Champagne Shells - What am I doing wrong?

[AnimaL21]

I can rock citadels with Gascogne, Rich, Alsace, JB.  I can rock citadels with lots of other 16" BB lines on regular basis.  The champagne shells just seem to elude me for citadels.  Is there something fundamentally different that I am rarely if ever seeing citadels with her?   I'd tried minute adjustments to aim as I would with any other BB shell, further forward, further back, higher, lower.  I drop them in right at the waterline and I end up with statistically more overpens than other ships, at range or close.  I aim at waterline, at upper belts, at barbettes, at 25mm bows. Cruisers nearly always overpen.   Not much seems to be helping.  Distance doesnt seem to matter much.  I've long range sniped, mid range too.  I don't dare close to short range with another BB.  Is it just me or is there something different about these shells that I am not grasping?  Are they TOO accurate?  Am I getting cits with these other ships because they randomize more?   Should I drop the aiming module?    

 

It would be different if I wasn't seeing lots of success with other BB shells.  I could chalk that up to bad approach or aim.  Is it just RNG trolling me?   Anyone else having a weird problem like this or found some different need for these shells to do the work? 

 

 

 

[volutionseba]

Hello :))
Just give her time and patience (and pray for RNGesus)
Champagne it's a monster when you got an enemy ship on broadside, but sometimes it just too accurate that you end up missing/overpenin' his hull.
My better and best advice it's patience, no more than that: when a ship it's spoted just point all the guns to the enemy, drink a sip of your coffee, wait and watch him: it's he turning? he's slowing down? will he ran away? And when the enemy ship commit to his move, you press the trigger.
At least this metod works very well to me and I hope it helps you too :)) o7

[BrushWolf]

I think you need to remove the cork first.

[AnimaL21]

17 minutes ago, volutionseba said:

 sometimes it just too accurate that you end up missing/overpenin' his hull.

Thinking maybe I will try shifting the slot 3 module to the turret rotation instead of the aiming mod and see if taking away some accuracy helps. 

 

 

[Sovereigndawg]

Champagne shells usually shatter.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

Champagne, as with Slava, has really, really High Penetration for her AP shells.  Below is an Artillery Chart showing the AP Penetration values for Champagne, Richelieu, Izumo, Musashi.  Champagne has better Penetration at range than Musashi and her 460mm shells.  Izumo's 410mm AP is no slouch, Champagne has stronger Pen than hers.

If you're fighting at closer and closer ranges, especially engaging Cruiser targets, you're going to Overpen like mad.  Slava, Champagne got very high AP Penetration so that they can Pen and Citadel stuff at long range, which was what WG designed them for.

 

Try to fight with distance and see how it goes.

 

[AnimaL21]

1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Try to fight with distance and see how it goes.

How far would you say is "distance" ?  >20km?  >25km?   I still need to try dropping the aiming mod 1 and see if having a little more chaos in the shell drop patterns helps at all.  

 

 

[901234]

20 minutes ago, AnimaL21 said:

How far would you say is "distance" ?  >20km?  >25km?   I still need to try dropping the aiming mod 1 and see if having a little more chaos in the shell drop patterns helps at all.  

If you were doing fine with French 380's then roughly 3-4km further would be needed. Reference target is a Chapaev [100mm belt w/ ~19m beam]

1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Champagne, as with Slava, has really, really High Penetration for her AP shells.  Below is an Artillery Chart showing the AP Penetration values for Champagne, Richelieu, Izumo, Musashi.  Champagne has better Penetration at range than Musashi and her 460mm shells.  Izumo's 410mm AP is no slouch, Champagne has stronger Pen than hers.

If you're fighting at closer and closer ranges, especially engaging Cruiser targets, you're going to Overpen like mad.  Slava, Champagne got very high AP Penetration so that they can Pen and Citadel stuff at long range, which was what WG designed them for.

 

Try to fight with distance and see how it goes.

The conclusion here isn't wrong but technically the penetration itself is not why shells are more likely to over-penetrate. From what others have gathered, post-penetration velocity decreases less for effective armor thicknesses that are significantly lower than the shell's penetration. As battleship shells tend to have much higher penetration than the thicknesses cruiser belts at that tier, the main difference is caused by the fact that Champagne's shell impact velocity is much higher compared to even the French 380's [Richelieu, Jean Bart etc.] which are already faster than a lot of the shells of BBs at that tier. 

[AnimaL21]

52 minutes ago, 901234 said:

If you were doing fine with French 380's then roughly 3-4km further would be needed. Reference target is a Chapaev [100mm belt w/ ~19m beam]

The conclusion here isn't wrong but technically the penetration itself is not why shells are more likely to over-penetrate. From what others have gathered, post-penetration velocity decreases less for effective armor thicknesses that are significantly lower than the shell's penetration. As battleship shells tend to have much higher penetration than the thicknesses cruiser belts at that tier, the main difference is caused by the fact that Champagne's shell impact velocity is much higher compared to even the French 380's [Richelieu, Jean Bart etc.] which are already faster than a lot of the shells of B[edited] at that tier. 

So  you're saying the problems come because it either needs a fatter ship or something to slow it down before it punches out the back side?   Would the old "aim at the water in front of it" trick work here then? 

At the very least I am happy to see maybe its not just incorrect observation or execution on my part :)

[901234]

4 minutes ago, AnimaL21 said:

So  you're saying the problems come because it either needs a fatter ship or something to slow it down before it punches out the back side?   Would the old "aim at the water in front of it" trick work here then? 

At the very least I am happy to see maybe its not just incorrect observation or execution on my part :)

Aiming in the water would work, however the aiming area where you can get pens / citadels is not very large [especially at close range] so it might be a bit of a gamble. 

[AnimaL21]

20 minutes ago, 901234 said:

Aiming in the water would work, however the aiming area where you can get pens / citadels is not very large [especially at close range] so it might be a bit of a gamble. 

Ok, one more Q... for aiming at range, especially with spotter plane, am i better off dropping them on the deck, or still aiming for the sides?  

[901234]

55 minutes ago, AnimaL21 said:

Ok, one more Q... for aiming at range, especially with spotter plane, am i better off dropping them on the deck, or still aiming for the sides?  

I would assume that at those ranges citadel overpenetration becomes less of a problem. In addition, as Champagne shells have shallow arcs - even at those ranges - and even for maximizing hit chance [as opposed going for citadels] you should probably still try to hit the sides. 

[HazeGrayUnderway]

16 hours ago, 901234 said:

I would assume that at those ranges citadel overpenetration becomes less of a problem. In addition, as Champagne shells have shallow arcs - even at those ranges - and even for maximizing hit chance [as opposed going for citadels] you should probably still try to hit the sides. 

I'd agree:  I've seen videos of those shells from Champagne and Slava flying, they were really low even at a distance.

 

The "thiccer" the target, the better.  But if you can get hits on a bow on / stern of a Cruiser, if you can hit, you'll get a lot of ship for the AP to fuse inside.  It's why I cringe every time I see a Cruiser player try to bow tank or show only the stern to a Battleship that overmatches their extremities   If the BB gets lucky with their dispersion, they're going to get lots of Pens, at the very least.

[AnimaL21]

So just as a follow up,  I did drop the aiming mod off, and grabbed the turret rotation mod.  I still don't see much difference in the dispersion anyways, and the rotation is more comfortable this way too.  

Second, I think adding some range as you suggested did help.  Keeping the ranges above 20km yielded 6 cits in 5 volleys in one of the couple matches i played with it.   Plenty more in other games as well.  Markedly better than before.   I consider the matter closed now. Thanks again :) 

 

 

[GrayPanther2018]

I am not much of a BB player but I got the Champagne because I have more french BBs. I am playing it more than I normally would because of the 200% bonus it has till 9.11. Citadels are hard to get but I am not that used to BB guns yet. The problems I have besides overpens and not doing much damage to angled Bismarks is the armor.

What little LWM has said about this ship is that it has horrible armor (it seems to be more a battle cruiser than battleship) and getting caught broadside will get me deleted. So I have been tying to play at a distance and not get shot at as much. I know the ships is weak as I look forward to spotting the bot Champagne (CoOp) because I can do damage to it.

What is most annoying is all the karma down votes I am getting for not pushing like a Bismark and getting deleted the first three minutes.

Is playing the flanks and staying 20km from red BBs the way to go with this ship?

[HazeGrayUnderway]

On 11/3/2020 at 6:28 PM, GrayPanther2018 said:

I am not much of a BB player but I got the Champagne because I have more french BBs. I am playing it more than I normally would because of the 200% bonus it has till 9.11. Citadels are hard to get but I am not that used to BB guns yet. The problems I have besides overpens and not doing much damage to angled Bismarks is the armor.

What little LWM has said about this ship is that it has horrible armor (it seems to be more a battle cruiser than battleship) and getting caught broadside will get me deleted. So I have been tying to play at a distance and not get shot at as much. I know the ships is weak as I look forward to spotting the bot Champagne (CoOp) because I can do damage to it.

What is most annoying is all the karma down votes I am getting for not pushing like a Bismark and getting deleted the first three minutes.

Is playing the flanks and staying 20km from red BBs the way to go with this ship?

Since we're talking specifically Co-op:

 

I actually brawl with my Champagne in that game mode.  Complete even with Secondary Spec.

When you compare her armor to normal BB Richelieu, while the belt is a bit thinner, everything else but the extremities is the same.  When I close to brawl with Champagne against another BB, I charge angled and let the big AP shells bounce off the belt armor.  Do NOT go straight in with the bow or give the bot BBs clean, straight shots to the stern.  That's where they'll Overmatch you.

 

Is this the ideal way to play Champagne in PVE?  Probably not.  My playstyle is risky.  But I like to brawl with all my Battleships in PVE.  I even have Missouri, Iowa, Montana in Secondary Spec, complete with AAM2 in Slot 6.

Spoiler

 

I looked up your Co-op Battleship stats, you can do better.  What I think you're doing wrong is you're not using angling tactics and / or showing flat broadside to get hit and punished.

 

Overmatch is also a thing to consider both offensively and defensively.  With such thin extremities, Champagne should not be tanking with her bow / stern against other Battleships.

Offensively with Champagne and her 380mm guns, you need to know what you can and can't Overmatch with them.  Here's a little cheat sheet on it.  Know what your 380mm AP can and can't Overmatch and place your shells accordingly.  Shells that strike an armor section that it Overmatch do not need to worry about bounce checks.  This is huge in damage dealing, especially for Battleships.  Check out different ships in port, use the Armor Viewer, and look at the different ship's armor.  Eventually you learn general armor values for different ship types, tiers, and how your shells can interact with the targets you're seeing.

 

Focus on survival:  Use angling to improve your Battleship's defensive ability, tank with your angled armored belt.

Another thing to consider defensively is what ships have LOS to you, who can feasibly attack you (even over small islands), and who can see your broadside.  Being well angled for one threat may mean you are showing flat broadside to another.  Something to help is to not be so close where a multitude of threats are around you and focus you down.  If you can go in and engage 1-2 enemies while using the map terrain so that the other 4 bots can't attack you, you will go a long way in survival for your Battleship.  A lot of decision making is based off the minimap.

 

If you survive longer with your BB, I promise you, your damage numbers will go up.  The longer you live, the more shots you get off, and so the more hits and damage you rack up.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

@GrayPanther2018

Something I forgot to mention is what you can do with Battleship AP against another angled Battleship.  Shooting AP against the hull, especially if you can't Overmatch, is futile as you're going to get bounced.  Shoot at the base of the Superstructure instead.

You will not get Citadel hits with your AP, you will get some Overpens.  But a good well placed AP salvo there can get you several Penetration hits, and that's good damage.  You can do this with all your Battleships against another BB trying to angle against you.

In the picture below, if I'm trying to shoot AP anywhere at the hull at this angle, and I don't have IJN LOLPEN 460mm / 410mm guns, I am going to get my AP shells bounced.  But if I aim for the red section, the base of the superstructure, you will get get some Pens.

 

I just had a Co-op game using Champagne where I ended up brawling and tanking 2 Battleships.  I died eventually but I got some good work in.  I never played her that game as she was designed to.  I brawled with her like I would my other BBs.  I don't advise playing Champagne like that in PVP though.  But in PVE, you can get away with all kinds of weird, crazy things.

20201108_124500_PFSB528-Champagne_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

You will also see in that replay how I used angling to tank damage, and you'll see problem where one of the BBs were in a position where I couldn't safely angle against it and protect my bow while doing the same to the other.

Spoiler

 

[GrayPanther2018]

3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

@GrayPanther2018

Something I forgot to mention is what you can do with Battleship AP against another angled Battleship.  Shooting AP against the hull, especially if you can't Overmatch, is futile as you're going to get bounced.  Shoot at the base of the Superstructure instead.

You will not get Citadel hits with your AP, you will get some Overpens.  But a good well placed AP salvo there can get you several Penetration hits, and that's good damage.  You can do this with all your Battleships against another BB trying to angle against you.

 

 

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Thanks,  I  do that some especially against the Bismarck. I disable turrets too by aiming higher even works when they are straight on.

[WM1957]

On 10/22/2020 at 8:52 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Champagne, as with Slava, has really, really High Penetration for her AP shells.  Below is an Artillery Chart showing the AP Penetration values for Champagne, Richelieu, Izumo, Musashi.  Champagne has better Penetration at range than Musashi and her 460mm shells.  Izumo's 410mm AP is no slouch, Champagne has stronger Pen than hers.

If you're fighting at closer and closer ranges, especially engaging Cruiser targets, you're going to Overpen like mad.  Slava, Champagne got very high AP Penetration so that they can Pen and Citadel stuff at long range, which was what WG designed them for.

 

Try to fight with distance and see how it goes.

 

How about firing HE are cruisers rather than AP?

[Uncle_Lou]

6 hours ago, WM1957 said:

How about firing HE are cruisers rather than AP?

Not sure why you would want to fire Champagne's HE at cruisers instead of AP, as 406mm HE won't cit any cruisers that I can think of; though I suppose a 0.33 HE pen is better than an AP overpen.  The only other time it might be an advantage is if it is an extremely lightly armored CL like a Smol or Mino but even then at the ranges Champagne should be fighting at I would think that downward trajectory of the shells would still have a pretty good chance at finding citadels.  If they are angled a bit, so much the better as the shells will have a better chance to arm rather than overpen. 

[HazeGrayUnderway]

7 hours ago, WM1957 said:

How about firing HE are cruisers rather than AP?

Against Cruisers?  Even with Champagne's super-high pen, I always use AP against Cruisers.  That's how you get AP Citadel Home Runs.  HE will never give you those big, fancy numbers.  You most especially want AP when you know you can Overmatch the Cruiser's bow that's charging straight at you.  You'll get Pens and Citadel hits.  Hitting a Cruiser coming right at you will get you a bunch of Pens at the least if you can hit.  Hitting a Cruiser straight on like that and not perpendicular will let your AP shells arm inside.