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AdmiralQ

WG get a clue, don't put subs in this game

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8 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Players = NO, don't, we hate it, don't do it

WG = players asked for it and want it

Well, to be fair, players did ask for it.  For a very long time.

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Just now, Burnsy said:

Well, to be fair, players did ask for it.  For a very long time.

Minority at best. Been here since 2016 and very few please add subs to game threads. When they did come up most responses were no they won't work in this game. 

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Lots of players want subs in the game. No idea how we are going to handle getting torped by subs and by Sky Cancer at the same time, or how DDs will be expected to hunt them while revealed, etc.

The ping idea is idiotic and ignoring torpedo protection is torturing reality to the brink of insanity. So you know the devs will simply ignore all negative feedback and go right ahead with them. See the idiotic ReBork.

Yet another set of mechanics that is fun only for the player operating it. How much of that weight can the game bear?



 

Edited by Taichunger
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7 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Minority at best. Been here since 2016 and very few please add subs to game threads. When they did come up most responses were no they won't work in this game. 

It's hard to tell what the "minority" or "majority" of the player base really wants based on this forum because very few acutally use it.  Even of those very few, even less use it for anything other than just trolling.

Many did ask for it, for a long time over a lot of the mediums.  Reddit, streams, here, facebook, twitter etc.  That's the thing about asking for stuff.  Sometimes you get it whether you actually knew what you wanted or not.

That said, I think it's prudent to keep in mind that WG said that they will start off in their own mode for testing and then see how things go.  Who knows what the reality will be but they are still actively developing them so the only thing we know for sure, is that they intend on adding them to the game and they are spending money on their development.

It's a rare case that WG spends money and time on something, that doesn't actually make it into the game, in some form.

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19 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

It's hard to tell what the "minority" or "majority" of the player base really wants based on this forum because very few acutally use it.  Even of those very few, even less use it for anything other than just trolling.

Many did ask for it, for a long time over a lot of the mediums.  Reddit, streams, here, facebook, twitter etc.  That's the thing about asking for stuff.  Sometimes you get it whether you actually knew what you wanted or not.

That said, I think it's prudent to keep in mind that WG said that they will start off in their own mode for testing and then see how things go.  Who knows what the reality will be but they are still actively developing them so the only thing we know for sure, is that they intend on adding them to the game and they are spending money on their development.

It's a rare case that WG spends money and time on something, that doesn't actually make it into the game, in some form.

hence why I say close the warplane servers for a sub game

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26 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

 So you know the devs will simply ignore all negative feedback and go right ahead with them. See the idiotic ReBork.

 

You realize that the developers (i.e. the folks that build and maintain the product) don't get to make the decisions on what does or does not go into the game, right? 

The marketing suits in conjunction with senior management make those determinations based on what the market data is telling them and apparently it's telling them that the market wants submarines included in the product.

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Just now, WaywardVariable said:

You realize that the developers (i.e. the folks that build and maintain the product) don't get to make the decisions on what does or does not go into the game, right? 

The marketing suits in conjunction with senior management make those determinations based on what the market data is telling them and apparently it's telling them that the market wants submarines included in the product.

Who is going to decide how to implement them? The suits or the devs?

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Just now, Taichunger said:

Who is going to decide how to implement them? The suits or the devs?

Depends on what you mean by "implement" but generally it's a team effort with the suits (including the game designers) calling the shots with respect to the customer experience and the developers doing all the technical work to make it happen.

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11 minutes ago, WaywardVariable said:

Depends on what you mean by "implement" but generally it's a team effort with the suits (including the game designers) calling the shots with respect to the customer experience and the developers doing all the technical work to make it happen.

and considering how most games are coming out this is not a good system. ME Andromeda, Fallout 76, Anthem, Marvels Avengers......WOT

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46 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Who is going to decide how to implement them? The suits or the devs?

The suits.

I am a software developer.   Not in the world of video games though, boring stuff. 

As a general rule, we can give suggestions on how an idea might be better implemented from a code perspective. Raise the alarm about something that might cause a crazy amount of performance impact or a potential loophole in design that might have been overlooked but these are mechanical topics.  I don't mean software, in this case game mechanics, I mean the mechanics of the actual code.

When it comes to design, features and ideas, much more than a suggestion and we are often stepping out of our job description and onto someone else's toes. Usually that someone is a good bit further up the ladder than us.

We are not the car designers, we are the mechanics.  It's not up to us, we just have to make the dumb thing suddenly exist.  Whether we think it's a good idea or not. The reality of a developer is that unless we are a one man band, we have to do what we are told for a paycheck, just like everyone else. 

If you think something is a dumb idea, there is a reasonable chance that the fella/lady who actually sat down and wrote the thing, agrees with you. The people with the checkbooks said to make it happen though, so here we are.

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WG knows subs don't fit the game.

They're merely implementing them because they're afraid of running out of content.

Source:
https://venturebeat.com/2018/09/18/why-wargaming-is-disrupting-world-of-warships-with-submarines-and-revamped-aircraft-carriers/

Quote

GamesBeat: How long have you been thinking about submarines, as opposed to executing on the concept, getting it in the game?

Alexandr Sasha Nikolaev: We’ve been discussing submarines since the beginning. The first conclusion was that we didn’t think that it was necessary. They didn’t fit the gameplay meta. But eventually we realized that we’d otherwise run out of content, run out of historical ships. At the moment, we already have all the major nations represented, with most of the iconic, legendary ships.

 

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3 minutes ago, AdmiralQ said:

and considering how most games are coming out this is not a good system. ME Andromeda, Fallout 76, Anthem, Marvels Avengers......WOT

It's not just the video gaming business that works that way, the objective is to serve the wants/needs of the target market (or in some cases CREATE a market) in pursuit of maximizing profits and that generally doesn't get done when the gear heads are calling all the shots, which vexes me personally even though I understand why it has to be that way.

In many cases the end result is crap product that the unwashed masses love but that aficionado's can't stand.

 

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I question if it's even possible to fit subs in the game. As far as I can tell most people want the silent hunter kind of experience like what you see in das boot but that sort of thing doesn't fit in with this game's fast paced action design at all. And subs by their very presence make the game more campy and boring (less things to shoot at) so is it really worth it? They might be better off making a world of subs.

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1 hour ago, AdmiralQ said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O89bGeErC4Y

 

wether you guys like Flamu or not these are good points to be made.

 

Subs should not ignore torpedeo protection

 

they should not have homing torps

 

they should not be so fast underwater.

 

they should not charge battery underwater.

 

frankly they should not be in THIS game. give them their own game. hell closed down Warplanes, War of Thunder has clearly beaten you there. use those servers for a sub game.

Subs are coming, there is no question about that, WG has invested to much time and money to scrap the entire project just because the playerbase doesnt want it.

And it will probably have all things shown in Flamus video because WG want wallet warriors to buy all OP premium subs and dabloons to Free XP all the Sub lines to T10 without ever trying to play a sub at lower tiers. And after the huge cashgrab they will nerf them all ("balance") them into oblivion and fool all those who just throwed money away to get them.

As a DD main I just love this idea. This means subs will take over the suicide role of pushing caps and all DDs can just play the flanks and scout and torp. No more CVs, radars, hydro etc etc to worry about in capzones. No more going into a killbox, just damage farm like all cruisers and BBs.

For BBs this will really suck tho. Imagine trying to dodge all DD (Shima, Asashio, Harugumo etc etc ) torps, while getting nuked by Subs homing torps doing citadel damage, while getting nuked by CV AP rockets, AP bombs, soon "Bouncing Betty" bombs ..... while getting firespammed by a Smolenk. Good luck with that.

 

Assasins Creed Valhalla and Cyberpunk is being released in 3 weeks ...... just saying.....

Edited by Oldschool_Gaming_YT
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2 minutes ago, Oldschool_Gaming_YT said:

Subs are coming, there is no question about that, WG has invested to much time and money to scrap the entire project just because the playerbase doesnt want it.

 

If the lions share of the playerbase doesn't want it and the company does it anyways just because they have sunk costs on the project then that's just a round about way of committing business suicide.

I think the issue here is conflating the players that read these forums with the lions share of the playerbase. 

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1 hour ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Players = NO, don't, we hate it, don't do it

WG = players asked for it and want it

One of the reasons I came back to this game was my buddy told me about the supercontainers.
I was using them to get port and reserve slots, and hoping for a 90-180 day premium.
After about 2-3 months I saw this:
 We have listened to your feedback, and so we are going to nerf the crap out of SCs.
The big rewards are gone, and the frequency that you get them has been crushed.
This should better reflect the overwhelming desires in the community.
-I had already been lurking on the forum. Never saw anyone ask for SCs to be nerfed.

1 hour ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Been here since 2016 and very few please add subs to game threads

Been here since they first made a web site. Pre-Forum days.
Because we had nothing better to do but wait around, subs got thoroughly discussed.
The conclusion was to agree with the devs, that it couldn't be implemented in a good way.

But now they've hit a wall.
The kiddies are always demanding new content, and most of the ships that get released
are just more of the same. They run this game like a MOBA, which means every 6 weeks you need
to upgrade your weapons or get left behind. But they are trapped because of the WWII genre.

You can expect to see repeats of more nerfing.
Remember when you had some ships that had great AA?
They ruined those ships with a universal AA nerf.
Now if you want great AA, you have to get the 'new' ships.

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Subs have the similar attribute with CVs in that, they will either be overpowered to their opponents or underpowered to the sub captain.

The problem they have is that they are slow and ponderous and quite squishy and have to expose themselves to a great extent and also can't zoom around the map at any moment during the entire game with no risk.

So, given that, I think they'll tend to be patch dependent.  In the initial release (which is almost a certainty), they'll be quite overpowered.  Probably the most they'll ever be.  And then in the next patch they'll dial them back or gimmick nerf them or give counters to the classes that the subs will feed on during the first patch cycle.

And after that first set of nerfs, they'll probably fade into the background.  The Assasio class.  You seem them every now and then but mostly when they first get a buff.

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23 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

WG knows subs don't fit the game.

They're merely implementing them because they're afraid of running out of content.

Source:
https://venturebeat.com/2018/09/18/why-wargaming-is-disrupting-world-of-warships-with-submarines-and-revamped-aircraft-carriers/

 

For sure.  I am sure "Running out" of ships, interesting ones with interesting mechanics to put on them anyway, had to have been something WG was aware of since day one.  It can't, not, happen given enough time.

I think the difference is the players who are super stuck on some level of history vs those that just like playing the game.  Personally, they could add UFOs for all I care.  As long as they are fun, I will play them.

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On 10/23/2020 at 9:15 AM, AdmiralQ said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O89bGeErC4Y

 

wether you guys like Flamu or not these are good points to be made.

 

Subs should not ignore torpedeo protection

 

they should not have homing torps

 

they should not be so fast underwater.

 

they should not charge battery underwater.

 

frankly they should not be in THIS game. give them their own game. hell closed down Warplanes, War of Thunder has clearly beaten you there. use those servers for a sub game.

Actually, I don't like the guy, uses too much foul language and its mostly about "him" as he plays the game with opinions thrown in every now and then...

These "good" points have been made by others whom I do respect and like, but they suggest improvements rather than dropping subs altogether... the points Flamu makes are not really good ones, for example...

1) Torpedo protection on ships wasn't always successful... WoWs is merely taking that into account.
2) most torpedoes were homing, in a way. They could home in on the metal of the ship... as opposed to using "contact" fuses.
3) Torpedoes are no different to ship torpedoes, mostly... the speed was the speed...
4) Battery charging while submerged with the use of a Snorkel was actually a Dutch invention which the Germans obtained after they invaded, and given to the allies by those escaping to fight with England. However, it wasn't widely used... not even by the Germans.

EDIT! Poor choice of words on my part: read it as "I don't like his videos"... from all accounts, he is a very nice guy. Sorry for the bad choice of words on my part. Its the same with comedians that use profanity as the only way to make people laugh... gone are the days of Bob Hope and Robin Williams....

Edited by kiwi1960
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3 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

I'm good with subs IF --  WG created a separate 'Combined Arms' mode and kept the CVs & subs out of Random. 

Yeah but then you could get away from being monetized.

Edited by CommodoreKang

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I believe subs have a place in the game, not in Randoms though. 

All that said, my big no no moment is on the following. WG has managed every other patch to either make CVs broken, either overpowered or trash. And this has been going on for two years. I remember WG devs and staff saying the balancing process would take at most 6-8 months and all will be fine. Welp, here we are, 2 years on and still no stable state as far as CVs and AA are concerned.

So how am I supposed to trust them to implement subs when they haven't managed to fix the game with regards to another class?

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18 minutes ago, WaywardVariable said:

If the lions share of the playerbase doesn't want it and the company does it anyways just because they have sunk costs on the project then that's just a round about way of committing business suicide.

I think the issue here is conflating the players that read these forums with the lions share of the playerbase. 

I disagree.

A forum is a representative of the general player base. If the majority of forum members are for or against something it is a pretty good indicator of what the general player base would/wouldn't want. Forums also contain your most dedicated players which are not a group you should ignore and take lightly.

I also think WG has shown again and again they will do what they want even if the players are against it short of outright revolt like NTC (which they are slowly working back in anyway in different ways - no real surprise there). WG does not strike me as being very business savvy frankly (unless you think milk as much as you can as fast as you can at the expense of longevity is a good business model) and they have shown over and over by their own words that they have little respect for their customers. 

What saves them is they have the market cornered on this type of game so even though so many players get frustrated and disgusted by what they do there is no real alternative. If there were, and WG ran things the same, they would have gone under long ago.

JMHO of course and you can disagree.

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