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general_D_H_Chun

Comprehensive list of problems with carriers

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1. flak stops spawning within 3.5 kilometers, unironically allowing carriers to recall ON TOP OF AA ships and save most of their planes
2. Why do multiple ships spawn flak in sync? 
3. bug with IJN CVs where not fully aimed torpedo reticle still drops fully aimed torpedoes
4. AP rockets, with short fuses and improved normalization angles, fully arm on fatter high tier DDs, for some reason
5. F key is still stupid
6. quick recall still enables carriers to dump on """high AA ships""" and save a majority of their planes
7. Fighters STILL SPOT THINGS
8. "massive AA," for if you're dumb enough to take a four point skill that unironically makes your AA worse
9. autopilot is still trash
10. "feature" where Franklin Delano Roosevelt is capable of making a full 90 degree turn IN ATTACK MODE, enabling it to approach you taking mitigated damage, from the completely wrong angle, and still turn and drop on your side anyways
11. rockets that unironically do more damage than Hakuryu DBs
12. original critique that cross-dropping a DD was somehow a "point and click" adventure, immediately followed by the implementation of rocket planes, a plane type where you literally point and click for damage
13. very excellent feature where German fighters are capable  of hovering in your AA range without being spotted because LUL 1943 German cloaking technology 
14. carriers can't detonate, an obviously historically motivated feature
15. FIVE SECOND FIRES lm ao
16. imagine being allowed to play the game for two minutes after you die
17. IMAGINE BEING ALLOWED TO PLAY THE GAME FOR TWO MINUTES AFTER YOU DIE 
18. Midway and Hakuryu are both unironically impossible to do meaningful damage to when kiting straight away
19. people who think this class is balanced
20. people who agree this class is stupid and spam it anyways lm ao
21. "It's definitely just a vocal minority that hates this class"
22. "we still don't want to let you opt out of carrier games lol"
23. carriers and epicenter are allowed to exist together, apparently. 
24. remember, the creatures are in clanwars now.
25. Kidd Kidd Aki divisions are an EULA violation guys come on

Edited by general_D_H_Chun
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26. smooth-brained carriers that don't know who to strike, causing them to hover in your spawn for five minutes, permaspotting you that entire time
27. even more smooth-brained carriers that know exactly who they want to strike, causing them to suicide 12 planes in order to take off 10k of your health in the first four minutes of the game.
28. the exp multiplier is trash. carriers don't even get any rewards for playing the game. they exist solely to ruin yours

Edited by general_D_H_Chun
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3 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

28. the exp multiplier is trash. carriers don't even get any rewards for playing the game. they exist solely to ruin yours

Dude...this is not true.

CVs get good XP and credit rewards.

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Agree with most of your point and I will straight up say that, "THE FDR IS TOXIC [edited] THAT NEEDS TO BE REMOVED/REBALANCED IMMEDIATELTY!!!"

However, in general I don't have a major problem with CVs being in the game most of the time.  It is very rare for a CV to ruin my game (UNLESS IT IS THE FDR WITH ITS UNKILLABLE PLANES) in any way, shape or form regardless of the class of ship I play, in fact HE spammers (if I am in a BB), Radar ships (if I am in a DD)  and the occasional DD Torp ambush (Any ship) tends to ruin my day 100x worse than anything CV can do (Except the FDR).  

Also, despite CVs being my absolute least played class of ship, I still think they can be fun.  However, most of the people who hate CVs don't play CVs and thus don't have a clue how to counter them or just what difficulties CV players have to deal with when trying to do damage.   Its a much harder class to play then most of these non-CV haters think they are and "farming" damage as they call it requires much more skill that then realize.  I also suspect that if most CV haters actually played CVs for a while, they would realize that most CV (Except FDR) aren't that hard to deal with.  I honestly think the fact I do play CVs is the entire reason why I don't have an issue with them.  You are just missing too much important knowledge about how a CV plays and what weaknesses they have, if you don't actually play them yourself and I an guarantee these CV haters have a worse time of it, because they lack this knowledge. 

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I've always found most hateful the guaranteed first strike policy... strike element not taking damage if there are planes floating in outer space... c'mon...

Edited by ArIskandir

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FDR torp bombers that include 2 planes but drop 8 torps. Who in the hell thought of that idea?
 

it’s like WG is telling the playerbase that we will give you training wheels because you can’t aim torps properly. So we are going to let you throw out 8 torps per run so you will get some hits and flooding.

Edited by Legio_X_

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Your list started of good but then as it went on it just turned into a hissy fit

Edited by Koogus
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21 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

1. flak stops spawning within 3.5 kilometers, unironically allowing carriers to recall ON TOP OF AA ships and save most of their planes

I understand the rationalisation for that, but recalling planes should certainly be subject to flak for the latter part of their climb to safety.

Quote

2. Why do multiple ships spawn flak in sync? 

I believe it's to do with the AA guns themselves. If you enter the flak bubble of say, an Iowa, a Baltimore, and a Gearing at the same time, all the AA guns are identical, and will reload at the same speed. (I assume for simplicity's sake, all AA/DP guns of a specific type have the same "reload" for their AA function)

I believe there should be some RNG in there, so flak bursts from multiple ships rarely "syncs", and even to the point of the bursts from one ship not synchronising. I believe maneuvering to avoid flak should mitigate damage taken, not be a "minigame" where damage can be avoided entirely. 

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3. bug with IJN CVs where not fully aimed torpedo reticle still drops fully aimed torpedoes

I've noticed this, but as I don't play CVs a lot, I assumed it was just RNG, like an FdG Dev Strike from 20km out.

Quote

4. AP rockets, with short fuses and improved normalization angles, fully arm on fatter high tier DDs, for some reason

Makes perfect sense. The "fatter" the ship, the more time the fuse has to arm within the ship. Whether or not it's "fair" is another matter, but the fact that it happens merely indicates the mechanics are working properly. If that didn't happen, and WG didn't mention they'd done anything, I would be concerned that the mechanics were faulty.

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5. F key is still stupid

Nothing wrong with it in and of itself, as I believe there's no reason to force a player to manually fly their planes back to the CV.

Where the issue arises, is in when it can be used.

Quote

6. quick recall still enables carriers to dump on """high AA ships""" and save a majority of their planes

Agreed. As I mentioned earlier, recalling planes should be subject to flak when reaching a certain altitude.

Quote

7. Fighters STILL SPOT THINGS

Yes they do, and when launched from your BB/CA, are invaluable in congested island areas, especially for spotting incoming CV squadrons that you normally couldn't see through an island.

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"massive AA," for if you're dumb enough to take a four point skill that unironically makes your AA worse.

It's a situational thing, which is apparent if you actually read and consider the described modifiers.

Having said that, I'd like to see more AA skills that actually have a noticeable effect. I'm surprised that they have nothing that expands the squadron's reticle, similar to what DFAA did back in the RTS days.

Quote

9. autopilot is still trash

It's certainly suboptimal, but the less fancy you try to get, the better it works.

Quote

10. "feature" where Franklin Delano Roosevelt is capable of making a full 90 degree turn IN ATTACK MODE, enabling it to approach you taking mitigated damage, from the completely wrong angle, and still turn and drop on your side anyways

Not sure what you mean here.

Quote

12. original critique that cross-dropping a DD was somehow a "point and click" adventure, immediately followed by the implementation of rocket planes, a plane type where you literally point and click for damage

Not quite the same. You can't click to start the run, then go grab a drink, like you could with RTS CVs. When cross-dropping with RTS Junyo, I was doing things with other squadrons before the TBs dropped.

With the new CVs, you have to focus, at the expense of doing anything else, until the attack is completed.

Quote

 very excellent feature where German fighters are capable  of hovering in your AA range without being spotted because LUL 1943 German cloaking technology 

 

That's interesting. I wasn't aware any CV planes had detection that low.

Quote

14. carriers can't detonate, an obviously historically motivated feature

I don't see that as a big deal, dets are rare, and signals easy to come by. Changing it would be largely a waste of time. IMO, they should remove it from DDs as well, for the same reason. (although DDs can mount the upgrade that greatly reduces the det chance)

Quote

15. FIVE SECOND FIRES lm ao

Not as bad as that sounds. That 5 seconds will damage the CV a bit more than a 15 second BB fire. CVs (other than T4) also catch fire more easily, as all CVs have the same fire resistance as a stock T6 hull.

Quote

16. imagine being allowed to play the game for two minutes after you die
17. IMAGINE BEING ALLOWED TO PLAY THE GAME FOR TWO MINUTES AFTER YOU DIE 

 

With all the issues CVs have, this seems an odd hill to die on. (as evidenced by the double emphasised statement)

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18. Midway and Hakuryu are both unironically impossible to do meaningful damage to when kiting straight away

This is true, unless you hit the stern, which also works well against other ships.

Quote

19. people who think this class is balanced

I believe it's unbalanced, but it doesn't bother me, as I personally find the effects not that bad. YMMV of course.

Quote

20. people who agree this class is stupid and spam it anyways lm ao

Would that also include people who consider it unbalanced, or are you using "unbalanced" and "stupid" interchangeably?

Quote

21. "It's definitely just a vocal minority that hates this class"

I can agree with that. I believe that the majority of players are either ambivalent, or apathetic while leaning towards the negative. (ie. dislike)

Hate is a very strong emotion, and I doubt the majority of players muster it over a mere video game.

Quote

22. "we still don't want to let you opt out of carrier games lol"

I'm not sure why that is funny, the reasoning makes perfect sense. It's only when you further elaborate, and mention that the initial release of subs will be an opt-out situation, that it becomes amusing.

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23. carriers and epicenter are allowed to exist together, apparently. 

Please elaborate.

Quote

24. remember, the creatures are in clanwars now.

True, but irrelevant for most.

Quote

25. Kidd Kidd Aki divisions are an EULA violation guys come on

This is patently ridiculous. I may be in favour of the existence of CVs, but the formation of divs with the function of countering a particular threat just seems like good strategy to me.

My only objection to it, (regardless of composition or the actual threat being countered, is that solo players have to step outside their comfort zone to implement it.

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3 minutes ago, Skpstr said:
Quote

10. "feature" where Franklin Delano Roosevelt is capable of making a full 90 degree turn IN ATTACK MODE, enabling it to approach you taking mitigated damage, from the completely wrong angle, and still turn and drop on your side anyways

Not sure what you mean here.

https://www.twitch.tv/gaishu/clip/SarcasticBlightedLardAsianGlow

This is what he is talking about, FDR is able to turn almost 360 degrees with the top reticle only getting minimally bigger.

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45 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

26. smooth-brained carriers that don't know who to strike, causing them to hover in your spawn for five minutes, permaspotting you that entire time

 

I'm confused. I assume that "smooth-brained" means lacking in intelligence.

If being "permaspotted for five minutes" causes you and other teammates grief all at once, why would it only be less intelligent players who can't pick a target doing it? Wouldn't that be a good idea?

I mean, I typically spot instead of attack ships near spawn, because longer spotting provides my team a clearer of where the enemy is going, and attacking ships right out of spawn, while they're "blobbed" for most effective AA by default, is a waste of planes early on that can leave you short later.

So what, that I said, would indicate that I am "smooth-brained"?

45 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

27. even more smooth-brained carriers that know exactly who they want to strike, causing them to suicide 12 planes in order to take off 10k of your health in the first four minutes of the game.

Maybe I have the term "smooth-brained" wrong, because that's a trade I might make, especoalky against a DD.

45 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

28. the exp multiplier is trash. carriers don't even get any rewards for playing the game. they exist solely to ruin yours

Not really true. With the signals and camo handed out like candy, CV play can be quite profitable, even if not as much as other ships.

Actually, CV play can be more profitable than other ships, if you don't have a minimum level of competence in other ship types.

For example, I typicall make the same, or slightly more, using Shokaku or Lexington, than Akizuki or Kagero, for example. This is because I'm fairly new to high-tier DD play, and DDs are generally acknowledged as the hardest class to play, while CVs are acknowledged as easier to play than anything but possibly BBs.

As far as ruining someone else's game, that's my intention regardless of the ship I take out. Not because I want people to have a bad time, but because getting blapped with no recourse is what I'm always trying to do to enemies, and as we see constantly here, many players dislike intensely.

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8 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

I'm not sure why that is funny, the reasoning makes perfect sense. It's only when you further elaborate, and mention that the initial release of subs will be an opt-out situation, that it becomes amusing.

Where was this said?

 

9 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

That's interesting. I wasn't aware any CV planes had detection that low.

OP is slightly exaggerating, but German CV fighters have like 3.5 km detection radius or something, and they have a patrol area of I think 3 km. My exact numbers may be off, but you get the idea. Id say its more an issue for CV's, as you can pretty much suddenly be in fighters without warning.

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4 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

FDR torp bombers that include 2 planes but drop 8 torps. Who in the hell thought of that idea?
 

it’s like WG is telling the playerbase that we will give you training wheels because you can’t aim torps properly. So we are going to let you throw out 8 torps per run so you will get some hits and flooding.

Yeah everything about the FDR is broke.  I mean its squadrons have like 12 planes each and 40k plus HP AND as you mentioned, you only need 2 of those 12 planes to survive to be able to drop 8 torpedoes.  Worse, because of the torpedo patterns, it isn't exactly hard to to hit with at minimum 6 of those torps, every attack.   Further all its types of squadrons have similar durability and firepower.  I mean here are its squadrons:

Rockets Fighters:

14 planes per squadrons

3200 HP per plane

44,800 HP per Squadron

2 planes per attack

Up to 7 attacks per Squadron

52 rockets fired per attack 

1650 damage per rocket

Up to 85,800 damage per attack.

 

Dive Bombers:

14 planes per Squadron

3710 HP per plane

51,940 HP per squadron

2 planes per attack

up to 7 attacks per squadron

8 bombs per attack

up to 89,900 damage per attack.

 

Torpedo Bombers:

14 planes per Squadron

3690 HP per plane

55,440 HP per squadron

2 planes per attack

up to 7 attacks

8 torpedoes per attack

Up to 33,864 damage per attack.

That it just crazy.  If we take the best ship AA in the game it does about 400 damage per second which means that most of these squadrons could last MORE THAT 2 MINUTES under constant AA fire by any single ship in the game and almost 30 seconds against even 5 of these ships combined all the while doing an average of 20,000-25,000 damage per drop, not including damage from perma-fires and prema-floods when, not if, they come back around for the second drop 25 seconds later, let along the 3 drop 25 seconds after that.  That is 60-75k in about a minute from the  start of the first attack and 9 times out of 10, those squadrons will easily last that full minute without any issue what so ever. 

Toxic, Toxic, Toxic is all I have to say. 

 

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1 minute ago, Skpstr said:

I'm confused. I assume that "smooth-brained" means lacking in intelligence.

 

 

1 minute ago, Skpstr said:

Maybe I have the term "smooth-brained" wrong, because that's a trade I might make, especoalky against a DD.

Quote

You have the term right, though in this context it makes zero sense. Your comments were pretty much spot on. ;)

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57 minutes ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

28. the exp multiplier is trash. carriers don't even get any rewards for playing the game. they exist solely to ruin yours

This is absolute bull puckey!!!  Only a total, dyed in the wool CV hater would make such a nonsensical claim.

 

1 hour ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

17. IMAGINE BEING ALLOWED TO PLAY THE GAME FOR TWO MINUTES AFTER YOU DIE 

People were begging for this change long before the rework, because planes don't just crash into the ocean instantly after their carrier is sunk.

 

1 hour ago, general_D_H_Chun said:

22. "we still don't want to let you opt out of carrier games lol"

You should never be able to opt out of anything in this game.  You should have to face it all, or you can opt to quit playing the game and uninstall.  You can choose which game mode you prefer (i.e. coop, randoms, operations, clan battles, or ranked battles).  

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Like others said, the first couple of points were actually pretty fair. Could've been worded better, but fair. Then the whole list devolves into nonsensical complaining about either non-issues or straight-up untrue facts, bordering on actually insulting the CV player. (Which is a big NO NO, and fairly funny given the OP was complaining about EULA violations.)

IF more people would take the time to actually write out a thoughtful post, maybe we would actually have some useful discussion.

Edit: post is even funnier when you realize OP has the top CV emblem

Edited by SirPent13
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1 minute ago, SirPent13 said:

Where was this said?

Which? That he found it funny? The lol at the end gave me that indication.

The separate mode for subs? I thought that was general knowledge. Apparently, once subs are completed "closed" testing, (including PTS) they will go live in a separate game mode, for "live" testing, ostensibly entering the general population after that's done.

My own theory is that, if they find a substantial enough number of players either playing or "opting out of" sub games, and queue times aren't appreciably impacted, they'll keep the separation permanent.

1 minute ago, SirPent13 said:

OP is slightly exaggerating, but German CV fighters have like 3.5 km detection radius or something, and they have a patrol area of I think 3 km. My exact numbers may be off, but you get the idea. Id say its more an issue for CV's, as you can pretty much suddenly be in fighters without warning.

Fair enough, that's something I've honestly never paid attention to, I just figured everybody's fighters popped up at the same distance as squadrons. (I also was thinking at the time that he meant the rocket fighter squadrons)

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1 minute ago, Skpstr said:

The separate mode for subs? I thought that was general knowledge. Apparently, once subs are completed "closed" testing, (including PTS) they will go live in a separate game mode, for "live" testing, ostensibly entering the general population after that's done.

Apologies forgot to actually say what I was confused about. The way the response about subs was worded made it sound the when subs are FINAL that they will enter the full game as an opt in/opt out, which is dumb. But now it appears you were referencing the TESTING of subs similar to the test event held on a live server a couple of months ago. 

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55 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

You are just missing too much important knowledge about how a CV plays and what weaknesses they have, if you don't actually play them yourself and I an guarantee these CV haters have a worse time of it, because they lack this knowledge. 

Ironic given that most, if not all top CV players agree that CVs practically speaking have no weaknesses nor counters and are therefore broken.

 

7 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

That it just crazy.

It is actually just your meta CV damage output put into a higher alpha strike but stretched over a longer period of time.

For example assuming that all torps hit in the time it takes a FDR to execute a single attack with the TBs and then having to wait for a second one, dealing ~34k damage, a Midway can hit twice for 30k alpha each, 60k total and have another strike on the way. The damage potential of a FDR is nothing special as it is curtailed by slow planes and the long attack cd. If it didn't have that you'd have a point but alas, that is not the case.
So either the damage potential of all meta CVs is broken - or none of them are.

Likewise FDR accuracy settings are nothing special at all. WG simply copied over the accuracy settings of the Audacious.

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Just now, SirPent13 said:

Apologies forgot to actually say what I was confused about. The way the response about subs was worded made it sound the when subs are FINAL that they will enter the full game as an opt in/opt out, which is dumb. But now it appears you were referencing the TESTING of subs similar to the test event held on a live server a couple of months ago. 

Yeah, my take is that it's only intended to be opt in/out until the subs are fully tuned, to avoid some of the mistakes with the way the CV rework was handled.

The chance it may be permanent is simply my own theory, based on a possibility that the biggest (and really only) hurdle to opt in/out was queue population, and that if it is seen to not actually be a problem, there's no reason not to.

I'm generally ambivalent towards an opt in/out thing, other than the potential effect on queues.

It may be a case of WG not considering a similar thing for CVs, because they also want it possible for subs, and while they might get away with 2 separate Random queues, 3 is a non-starter.

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32 minutes ago, SirPent13 said:

 

https://www.twitch.tv/gaishu/clip/SarcasticBlightedLardAsianGlow

This is what he is talking about, FDR is able to turn almost 360 degrees with the top reticle only getting minimally bigger.

Ok, that is ridiculous.

I often make runs like that in my other CVs, but unless the ship is stopped/creeping, I'm lucky to hit with one torp.

Although, to be fair, I only have one game in Hak, and don't have Midway yet, so I don't know how effective those runs are with the greatly increased ordnance levels of T10 CVs. (which I think is wrong in the first place. T10 CVs should only have an incremental increase in alpha over the T8s IMO)

Edited by Skpstr

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To still be alive for 2 minutes after you die. 

If you said that during the English Literature renaissance, a whole lot of Brits would spill their tea and start laughing. I do believe English couples, after they "die" together doing the hanky panky, seem a bit winded and often pass out from the exertion. But that is because they both struggle removing 8 layers of garments, tussle in a dank room, and that would make anybody tired. 

There was no cuddling or talking afterwards. So yeah, tired after 2 minutes, then appear to be dead, but technically not. 

Yes, confusing. But hilarious. Is WG making a funny? 

No. They are simulating a squadron that flew off that CV and just found out they have no place to land. 

IN RTS, commands to planes immediately stopped even if a full combat load. 

In this CV rework, you can use the combat load and the escort fighters if you have a consumable left for 2 minutes. Then they fall into the ocean. 

While your list of CV issues seem compelling, I must point out that a full section of the forums has every conceivable complaint of CVs before RTS, and after CV rework. 

You should use the search function and make comments on each and every one of them instead. Then you will have revived a half a million previously necro'ed threads in less time it took to suggest that. 

WG, seeing all those threads alive again would have two options: 

Address the issues  or;

Delete all CV threads.

 

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1 hour ago, Koogus said:

Your list started of good but then as it went on it just turned into a hissy fit

this.

I was thinking that this seemed the rare well-reasoned critique that included logic and even a few actual true facts, and was looking to compliment the OP.. and then he went full derp ship-poast.

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3 hours ago, Midnitewolf said:

Agree with most of your point and I will straight up say that, "THE FDR IS TOXIC [edited] THAT NEEDS TO BE REMOVED/REBALANCED IMMEDIATELTY!!!"

However, in general I don't have a major problem with CVs being in the game most of the time.  It is very rare for a CV to ruin my game (UNLESS IT IS THE FDR WITH ITS UNKILLABLE PLANES) in any way, shape or form regardless of the class of ship I play, in fact HE spammers (if I am in a BB), Radar ships (if I am in a DD)  and the occasional DD Torp ambush (Any ship) tends to ruin my day 100x worse than anything CV can do (Except the FDR).  

Also, despite CVs being my absolute least played class of ship, I still think they can be fun.  However, most of the people who hate CVs don't play CVs and thus don't have a clue how to counter them or just what difficulties CV players have to deal with when trying to do damage.   Its a much harder class to play then most of these non-CV haters think they are and "farming" damage as they call it requires much more skill that then realize.  I also suspect that if most CV haters actually played CVs for a while, they would realize that most CV (Except FDR) aren't that hard to deal with.  I honestly think the fact I do play CVs is the entire reason why I don't have an issue with them.  You are just missing too much important knowledge about how a CV plays and what weaknesses they have, if you don't actually play them yourself and I an guarantee these CV haters have a worse time of it, because they lack this knowledge. 

The FDR isn't toxic but it does have an extremely high skill floor and the people that have it now are top players. Although it will take longer because of the currency just like with the Smolensk as lesser players get it the appearance of being over powered  will go away.

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