles that are 100% tier 10 ships.  This statement is a subjective opinion, NOT an objective fact.

Fake news

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16 hours ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

Demonstrably untrue.

Try to buy and outfit your next T8 with 10M.

Try to buy just the bare T9 or T10 ship with 10M

Then try it with 50M; see if your outcomes are the same.

Let me clarify,

If you have the ship you want to play, as long as you can pay for your repairs, credits don't matter.  At that point, they are almost meaningless.

If you want to keep grinding a new ship line, then yes, credits matter, but that was the opposite of my point.  I get the ships I want to play, and play them.  I don't feel a need to be continually grinding fake money if I have nothing to spend it on.  A know a bunch of my clan mates who have hundreds of millions of credits.  At some point, it just doesn't matter if they have 400 million, or 500 million.  They have more than enough to do whatever they want.

I think for awhile I've hovered around 20-30 mil credits.  It doesn't make me change the ship I want to play.  

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23 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

It was the Unique Upgrade. 

That was the only reason I played my T10s, now the tech tree T10s I have are nothing more than snowflake rewards.

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