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Tzarevitch

How are people making the KM DDs work?

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I'm finally getting around to going up the German DD tree and I am wondering what other people think of them. I'm up to Z-23 and my part I can't say I find them that impressive. I wouldn't call them bad, but they feel very unimpressive.

Pros: 

* Heavy hitting guns - The shells seem to hit decently hard and the gun ballistics aren't bad. They are no Soviet railgun or French depleted-uranium rounds, but they are better than the USN lollipop shells. 

* High hp. 

* hydro - It's very, very nice. No complaints on this one. 

* Very useable torpedoes. They reload fast and have good range. Not much to dislike on these so far. 

Cons: 

* Guns aren't comfortable to use. Guns hit fairly hard but the traverse is slow. You can easily out-turn and sometimes outrun your own gun traverse.  Rate of fire is also quite slow. It feels like the French, but without the reload booster or the stupendous shells to paper over the flaws. I don't particularly like these. It's hard to out-trade another DD is you have to maneuver at all. Also the gun arcs are abysmal on all of them up to Z-23 so far. Moderate angling easily masks a gun or two and with the slow reload that costs you a lot of firepower. 

* Fat, fat DD. They feel big like the French but don't have the high speed to throw their heft around well. Size plus middling speed for a DD makes them feel slow and fat. Detection isn't good either. A lot of DDs out detect you and you don't have the speed to close the gap. Agility isn't terrible for a fat DD (it's certainly better than the Soviets) but it isn't great either. 

* Dreadful Smoke. The hydro is really nice but I feel like they made the German DDs pay for it with dreadful smoke. It doesn't last long and it doesn't recycle fast either. It really can't cover allies well. It barely covers you even if you expand it as far as you can, and it is easily saturated by torp DDs. I feel like I have to use the hydro just to be certain I'm not being torped in my smoke. 

 

They aren't unmanageable, but overall they don't feel like they do anything that other DDs can't do better.  I like the USN, the UK, and the French DDs and can use them decently. I got both the IJN lines to work passably. The KM DDs are stumping me as to what to do with them. The torpedoes are very friendly to use with decent speed, punch, arcs and reload but that's the only system they have so far that I can say I like and works well. The hydro is really nice, but it feels like they paid too much to get it in the form of poor detection and lousy smoke. I thought that I could use the hydro to chase other DDs into their smoke using my smoke as a cover to get there, but what I found so far is German smoke doesn't last long enough and their detection isn't low enough to reliably cover the detection gap. If the other DD is an agile one and narrows his profile and withdraws or weaves around a lot you don't have the gun arcs or traverse to keep up with him while also closing the distance.  What is everyone else's experience with these? I will happily take suggestions on what I am doing wrong with them. 

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The HE on them has 1/4 pen. This makes them kinda OP as they get full fire chance and good pen, something no other dd gets, with a halfway exception of the ijn 100mm line. 

Use the guns, torps are just a bonus

Edited by bckstb_ferlyfe

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2 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

How are people making the KM DDs work?

By Tzarevitch,

I think several of the German DD's are interesting.
Some of the low-tier DD's have interesting mounting points and firing-arcs for their torpedo launchers.
The forward-launching arcs are fun and allow for variations in how one approaches a targeted ship.

The middle-to-higher-tiered DD's are more "normal" and have the characteristics you described as trends in their gun potency, turret-rotation-rates, hull detection distances and torpedo performances.
Hull module upgrades and Captain's Skills can offer some minor improvements to specific ship designs, but as you pointed out, they're out-spotted by many competitors.

My tech-tree research unlocked the Tier-7 Leberecht Maass, today.  And I've been playing it along with the Tier-5 and Tier-6 DD's today as part of the Anchorage Dockyard grind.

I think they're a bit challenging, and that learning to play them well is part of the fun.

Over-powered?  No.
Unbalanced?  No.
Interesting?  Yes.
Fun?  Yes.

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10 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

I'm finally getting around to going up the German DD tree and I am wondering what other people think of them. I'm up to Z-23 and my part I can't say I find them that impressive. I wouldn't call them bad, but they feel very unimpressive.

Pros: 

* Heavy hitting guns - The shells seem to hit decently hard and the gun ballistics aren't bad. They are no Soviet railgun or French depleted-uranium rounds, but they are better than the USN lollipop shells. 

* High hp. 

* hydro - It's very, very nice. No complaints on this one. 

* Very useable torpedoes. They reload fast and have good range. Not much to dislike on these so far. 

Cons: 

* Guns aren't comfortable to use. Guns hit fairly hard but the traverse is slow. You can easily out-turn and sometimes outrun your own gun traverse.  Rate of fire is also quite slow. It feels like the French, but without the reload booster or the stupendous shells to paper over the flaws. I don't particularly like these. It's hard to out-trade another DD is you have to maneuver at all. Also the gun arcs are abysmal on all of them up to Z-23 so far. Moderate angling easily masks a gun or two and with the slow reload that costs you a lot of firepower. 

* Fat, fat DD. They feel big like the French but don't have the high speed to throw their heft around well. Size plus middling speed for a DD makes them feel slow and fat. Detection isn't good either. A lot of DDs out detect you and you don't have the speed to close the gap. Agility isn't terrible for a fat DD (it's certainly better than the Soviets) but it isn't great either. 

* Dreadful Smoke. The hydro is really nice but I feel like they made the German DDs pay for it with dreadful smoke. It doesn't last long and it doesn't recycle fast either. It really can't cover allies well. It barely covers you even if you expand it as far as you can, and it is easily saturated by torp DDs. I feel like I have to use the hydro just to be certain I'm not being torped in my smoke. 

 

They aren't unmanageable, but overall they don't feel like they do anything that other DDs can't do better.  I like the USN, the UK, and the French DDs and can use them decently. I got both the IJN lines to work passably. The KM DDs are stumping me as to what to do with them. The torpedoes are very friendly to use with decent speed, punch, arcs and reload but that's the only system they have so far that I can say I like and works well. The hydro is really nice, but it feels like they paid too much to get it in the form of poor detection and lousy smoke. I thought that I could use the hydro to chase other DDs into their smoke using my smoke as a cover to get there, but what I found so far is German smoke doesn't last long enough and their detection isn't low enough to reliably cover the detection gap. If the other DD is an agile one and narrows his profile and withdraws or weaves around a lot you don't have the gun arcs or traverse to keep up with him while also closing the distance.  What is everyone else's experience with these? I will happily take suggestions on what I am doing wrong with them. 

Hello captain, yes you pay dearly for the hydro. You're only a DD killer if dds sit in smoke or get caught in yours and you hydro...you don't have the DPM or turret traverse in a straight up knife fight. I have Z-39,Z-35,Z-52 videos and explaining how I use the hydro to dominate caps and create kills , your guns have 1/4 he pen so good at damaging larger ships...my YouTube channel is Meta_Man2002 please subscribe if you find the videos helpful...happy hunting captain:cap_rambo:

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12 minutes ago, Meta_Man said:

Hello captain, yes you pay dearly for the hydro. You're only a DD killer if dds sit in smoke or get caught in yours and you hydro...you don't have the DPM or turret traverse in a straight up knife fight. I have Z-39,Z-35,Z-52 videos and explaining how I use the hydro to dominate caps and create kills , your guns have 1/4 he pen so good at damaging larger ships...my YouTube channel is Meta_Man2002 please subscribe if you find the videos helpful...happy hunting captain:cap_rambo:

Ty sir. I subscribed and I am watching them. :)

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6 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Ty sir. I subscribed and I am watching them. :)

Thanks, I love all the nations, I like figuring out how to exploit there advantages and hiding their weaknesses.....when you add radio location to hydro ,  Germans become pretty powerful.. Have fun captain

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1 hour ago, Tzarevitch said:

I'm finally getting around to going up the German DD tree and I am wondering what other people think of them. 

23 is good. The 46 and 52 are fantastic. The 46 has two rear turrets like the cruisers Roon, kburg, and nburg. I set up to kite and I had 2/3 of guns on target. Both use 128 mm gun. Better dpm and much faster turrets. Watch MetaMan’s videos. They are great dds when you learn to use their tools. 

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2 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

 

As I'm sure you are aware...EM is a must skill for them (after LS of course for 2 point skills)...you still outrun your guns w/it but w/out it you can out walk your guns :-0

When you get to T10 (Z-52) you get just short of 6km of hydro which is only a km (+ a little) shorter than the Blacks radar...but lasts much longer...very OP. But even now your hydro range is longer than any cruiser other than the KMs.

BTW...your AP is pretty awesome too so don't be afraid to switch if a cruiser gives you open broadsides...you can switch back when they figure out their mistake & angle again...if there's anything left of them.

Never thought of using radio location w/them @Meta_Man...duh... that's brilliant...knowing where their DD is instead of wasting a hydro on a whim :Smile_facepalm: (just never thought RL was worth the 4 points actually...but as you don't need IFHE...might as well).

 

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos
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32 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

As I'm sure you are aware...EM is a must skill for them...you still outrun your guns w/it but w/out it you can out walk your guns :-0

I would caution against this simply because you want your first 2 point skill to be Last Stand. I found that Main Battery Modification 2 accomplishes this but with less of a compromise to your mobility :cap_rambo:

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17 minutes ago, FullMetal_Inferno said:

I would caution against this simply because you want your first 2 point skill to be Last Stand. I found that Main Battery Modification 2 accomplishes this but with less of a compromise to your mobility :cap_rambo:

Edited...assuming by T8 he had 12 points already but clarified for others that may read it.

Nice catch...Thanx...hate to stear people wrong.

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From what I remember the German DDs are the original ambush ships before the French and their speed boost came along. Speed boost French are also funny since the German DDs were the ones who got hyper drives installed for their trailer. Did the French DDs ever get a trailer? Anyways I remember the idea of the German DDs was akin to the DD hunting cruisers, where you use the land masses and cover to mask your approach before hitting the target with a drive by. 

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8 hours ago, bckstb_ferlyfe said:

Use the guns, torps are just a bonus

Interesting. I started playing them like that, and would regularly get firmly spanked. And that was even before French DDs were added to the game. 

In German DDs, I have found more more success using them as a torp boat with guns rather than as a gunboat with torps.

And the hydro gives you the situational opportunity to push a cap against a torp DD from time to time. To me, the guns feel weak (particularly reload) and the smokes are awful - buffing the smoke to IJN levels would be welcome. 

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4 hours ago, UltimateNewbie said:

Interesting. I started playing them like that, and would regularly get firmly spanked. And that was even before French DDs were added to the game. 

In German DDs, I have found more more success using them as a torp boat with guns rather than as a gunboat with torps.

And the hydro gives you the situational opportunity to push a cap against a torp DD from time to time. To me, the guns feel weak (particularly reload) and the smokes are awful - buffing the smoke to IJN levels would be welcome. 

This is what I've found so far as well. I've done much better with them as torp boats so far. The torps are quite nice and useable for me, much more so than the guns. I forgot to look at the detection numbers but people seem to have difficulty picking them up. The guns haven't worked out well for me so far against other DDs. 

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5 hours ago, UltimateNewbie said:

In German DDs, I have found more more success using them as a torp boat with guns rather than as a gunboat with torps.

This is also my experience.

 

What I like about them is they are very balanced ships, they have tools to deal with any kind of situation and enemy they face. I feel they are more oriented to hunt BBs and cruisers than to fight DD vs DD actions. I use the smoke mostly on defense unless I know there are no more DD threats around.

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1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

This is also my experience.

 

What I like about them is they are very balanced ships, they have tools to deal with any kind of situation and enemy they face. I feel they are more oriented to hunt BBs and cruisers than to fight DD vs DD actions. I use the smoke mostly on defense unless I know there are no more DD threats around.

That's been mine as well. My best success has been avoiding gunboat DDs and radar cruisers, taking caps, and firing mostly on BBs with guns and torps. Honestly, the KM DDs surprised me with how effective their torps are. They are a joy to use. The other side benefit I found is using it as a torp boat is cheaper on captain skills. 

The thing that surprised me just as much, and not in a good way, was how not-so-great the guns are. They look good on paper but the gun handling is decidedly on the poorer side for DDs. I figured they would handle close to the French, which I love, but I was very, very wrong. I am now realizing you have to take skills to fix this, and that takes from other skills they really need. The guns work fine against larger ships like BBs, but not nearly so well against gunboats. 

I also thought the KM weak smoke wouldn't be too bad but I was very wrong on that too. I did not realize how MUCH less smoke you can make in the first place compared to the USN and how short it's duration is. 

Edited by Tzarevitch
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11 hours ago, C14Alpha said:

Drop the 150s on the Z-23 for 12% HE fire chance and a real AP surprise to broadside cruisers.

I hadn't picked these up yet. How manageable is the reload vs other targets? It seemed slow from the stats. 

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13 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

As I'm sure you are aware...EM is a must skill for them (after LS of course for 2 point skills)...you still outrun your guns w/it but w/out it you can out walk your guns :-0

When you get to T10 (Z-52) you get just short of 6km of hydro which is only a km (+ a little) shorter than the Blacks radar...but lasts much longer...very OP. But even now your hydro range is longer than any cruiser other than the KMs.

BTW...your AP is pretty awesome too so don't be afraid to switch if a cruiser gives you open broadsides...you can switch back when they figure out their mistake & angle again...if there's anything left of them.

Never thought of using radio location w/them @Meta_Man...duh... that's brilliant...knowing where their DD is instead of wasting a hydro on a whim :Smile_facepalm: (just never thought RL was worth the 4 points actually...but as you don't need IFHE...might as well).

 

I can definitely see the value in RPF from @Meta_Man's video. It helps address the poor detection and slow gun traverse by giving you an idea where the threat is, but it is so hard to afford it. You are basically on at 14-16 points before you can afford it, depending on whether you improve the gun traverse first. 

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37 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

I can definitely see the value in RPF from @Meta_Man's video. It helps address the poor detection and slow gun traverse by giving you an idea where the threat is, but it is so hard to afford it. You are basically on at 14-16 points before you can afford it, depending on whether you improve the gun traverse first. 

In my opinion the French and the German are definitely captain point hungry... You're exactly right about what I use it for...it helps me get turrets in the baddies direction..and helps me hunt them down...

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It used to be worse for German Destroyers :Smile_trollface:

When they were in testing, a common complaint by testers was the bad smoke and lack of Stealth Fire that the USN & IJN DDs had.

 

WG's answer?

When German DDs were about to go Live, WG quickly stuffed in a sudden bomb that Stealth Fire was being removed from the game.

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My experience is that they're very positioning dependent. Your concealment isn't great enough to hunt other dds, your health isn't enough to brawl with cruisers, your smoke isn't good enough to hide from reds, and your guns aren't good enough to out-DPM much of anyone.

But situationally, you can bully people really well. A dd in smoke is easy to hydro and blap. A wounded dd (particularly IJN) is easy to chase down and finish off. You can kite advancing BBs well with the fast torp reload and good enough concealment/speed. You're a great screener for radar cruisers or KMS style brawler bbs. And the punchy guns can really threaten enemy cruisers engaged with your teammates.

I've had more success driving them like CLs - something like a Fiji. You _can_ cap and you _can_ duel dds, but you're better off baiting a bb into charging you or supplementing teammates with some smoke fire. Except for the z46. The z46 drives more like an IJN dd. Lots of concealment and torps, guns to set fires or as a last resort.

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German DDs are a case of extremes.

AP does a ton of damage but won't regular pen DDs unless they angle a little. They also lose a good deal of pen at range, a trait common to all German ships. Don't expect to citadel cruisers with these unless you're close enough 

HE does little damage but can pen everything. Cruisers, BBs, everything can fall prey to these guns ... just very slowly, lol.

Their torps are reasonably fast and reload quickly ... but their damage output is kinda sh*t. This is mostly due to the fact that they are essentially the same torps from like tier 6 onwards, with only a slight range increase at each tier. So these torps and reload on T-61 are murderous, but on Z-52, they just tickle. I personally wouldn't spec for torps on Z-52.

Sluggish and poor concealment, but on Z-52 at least, her Hydro essentially matches her concealment, so if you get hard spotted and can't see what's spotting you, hit that Hydro button and watch that Shima panic when you follow that up with a smoke cloud of your own. To compensate, your smokes really suck. Oh, and your HE damage sucks and you might actually lose a gunfight against a Shima, lol

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1 hour ago, Tzarevitch said:

I hadn't picked these up yet. How manageable is the reload vs other targets? It seemed slow from the stats. 

I really didn’t like the 150s; they felt like a noob trap to me - sure, you could AP cit random broadside cruisers from time to time, but frankly it was highly situational and you had to survive their DDs first, so I found the 128s on the whole better. 

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