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Helstrem

A brief comment on the state of Zaō's Unique Upgrade

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The description of Zaō's Unique Upgrade supplied with the task to earn it is "Improved Bridge: Improves the ship's performance in open waters."

I submit that this is no longer true.  It was true when the UU improved Zaō's rudder shift time to DD levels, but now that that feature has been removed the UU does not improve Zaō's open water performance when compared to the readily available Gun Fire Control System Mod 2.

What does Zaō's UU do?  Currently it reduces dispersion by 7% and increases range by 8%.  Because Zaō is already hyper-accurate, using a DD dispersion chart, the -7% dispersion is inconsequential.  That leaves the 8% range increase....which is doubled by the readily available Gun Fire Control System Mod 2's +16% range increase.  Given that the -7% dispersion is negligible, what is the point of the UU that only offers half of the meaningful benefit of the easily obtained Gun Fire Control System Mod 2?  I see no situation in which Zaō's UU is competitive.

The other purpose, per WG, of UU is to open up a different play style for a ship, however Zaō's UU utterly fails to do so because it is, functionally, nothing but a weaker version of the Gun Fire Control System Mod 2.  It offers Zaō nothing of note in compensation for losing 8% range.

I would suggest that removing the -7% dispersion from the UU and replacing it with the removed -20% rudder shift time would make the UU potentially useful.  Optionally perhaps retain the -7% dispersion and replace the +8% range increase with -30% rudder shift time, but given Zaō's battleship like turning radius I am not sure this would be viable; improved rudder shift only goes so far, the ship needs to actually move as well for it to matter.

 

I am finishing the grind for Zaō's UU now, but I cannot see it ever being mounted in its current state and I am only getting it in case it is someday changed to be useful.

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I think you make a fair point.  However, "Improved Bridge" I took to reduce to "better fire comm/control".  A better name would seem to be "Improved Sniper". 

WG has a somewhat higher opinion of -7% dispersion than you do.  I wonder if there is included an improvement to Sigma that isn't advertised.  That might be interesting.

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Just now, iDuckman said:

I think you make a fair point.  However, "Improved Bridge" I took to reduce to "better fire comm/control".  A better name would seem to be "Improved Sniper". 

WG has a somewhat higher opinion of -7% dispersion than you do.  I wonder if there is included an improvement to Sigma that isn't advertised.  That might be interesting.

-7% dispersion is good, if the ship in question doesn't have very tight dispersion already.  Zaō does, and so it only reduces her dispersion by about 7 meters.

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11 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

The description of Zaō's Unique Upgrade supplied with the task to earn it is "Improved Bridge: Improves the ship's performance in open waters."

I submit that this is no longer true.  It was true when the UU improved Zaō's rudder shift time to DD levels, but now that that feature has been removed the UU does not improve Zaō's open water performance when compared to the readily available Gun Fire Control System Mod 2.

What does Zaō's UU do?  Currently it reduces dispersion by 7% and increases range by 8%.  Because Zaō is already hyper-accurate, using a DD dispersion chart, the -7% dispersion is inconsequential.  That leaves the 8% range increase....which is doubled by the readily available Gun Fire Control System Mod 2's +16% range increase.  Given that the -7% dispersion is negligible, what is the point of the UU that only offers half of the meaningful benefit of the easily obtained Gun Fire Control System Mod 2?  I see no situation in which Zaō's UU is competitive.

The other purpose, per WG, of UU is to open up a different play style for a ship, however Zaō's UU utterly fails to do so because it is, functionally, nothing but a weaker version of the Gun Fire Control System Mod 2.  It offers Zaō nothing of note in compensation for losing 8% range.

I would suggest that removing the -7% dispersion from the UU and replacing it with the removed -20% rudder shift time would make the UU potentially useful.  Optionally perhaps retain the -7% dispersion and replace the +8% range increase with -30% rudder shift time, but given Zaō's battleship like turning radius I am not sure this would be viable; improved rudder shift only goes so far, the ship needs to actually move as well for it to matter.

 

I am finishing the grind for Zaō's UU now, but I cannot see it ever being mounted in its current state and I am only getting it in case it is someday changed to be useful.

A very astute observation.

I have tinkered with UUs on a few ships and found that since WG modified them, they no longer hold their value. 

Granted, some had to be nerfed. Acceleration upgrades shouldn't even be in the game. It encourage throttle jokeying. That really got old.

Rudder shift, turret traverse, and range should have been the gold standard across the board.

Since they are a RB commodities that are basically reserved for the few that actually reset lines, I feel like they should have been straight up competitive enhancements, but with no drawbacks. It's expensive, let's call it for what it is and move on. Other ship type UUs,  should have been standardized as well. 

Let's not overcomplicate it.

CV UUs should be so straight forward buffs.

WG knows exactly how many players could actually obtain these, and it is actually quite a low number.

Despite unicums and those that can't afford it, had it been done that way from the very beginning, WG would have has steady revenue from the bureau.

This reminds me of a certain mmorpg. You had to have a certain combination of forces to effectively defeat another force of different composition. But the mechanics became so convoluted it never made any sense. It was patch this or that, remove this or that, and finally the version that was left became largely ineffective.

There should be a linear progression to upgrades. Not add something and give up something.

Players have enough trouble just figuring out the ship, only to add the UU, but it actually made the ship worse, not better.

Players that don't do RB should miss out on this. Just like players miss out on steel ships. Make that wall, keep out less competitive players. Make that wall, keep out those that refuse to reset. 

Then players that don't go either route can focus on development with their ships as is.

If players later decide to go steel or RB, then the incentive is the content behind that wall. Those players have a decision to make. Pay in to get it or wait longer trying to work around it without spending money.

Just keep the UUs simple and direct. No card game special add on features that give as well as take.

Straight up beast UUs. If you want it bad enough, reset your ships. WG can even increase the price of tokens after my proposed changes because they will be selling buffs.

It will be akin to gold ammo, but without the drama that came with it.

Anyway, that is my take on it.

 

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I generally concur, especially as Zao is only a mid-low powered ship, her UU can afford to be a bit better without causing issues, and I'd definitely take the rudder over the accuracy. 

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I'm currently grinding the Zao UU now but given how useless it is I have no plans on actually using it. Hopefully it gets buff along with several other UU.

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Couldn’t agree more, zao does not need more accuracy. Anything else such as rudder shift, ROF, turret traverse, acceleration, anything would be more useful than the accuracy. 

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Well WG seems to disagree with you.

 

According to them, Zao in her current state is fine and the UU is also fine. 

 

But yeah I get your point. I want Zao UU to be better but most importantly, I want Zao to get some small buff 

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4 hours ago, Helstrem said:

... snip

I am finishing the grind for Zaō's UU now, but I cannot see it ever being mounted in its current state and I am only getting it in case it is someday changed to be useful.

I finished the UU last month and came to the same conclusion ... it's not really worth using at the expense of losing range.

 

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It was just too darn popular.  I think their reasoning was that it's supposed to be an "alternative" playstyle and it became a mandatory one.  Whatever the reason, it turned out to be a huge waste of time and effort.

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9 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Granted, some had to be nerfed. Acceleration upgrades shouldn't even be in the game. It encourage throttle jokeying. That really got old.

Lololol. Oh noooo something which takes actual skill to use and to counter.

 

 

9 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

I feel like they should have been straight up competitive enhancements, but with no drawbacks. It's expensive, let's call it for what it is and move on. Other ship type UUs,  should have been standardized as well.

So you want them to go back to the NTC model of being straight Upgrades. 
 

Good job you just made the same suggestion that WG suggested last year and the entire community hates you for it ( if it was taken serious). 
 

  The argument on why that is bad has been had far too many times.  The least of the arguments is that you have to do years of grinding just to get 1 completely effective and competitive ship.  As players would not only need to grind to Tier 10  once to offer a fully competetive ship. But first they need to get a bunch of T10s to unlock RB then regrind a line a few times before being able to get 1 single fully competitive ship.   


A Stalingrad  doesn’t stop you from having other ships at full combat power  so Collecting steel for it does not reduce the full effectiveness Status of any other ship. 

 

 

 

Edited by eviltane

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26 minutes ago, eviltane said:

Lololol. Oh noooo something which takes actual skill to use and to counter.

To be fair, it bugs me too. 

But I don't have the time, inclination, or patience to learn to counter it, so I just installed the Running Lights mod lol.

 

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18 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

To be fair, it bugs me too. 

But I don't have the time, inclination, or patience to learn to counter it, so I just installed the Running Lights mod lol.

 

Ohh I have definitely been frustrated by  it before . The running lights mod definitely helps. As smoke stacks can be a difficult to read indicator of what speed changes are happening.  I should point out though that any ship which has torpedoes has an indicator for speed changes that is far more sensitive then the  mod. 

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1 hour ago, eviltane said:

Lololol. Oh noooo something which takes actual skill to use and to counter.

 

 

So you want them to go back to the NTC model of being straight Upgrades. 
 

Good job you just made the same suggestion that WG suggested last year and the entire community hates you for it ( if it was taken serious). 
 

  The argument on why that is bad has been had far too many times.  The least of the arguments is that you have to do years of grinding just to get 1 completely effective and competitive ship.  As players would not only need to grind to Tier 10  once to offer a fully competetive ship. But first they need to get a bunch of T10s to unlock RB then regrind a line a few times before being able to get 1 single fully competitive ship.   


A Stalingrad  doesn’t stop you from having other ships at full combat power  so Collecting steel for it does not reduce the full effectiveness Status of any other ship. 

 

 

 

True, however, the problem is the power creep right?

By limiting the UUs to a serious grind, fewer players would have this advantage.

I know the real problem here. Most players don't have nearly all the lines done to 10. And some "elites" overspecialized so much that they detest resetting the one tree they have and that they spent the bulk of their time and fortunes gambling on two lines maybe?

Put all your eggs in one basket and it bites you. This is the problem with some players. They are limited in their ship choices, thus limited in overall skills.

If you say hypothetically was a Russian cruiser main only, then that is the only line you got. Probably the French on the side. Etc.

So, sure, that was the pushback then. Because overspecialized players would have to grind something they don't know how to play just to get ships, UUs, etc.

Why just look me up. I am like a Pokemon master. I will play all the lines up.

Are you saying that some players don't have the fortitude, tolerance, or skills necessary to reset 4-6 lines twice a year?

What does that say about those players?

IDK. Seems like it will always be one or two lines and the players being relatively one dimensional.

Because if everyone knows you only play one type all the time, then they only got to match you up against your counter. It makes such a player vastly predictable.

I prefer unpredictability. You can't counter chaos on the field of battle. Making your opponent uncomfortable with the unknown is a game changer.

Think about that.

No one wants to be a one hit wonder.

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1 hour ago, eviltane said:

Lololol. Oh noooo something which takes actual skill to use and to counter.

 

 

So you want them to go back to the NTC model of being straight Upgrades. 
 

Good job you just made the same suggestion that WG suggested last year and the entire community hates you for it ( if it was taken serious). 
 

  The argument on why that is bad has been had far too many times.  The least of the arguments is that you have to do years of grinding just to get 1 completely effective and competitive ship.  As players would not only need to grind to Tier 10  once to offer a fully competetive ship. But first they need to get a bunch of T10s to unlock RB then regrind a line a few times before being able to get 1 single fully competitive ship.   


A Stalingrad  doesn’t stop you from having other ships at full combat power  so Collecting steel for it does not reduce the full effectiveness Status of any other ship. 

 

 

 

If it takes you years to grind up one line..... Fill in the blank.

Because that statement is hilarious among the 30k battle crowd.

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3 minutes ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

If it takes you years to grind up one line..... Fill in the blank.

Because that statement is hilarious among the 30k battle crowd.

NO read my words. I said It would take years to get a fully competitive tier 10 ship.  Because your suggestion locks every fully upgraded ship behind the RB.  Which requires multiple tier 10 lines to unlock and multiple grinds up the line to then get the UU.  

Edited by eviltane

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I really have a problem with WG deciding to just nerf things that take a long time  to attain without a really good reason to do so.  Were the UUs, as they were, really hurting the game?  They were in existence for years without the game blowing up.  People put time, money and effort into getting them.  They helped me decide which ships/lines to work on.  Changing them was nothing more than a money grab.  So like  it or not, most of the new UUs suck and are locked behind the RB wall.  This is just one more reason why I have no respect for WG.

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1 hour ago, eviltane said:

NO read my words. I said It would take years to get a fully competitive tier 10 ship.  Because your suggestion locks every fully upgraded ship behind the RB.  Which requires multiple tier 10 lines to unlock and multiple grinds up the line to then get the UU.  

Multiple times as in resetting the same line over and over?

Because I reset the DD line on IJN twice and the rest of 4 more other lines once to get Ohio.

I have multiple lines reset even now and Flambass demonstrated that you can get up a line quite fast if you are proficient in that line and apply the economic flags.

I think you need to see his video. It is surprising easier in the past year to go up a line because WG essentially made it easier for new players.

And most recently, WG added tier 5 to the RB point list. 0.9.9 is the first time that happened. That will make it even faster. Because I used to bypass all the tier 5's.

I am not saying it is easier for everyone. But I got a lot of these lines done. So that is easy for me. I got 4 baking right now. And when they are done, I reset again. 

Having a lot of tech trees done gives me flexibility. 

If you don't have as many, then I fully understand that this could be a struggle.

Having the experience (pun intended) to know what gets me the XP on these lines is a distinction advantage.

One that few players explore for reasons I am not able to understand, but I guess not many players would be capable of multitasking or the knack for taking any ship out and rocking it like they sailed it for years.

I suppose, there are various reasons most players are not able to do this. 

It would be very hard if they never started out doing it from the beginning.

 

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1 hour ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Multiple times as in resetting the same line over and over?

You need 5 tier 10s before you can reset your first line.   Then its what,  3 resets to get the first UU ?     That is at least grinding 8 times to tier 10s  to get 1 fully upgraded one. 

 

It would be an utter disaster to a tell a new player they need to grind to tier 10  7 times to get one single ship into full competitive shape.     

Edited by eviltane

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5 hours ago, eviltane said:

Ohh I have definitely been frustrated by  it before . The running lights mod definitely helps. As smoke stacks can be a difficult to read indicator of what speed changes are happening.  I should point out though that any ship which has torpedoes has an indicator for speed changes that is far more sensitive then the  mod. 

Once I know what they're doing, I usually just single fire in slightly different locations, to cover all the bases. Same with a DD running away and maneuvering.

If they're being slippery yet predictable, I'll single fire a turret, to get them to dodge, and drop the rest where they ought to end up.

Speed changes don't bother me, although they can be frustrating. If that's all people did, I probably wouldn't bother with mods.

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6 hours ago, eviltane said:

You need 5 tier 10s before you can reset your first line.   Then its what,  3 resets to get the first UU ?     That is at least grinding 8 times to tier 10s  to get 1 fully upgraded one. 

 

It would be an utter disaster to a tell a new player they need to grind to tier 10  7 times to get one single ship into full competitive shape.     

I may be wrong, but they lowered the requirement last update 098 or 097. so I think it is just the one tier 10 line. And I think they even changed that recently in 099.

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2 minutes ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

I may be wrong, but they lowered the requirement last update 098 or 097. so I think it is just the one tier 10 line. And I think they even changed that recently in 099.

I mean i have it unlocked without even having a tier 10, and at least in game it doesnt say you need more than one unlocked. still, im not sure its worth it to reset a line.

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17 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

I mean i have it unlocked without even having a tier 10, and at least in game it doesnt say you need more than one unlocked. still, im not sure its worth it to reset a line.

Not in their current iteration. UUs started out great for some ships, meh in others. 

If you are starting out, you will hold off until you get a handle on the other ship lines as experience in understanding the game play is really a new player's priority.

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1 minute ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Not in their current iteration. UUs started out great for some ships, meh in others. 

If you are starting out, you will hold off until you get a handle on the other ship lines as experience in understanding the game play is really a new player's priority.

Nah, more than that. The time it takes to get to tier 10 in COOP only makes reseting not worth it to me, no matter how handy the UUs or the ships are. Ill get Research points from the Dockyards and thatll likely be it.

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