Hizen is #6

[dimzzy]

If I'm not mistaken it will be the sixth ship that uses Yamato hull: Yamato, Shikishima, Musashi, Izumo, Baje and now Hizen. They are not exactly the same but in reality the only significant difference are the guns. I was going to skip Hizen completely because I already have three out of six of them but 12 guns may be an interesting proposition. Which ships out of these six look the most powerful to you for their tiers? Do you think Hizen may be the best in the group?

[Lert]

Are Izumo / Bajie Yamato-ish hulls? I thought they were just a design proposal in the same program that led to Yamato.

[Tzarevitch]

28 minutes ago, dimzzy said:

If I'm not mistaken it will be the sixth ship that uses Yamato hull: Yamato, Shikishima, Musashi, Izumo, Baje and now Hizen. They are not exactly the same but in reality the only significant difference are the guns. I was going to skip Hizen completely because I already have three out of six of them but 12 guns may be an interesting proposition. Which ships out of these six look the most powerful to you for their tiers? Do you think Hizen may be the best in the group?

Musashi and Shikishima use the Yamato hull.

Izumo (with Bajie), and Hizen do not use the Yamato hull. They were developmental prototype plans for Yamato. They are are not the same thing.

[Lord_Slayer]

3 minutes ago, Lert said:

Are Izumo / Bajie Yamato-ish hulls? I thought they were just a design proposal in the same program that led to Yamato.

 

2 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Musashi and Shikishima use the Yamato hull.

Izumo (with Bajie), and Hizen do not use the hull. They were developmental prototype plans for Yamato. They are are not the same thing.

^^^

 

From my understanding Izumo (and Bajie) are Proto-Yamato designs.

Musashi is Yamato's sisters, so of course she would be the same hull as Yamato.

Hizen, I think, is simply another Proto-Yamato design.

[Tzarevitch]

2 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

 

^^^

 

From my understanding Izumo (and Bajie) are Proto-Yamato designs.

Musashi is Yamato's sisters, so of course she would be the same hull as Yamato.

Hizen, I think, is simply another Proto-Yamato design.

Correct. Shikishima is basically Yamato but with alternate bigger guns.

[Sventex]

2 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Correct. Shikishima is basically Yamato but with alternate bigger guns.

Yamato herself I believe was designed to be retrofitted with 20" guns, much like the Scharnhorsts.  

[Tzarevitch]

3 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Yamato herself I believe was designed to be retrofitted with 20" guns, much like the Scharnhorsts.  

They weren't planning on retrofitting the existing ships. There was a follow-on plan to build additional ships to what was basically a Yamato design but with the 20" guns.  It was the A-150 plan. Not much info on it survived the war but it is believed that they were basically the Yamato design but with 6 of the bigger guns. Here's a bit on them: 

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/08/30/design-a-150-battleship/#:~:text=Design A-150%2C also known as the Super Yamato,A-150 was halted and no keels were laid.

 

 

[dimzzy]

26 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Musashi and Shikishima use the Yamato hull.

Izumo (with Bajie), and Hizen do not use the Yamato hull. They were developmental prototype plans for Yamato. They are are not the same thing.

The differences are insignificant in WoWS.

[Akeno017]

1 hour ago, dimzzy said:

If I'm not mistaken it will be the sixth ship that uses Yamato hull: Yamato, Shikishima, Musashi,

 

38 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Musashi and Shikishima use the Yamato hull.

There's a long drawn out story based on developmental corner-cutting by WG, but essentially:

All three of these are actually Musashi hulls, the original model of Yamato (which was ancient and dates back to like, Alpha or beta) being tossed away when she was updated to Musashi's newer more recently made one. Shikishima is a clone of Yamato, who is actually Musashi with an edited superstructure.
I'm not sure why they used the Musashi hull for Yamato, I guess they forgot that the reason she had a uniquely modeled hull was to separate the two very-similiar ships from eachother.
 

33 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Yamato herself I believe was designed to be retrofitted with 20" guns, much like the Scharnhorsts.  

This is what Shikishima is, compared to a true A-150 design, which would probably be bordering more on a T11 vessel with stronger belt then any current T10.
Not that being a fake-A150 reduces the affect of 20" shells landing on the enemy or anything though.

[Sidelock]

2 hours ago, dimzzy said:

If I'm not mistaken it will be the sixth ship that uses Yamato hull: Yamato, Shikishima, Musashi, Izumo, Baje and now Hizen. They are not exactly the same but in reality the only significant difference are the guns

Yammy, Musashi and Shikishima use the same hull, so you're right.

Izumo and Bajie are prototypes based on the A-140-J2 design by Yuzuru Hiraga and its an entirely different hull design correctly represented in the game..

Hizen... The Wikia lists Hizen as an A-140-J3 design but apart from the guns she looks more similar to an A-140A2 hull design with the A-140-J3 41cms guns instead of the Four dual 46 cms guns of the A-140A2. The secondaries placement is identical to the A-140A2 and A-140B2.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

1 hour ago, dimzzy said:

Which ships out of these six look the most powerful to you for their tiers? Do you think Hizen may be the best in the group?

Tier for tier, Musashi is widely regarded as being one of the most OP ships (for bringing Yamato armament to Tier 9, vs. Tier 7), and there are quite a few people whose only lament over her removal is that they themselves missed out on getting one. 

As I see it, Hizen plucks Izumo's C turret out and moves it aft of the superstructure, then gives it an extra to keep it company. Hizen ought to have 1.33 times Izumo's alpha potential, trading off reload time against that to bring the ship's theoretical average DPM over the entire battle back down a bit. This is what I see in Hizen and why, given a sane set of directives, I will be doing my utmost to obtain her while I watch the early adopters to see whether she's worth the having. Think of her broadly as an IJN Montana at Tier 9.

[Sidelock]

3 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Think of her broadly as an IJN Montana at Tier 9. 

Ha! Ironically the J designs of wich Izumo belongs and now supposedly Hizen too as another J design have been sometimes referred to as the Japanese Montana so you're not far off with that statement.

[SteelRain_Rifleman]

2 hours ago, Lert said:

Are Izumo / Bajie Yamato-ish hulls? I thought they were just a design proposal in the same program that led to Yamato.

While the Izumo hull bears some similarity, it is just an early concept.

The Yamato hull itself was used for the two BBs in game and the Shimano in Alpha. I think about 5 ships of this type were proposed, only 4 laid down total. The first two were built in secret in Kure(Yamato) and Nagasaki (Musashi). The third Yokosuka (Shinano). Shinano is different in that some armor belt was thinner for more design flexibility. The fourth would be started in Yamato's old berth in Kure, but broken up. 30% done, and is the Shikishima as it was supposed to have the improvements of Shinano and the 100mm dual purpose guns. Hizen would be the fifth hull and is consistent with the Yamato in design, but is different because the fifth was to incorporate yet more changes consistent with Kii and Shinano in terms of armor and height. Her AA would also be 100mm if WG went with IJN building progression. 

But the design speculation is just that. Speculation.

Short answer, no.

[_SterlingArcher_]

2 hours ago, dimzzy said:

If I'm not mistaken it will be the sixth ship that uses Yamato hull: Yamato, Shikishima, Musashi, Izumo, Baje and now Hizen. They are not exactly the same but in reality the only significant difference are the guns. I was going to skip Hizen completely because I already have three out of six of them but 12 guns may be an interesting proposition. Which ships out of these six look the most powerful to you for their tiers? Do you think Hizen may be the best in the group?

You are mistaken.

[dimzzy]

1 minute ago, _SterlingArcher_ said:

You are mistaken.

You are mistaken.

[Sventex]

2 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

They weren't planning on retrofitting the existing ships. There was a follow-on plan to build additional ships to what was basically a Yamato design but with the 20" guns.  It was the A-150 plan. Not much info on it survived the war but it is believed that they were basically the Yamato design but with 6 of the bigger guns. Here's a bit on them: 

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/08/30/design-a-150-battleship/#:~:text=Design A-150%2C also known as the Super Yamato,A-150 was halted and no keels were laid.

That's not what I've read.  They planned to retrofit Yamato with 20" guns in the event the US deployed their own hypothetical 18" armed Battleship.  Yamato's armor wouldn't be able to handle it, so the 20" would be her only capability in engaging such ships.  The A-150 "Super-Yamatos" did not actually resemble the Yamato all that much and it would have been drastically uparmored.  Since Shikishima isn't a A-150, I would posit it's just the planned retrofitted Yamato since it's missing the 457 mm armor belt.  Basicly the difference between the Yamato with 20" guns and the A-150 is the immunity against 18" shells.

 

"Although called the "Super Yamato class" by some historians, Design A-150 was entirely new, having little in common with the earlier Yamato-class battleships.^[1]" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_A-150_battleship#cite_note-Garzke85-1

[_SterlingArcher_]

1 minute ago, dimzzy said:

You are mistaken.

How exactly am i mistaken?? You asked a question, have been told multiple times, you are, in fact, incorrect.

Therefore, no. No i am not.

[Akeno017]

1 minute ago, Sventex said:

That's not what I've read.  They planned to retrofit Yamato with 20" guns in the event the US deployed their own hypothetical 18" armed Battleship.  Yamato's armor wouldn't be able to handle it, so the 20" would be her only capability in engaging such ships.  The A-150 "Super-Yamatos" did not actually resemble the Yamato all that much and it would have been drastically uparmored.  Since Shikishima isn't a A-150, I would posit it's just the planned retrofitted Yamato since it's missing the 457 mm armor belt.  Basicly the difference between the Yamato with 20" guns and the A-150 is the immunity against 18" shells.

This is the right part.

So many people forget that the A-150 is different to the Yamato class, including WG itself. 

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

@dimzzy, before I forget:

 

[dimzzy]

3 minutes ago, _SterlingArcher_ said:

How exactly am i mistaken?? You asked a question, have been told multiple times, you are, in fact, incorrect.

Therefore, no. No i am not.

It seems to be too hard for most people to read more than one sentence before replying. Here is what I've also said: "They are not exactly the same but in reality the only significant difference are the guns." So yes, you are mistaken.

[Cruxdei]

Hizen is a frankenstein of proto yamato builds.

[AdmiralFox08]

2 hours ago, Lert said:

Are Izumo / Bajie Yamato-ish hulls? I thought they were just a design proposal in the same program that led to Yamato.

Izumo was a Yamato Prototype, and baije is an Izumo clone

[Lert]

1 minute ago, AdmiralFox08 said:

Izumo was a Yamato Prototype, and baije is an Izumo clone

Yeh but was the Izumo hull design significantly different from the Yamato one.

[Akeno017]

11 minutes ago, Lert said:

Yeh but was the Izumo hull design significantly different from the Yamato one.

I would say so, yes.

Yamato is a typical, all or nothing style protection, while Izumo has turtlebaka protection.
Izumo utilises the weird Nelson arrangement for weight saving etc, Yamato is a typical AB-X
Yamato has the sloped deck (something about putting the MBT closer to the waterline for waterkeeping afaik(?)) while Izumo has whatever you'd call the decks doing at her 2nd turret.

Seems like enough to say significant to me~!

[AdmiralFox08]

59 minutes ago, Lert said:

Yeh but was the Izumo hull design significantly different from the Yamato one.

izumo had all her guns forward like nelson and lenin, yamato had one turret in the back, I like yamato design better as you can actually hit things behind you when you run away from a dd