Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
MidwayBestWaifu

A serious nerf to german CVs that may come

26 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
23 posts

We all know german CVs are the best CVs but if they become very popular or perform too well they may get a serious nerf, the nerf WG would probrably make on them is the rocket damage, increasing the torpedo arming distance and nerfing the german AP bomb damage lesser than the japenese AP bomb damage, if they do this, Manfred von richthofen would be lesser effective and Hakuryu will take place of 3rd t10 CV for competitive battles next to midway and FDR and MVR may be worser than audacious. Parseval may be the 2nd worst t8 CV next to implacable and shokaku will be next to Enterprise and lexington for competitive battles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
332
[VORTX]
Members
403 posts
6,255 battles

I’ll shed a tear if this actually happens. Wait. Nope. No tears. CV get no tears.  Losing 30k HP per run in my krem or GK from those AP bombs. Lord forbid it finds me in a frenchie. Ugh. Just dodge. Yeahhhh about that ... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,415 posts
40,676 battles
20 minutes ago, why_u_heff_to_be_mad said:

Is AP even fun,

Weser is the worst tier 6 CV experience I've had 

It's the Rhein. It's disgusting how I can drop citadels after citadels. Yet, there is a streamer that does it better than I do.

WG must have seen that. Unacceptable!

I believe that at low tiers, you are going to get hit regardless because under tier 8, you don't even know what evasive action is or angling.

Above tier 8, it's that guy that is not moving, yet complains when a bomber pops up over the island and drops. The ship isn't moving right? Fair game if not moving.

Catching a ship not moving is akin to sailing broadside. A CV has to take full advantage. That is no different than a Yammy catching a conqueror wide.

You can debate that until the sun burns out, but in RTS, that was a serious problem. You had ships sailing alone. Easy target. Together, not so easy.

I think a nerf will only come based on performance of the intended target.

Since the debate waved the finger at the victim as well, expect WG to factor in the reckless driving of some ships in the new adjustments. If a player refuses to turn under a rocket attack, then that player either didn't know they were in danger (didn't check minimap), or intentionally tanked to make it the appearance of German CVs are OP.

Since I recently brought up the possibility of manipulated data a while back, it is going to be a topic of discussion in the process.

How much is the data true and how much is it the player forcing a nerf intentionally?

The only real way to verify the authenticity is to observe the game or watch scores of replays. Because numbers only tell one part of the story.

A slightly angled ship can bounce those rockets. An active turn will mitigate that easy. But a parked ship can't turn. Therefore what happens to them is punishment. No different than the Citadels of BBs on wide ships.

Maybe a nerf? We will see. But the Spectre of the CV is always going to illicit a response from Her Majesty's Secret Service.

Really, really.

 

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,096 posts
4,792 battles

Hmph, more speculation huh?

To be honest, I'll be rather disappointed if they nerf the German CVs. They're the one line that actually requires some skill to play, and they have a meaningful impact on the game by virtue of the design; being able to create crossfires at a moments notice is something that is somewhat underappreciated, and is largely unrecognized by a good amount of the playerbase. The one thing that might get nerfed is the AP bombs. However, considering the rarity ( at least from what I have observed and been told ), of scoring triple citadels on targets, I do not believe that a substantiated reason for a decrease in their effectiveness exists at the moment. 

Wargaming has commented on this issue, of course, but they apparently require more data and more time in order to determine how they will balance out the German CVs. 

Point is, we can speculate, but we might not always be right...

-Shrayes

  • Cool 1
  • Meh 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
154
[-K_P-]
Members
424 posts
3,550 battles

Only CV nerf (all CVs), I want to see is the one where they stop allowing torps to be launched from the beaches.  If a light cruiser cant sail there then it is too shallow to drop them.  IIRC even the shallow drop IJN Type 91 Torps with the Kyoban stabilizers, first used at Pearl Harbor, needed 10-20 meters of water minimum with a flat low level flight, after diving over a mountain....probably a bit deeper.

Edited by Crij

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
228
[IMP]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
311 posts
5,374 battles

MVR is ridiculously strong right now. AP rockets were a terrible mistake. (Rockets were a mistake overall, but well..)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,415 posts
40,676 battles
1 hour ago, Crij said:

Only CV nerf (all CVs), I want to see is the one where they stop allowing torps to be launched from the beaches.  If a light cruiser cant sail there then it is too shallow to drop them.  IIRC even the shallow drop IJN Type 91 Torps with the Kyoban stabilizers, first used at Pearl Harbor, needed 10-20 meters of water minimum with a flat low level flight, after diving over a mountain....probably a bit deeper.

I often abuse this mechanic coming over a mountain. I have a ship lined up and it is high dropped about 100 meters from the shore. If I happen to hit a beachgoer, it's a terrible accident. I don't expect anyone to be swimming 100 meters from shore.

It just looks like an island pooped torps, but they are dropped. From a good height and CV players do have to clear the water's edge. At that height, it looks like 1 mm gap from pilot camera, but at sea level, it's 100 meters.

The only complaint players should have is why I and a few others can do this so well?

It's not like we have skills right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,415 posts
40,676 battles
1 hour ago, Crij said:

Only CV nerf (all CVs), I want to see is the one where they stop allowing torps to be launched from the beaches.  If a light cruiser cant sail there then it is too shallow to drop them.  IIRC even the shallow drop IJN Type 91 Torps with the Kyoban stabilizers, first used at Pearl Harbor, needed 10-20 meters of water minimum with a flat low level flight, after diving over a mountain....probably a bit deeper.

You do realize that this is done to counter AA cruisers that park with their AA priority pointed away from the mountain? And that a high drop AP can not overpen and often triples a cruiser because the bomb floats down at vertical. It's probably the most fun a CV Player has if a cruiser is sitting still. Because high dropped AP wrecks everything. Turrets, engine, steering, etc. Forget the detonation flag? CV players will do that drop and find out. 

Since rework, CV players have had to get creative. Because RTS was about cross drops and straight linear drops. Terrain had no impact unless you went in a channel. Then it was hard to torp drop.

Rework allowed players to rediscover the threading of the needle in drops. Such precision is only possible with.. .ahem.. skill, and a full understanding of the terrain. 

It's not like CV players don't practice this. It is thoroughly practiced. And because of that, fully expect a CV Player to execute these flying stunts with disgusting regularity because they were actually not possible in RTS.

Imagine that?

I hate to break it to you, but this is hubris and also WG's mess.

Sometimes, if you ask for a rework, you get exactly this.

It is unclear what is adjusted, but it is also potentially going to open another can of worms. Because balance means adjustments to both sides and not one side. 

When you make an adjustment to one side, it is called bias.

🤔😏

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
716
[CLUMP]
Members
1,086 posts
1,345 battles

What if told you German CV where doom to be nurfed :Smile_teethhappy: They will get nurfed hard :etc_red_button: 

 

Edited by LastRemnant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[IJN]
Members
315 posts
14,757 battles

the one thing I want is Manfred's secondary guns to be upgraded from 105mm to 127mm. This makes sense when looking at very late German carrier design. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,971
[NH]
Members
1,792 posts
3 hours ago, Torenico said:

MVR is ridiculously strong right now. AP rockets were a terrible mistake. (Rockets were a mistake overall, but well..)

This one simple trick MVR drivers hate: WSAD... seriously dont broadside against the rockets and problem solved. 

  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
228
[IMP]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
311 posts
5,374 battles
3 minutes ago, BanCVComplainers said:

This one simple trick MVR drivers hate: WSAD... seriously dont broadside against the rockets and problem solved. 

Heavily depends on the ship, because you can dodge the first run but.. good luck with the second. CVs have a great advantage over other ships because they can easily change the angle of attack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,893
[WOLFG]
Members
30,659 posts
9,285 battles
6 hours ago, Torenico said:

MVR is ridiculously strong right now. AP rockets were a terrible mistake. (Rockets were a mistake overall, but well..)

I think the AP rockets weren't a horrible idea, but as with the other CVs, T10 takes it to an extreme.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,151
[BONKS]
Members
957 posts
3,663 battles
9 hours ago, USS_Saratoga_CV3 said:

We all know german CVs are the best CVs but if they become very popular or perform too well they may get a serious nerf, the nerf WG would probrably make on them is the rocket damage, increasing the torpedo arming distance and nerfing the german AP bomb damage lesser than the japenese AP bomb damage, if they do this, Manfred von richthofen would be lesser effective and Hakuryu will take place of 3rd t10 CV for competitive battles next to midway and FDR and MVR may be worser than audacious. Parseval may be the 2nd worst t8 CV next to implacable and shokaku will be next to Enterprise and lexington for competitive battles.

WG have already stated they are not touching MvR for at least 6 months. So try not to get your hopes up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
459
[FOXY]
Members
1,189 posts
5,424 battles
1 minute ago, Pay_Your_Torpedo_Tax said:

WG have already stated they are not touching MvR for at least 6 months. So try not to get your hopes up.

Im guessing thats to get numbers on its actual performance?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,389
[INTEL]
Members
13,459 posts
37,300 battles
7 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Catching a ship not moving is akin to sailing broadside. A CV has to take full advantage. That is no different than a Yammy catching a conqueror wide

Why do people keep saying that? If I am in a surface ship and a Yammy catches me wide, I can hurt him back.

I can do nothing to the CV. It can hit me whenever it likes. My only hope is that the CV driver isn't competent.

These are completely different scenarios, tactically and ethically.

 

  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,893
[WOLFG]
Members
30,659 posts
9,285 battles
22 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Why do people keep saying that? If I am in a surface ship and a Yammy catches me wide, I can hurt him back.

The fact that you can hurt the Yammy back has no bearing on the fact that the Yammy caught you broadside because you misplayed. And whether or not it's fair has no bearing on what happens after that.

You can't stop the Yammy from hurting you if he shoots you, but you don't have to make it easy by giving him a broadside.

You can't stop the CV from hurting you, but you don't have to make it easy for him by sitting still.

That's why people keep saying it. We know that the interaction isn't fair, but that isn't the point here. The point is, doing something is better than doing nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,453
[WPORT]
Members
6,600 posts
11,609 battles
1 hour ago, Taichunger said:


I can do nothing to the CV.
 

That is only true if you leave your BB/Cruiser/DD parked at the spawn-point and the CV doesn't sail to within your gun/torpedo range.

Unless you play a CV, too, as your choice of ship?

Release the "parking brake" and sail your ship.  :-)
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,415 posts
40,676 battles
10 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Why do people keep saying that? If I am in a surface ship and a Yammy catches me wide, I can hurt him back.

I can do nothing to the CV. It can hit me whenever it likes. My only hope is that the CV driver isn't competent.

These are completely different scenarios, tactically and ethically.

 

Say for instance, you are in a Yammy at start of game, you know there is a CV that could potentially hurt you, but you don't know where he is?

As a BB driver myself, I would stay close to AA and ask the CV on my team to spot the CV first.

Because a Yammy, while somewhat fast, can hit a CV because the enemy CV has yet to take cover.

Once it is established where the CV is heading, you have the team adjust accordingly.

As a CV Player perspective, I am thinking that Yammy is a threat, I must try to sink it, but if he is protected, I could be wasting a strike. Meanwhile, I have to consider the possibility that the Yammy is going to get me spotted for a snipe.

Two options are available for the CV, active loop maneuver where you loop a course like the infinity symbol. This allows flexibility in strikes, keeps me from parking, and I am able to evade most gun fire. But I night get caught broadside open water. Risky, but effective for strike CVs.

Option 2 is close combat theater action that a CV takes cover behind an island, but I am behind a flank for support. I will be safe from BBs so long as I have close support escorts. But again risky in that a DD could sneak behind or my supported flank collapses.

If you spot a CV open water, that will be your only chance to get him, have the CV support the spotting until that CV is sunk. Meanwhile team takes, contests, or holds positions until the operation is done. Having your CV support this way early forces red CV to defend spots for self preservation, and is essentially taken out of game unless you unsuccessfully take him out and he finds cover.

Once CV is taken out, your team CV can resume spot and opportunity attacks.

Now second scenario is critical to counter immediately, but you may not get that CV if he finds a good island.

So it is important to know at start of match, where he would likely take cover in advance and either spot ahead with CV planes or send 1 DD to that spot.

If CV is able to catch him on the move to that spot, then your team is able to overload to that flank.

If it's a DD you send, then your team CV has to provide air cover and you the Yammy has to take out any cruisers that might stop your DD from attacking the CV.  It helps immensely if a cruiser is involved, but a CV with you as a tandem can get the DD to the CV hiding spot quicker. Once the DD is there, the CV should be extremely vulnerable as he is parked.

The red CV should realize you are doing this and his counter is to defend himself, but that means he can't attack anyone else either.

A player can't fight more than two things at once. So the objective is to always keep the CV on the defensive at start of match. But that requires team coordination from you, a CV, and a DD.

There are variations of this tactic, but the principle is the same.

Tie up the CV. Find out where he goes.

In other ships, it's about position. Keeping a CV from effectively attacking because you deny him position is key.

CVs can only effectively turnaround strikes if they are close. Otherwise, they are largely effective. If he repeated sends his planes at you, then he is really close. Knowing you that, keep defense prioritized to making his planes pay.

He will dump bombers, but that means a light strike. Using just sector priority first and reserving the DFAA when he is sending a full strike is critical.

Also decide based on which plane type you are most vulnerable to. Dive bombers can hit left or right side, so only use priority if he doesn't dump, and when he is still not lined up to you and that side is facing him coming in. Just slowly steer to force him to correct. This makes your AA hit him more as he can't start an accurate run unless you are closer to vertical.

Torp bombers are similar situation. Sector only if a full strike, otherwise, keep regular. If you see them coming, turn in. If he is dropping behind you, then it's a fade drop. If right side, turn left, left side turn right.

You might take one, or he might miss. But the chances of a hit is reduced to 1 in 4, instead of 3 in 4.

It would be ideal as a BB player to be supported by a cruiser, but a DD or 2 will help in any case. Another BB is also helpful with combined AA.

But actively turning on a divebomber attack or turning in or out on torp drops helps you minimize the damage.

The key to this is keeping cruisers from spamming you with HE. It's a cruiser's task to wipe AA off your ship and do damage at the same time.

But a BB can check a cruiser by just carefully firing at range to push them away. So in cases like that, you want to creep in and only use full speed on flanks, but also to open distance.

If you force a cruiser off a cap with your gunfire, then you are doing great. Distance is your friend here. Because if a cruiser is more than 70% out of range of you, then you still have AA. CVs can help, but also DDs. You want someone to keep spotting cruisers at long range. It's to your advantage.

I hope this helps.

However, you probably know some of this anyway, you might not know all of it from the perspective of the CV player.

In either case, it should help. If a CV spots you, spot him back. Trust me. He don't like BBs shooting at him. Just ask your CV or DD.

I don't think a DD will say no. That's for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,110
[TARK]
Members
7,331 posts
2,754 battles
11 hours ago, Taichunger said:

If I am in a surface ship and a Yammy catches me wide, I can hurt him back.

All ships have the same range as Yammy?

No they don't.

11 hours ago, Taichunger said:

I can do nothing to the CV.

Spot the CV for your friendly battleship.

Each class has strengths and weaknesses.

WG has no intention of balancing so that every class can have an equal chance to damage every other class.

11 hours ago, Taichunger said:

It can hit me whenever it likes. My only hope is that the CV driver isn't competent.

This is true...so, so true.

WG needs to understand that hitting ships is WAY TOO EASY.

11 hours ago, Taichunger said:

These are completely different scenarios, tactically and ethically.

Tactically, yes.

Ethically...

...this is a free2play game and you want to discuss ethics?

:cap_haloween:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,389
[INTEL]
Members
13,459 posts
37,300 battles
22 hours ago, Skpstr said:
22 hours ago, Skpstr said:

 

 

22 hours ago, Skpstr said:

You can't stop the Yammy from hurting you if he shoots you, but you don't have to make it easy by giving him a broadside.

You can't stop the CV from hurting you, but you don't have to make it easy for him by sitting still.

That's why people keep saying it. We know that the interaction isn't fair, but that isn't the point here. The point is, doing something is better than doing nothing.

But... the sitting still ship isn't misplaying.

He is playing his ship correctly -- sitting behind an island when necessary, bow-tanking, dodging shellfire, etc. Only now you claim it's "misplaying" because the CV has an easy shot at him.

So what you're really saying is that when CVs are around there is only one possible playstyle -- moving.

Hey, thanks for demonstrating what we who want a rich, fun game have always maintained -- that CVs reduce tactical possibilities and make the game less fun and playable.

 



 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,893
[WOLFG]
Members
30,659 posts
9,285 battles
Just now, Taichunger said:

 

But... the sitting still ship isn't misplaying.

He is playing his ship correctly -- sitting behind an island when necessary, bow-tanking, dodging shellfire, etc. Only now you claim it's "misplaying" because the CV has an easy shot at him.

Well, yeah. You have to adjust to the environment. If there's no CVs in the game, you play differently, just as you would if there were no DDs or BBs.

Just now, Taichunger said:

So what you're really saying is that when CVs are around there is only one possible playstyle -- moving.

Yes. You know, like how we used to play?

Just now, Taichunger said:

Hey, thanks for demonstrating what we who want a rich, fun game....

Here's the thing. Maybe if all the players on both teams were decent, and knew what they were doing, like in KOTS, you'd get that.

But in Randoms, you get a big chunk of your team parked behind/beside the same island, while the reds overrun the map. 

Perhaps your idea of "rich and fun" differs from that of others. I know playing ships like tanks isn't that for me.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×