Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Sabot_100

Is BB SAP going to change the meta?

24 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,216
[CVA16]
Members
5,650 posts
17,436 battles

Not going to jump on the "WG is ruining the game...again!" bandwagon but will BB SAP at least change up how (or if) other ships in the game play?  

The light to medium armored ships obviously take a hit. Ships that worry more about fires should do better. 

Still a work in progress as far as I can tell. WG can still play with angles and such but a lot of armor schemes might  become irrelevant. Plus ships that count on overpens will face BBs that rarely have AP loaded. 

Edited by Sabot_100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
189
[WW2]
Members
468 posts
8,002 battles

Well they have already said they are going to be pretty short range. I've played Italian cruisers pretty extensively and can tell you sap is great at first but with damage saturation it can be hard when a bb is less than 25% plus no fires or cits. Maybe the bbs sap will cit we will see. Also I'm worried they will have Roma dispersion so that will be something too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
958
[HC]
[HC]
Beta Testers
3,291 posts
12,974 battles
5 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Not going to jump on the "WG is ruining the game...again!" bandwagon but will BB SAP at least change up how (or if) other ships in the game play?  

The light to medium armored ships obviously take a hit. Ships that worry more about fires should do better. 

Still a work in progress as far as I can tell. WG can still play with angles and such but a lot of armor schemes might  become irrelevant. Plus ships that count on overpens will face BBs that rarely have AP loaded. 

Actually, other than possibly changing how some players actually play their battleships, I don't see a big change. It's not like SAP isn't going to fill the same niche for Italian Battleships that HE does.

The battleship players that will actually have to change are going to be the mindless HE spamming ones that will suddenly find a battleship line that has no HE. They'll have to shoot something other than HE. If they're lucky, they'll figure out what the "1" and "2" keys do, and broaden their ammunition choices.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
828
[KIA-T]
Members
2,237 posts
9,838 battles
3 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

mindless HE spamming ones that will suddenly find a battleship line that has no HE.

I can assure you.

Those "players" will not move from the RN/MN BBs that do it so well for this reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
152
[WOLFB]
Members
438 posts
8,190 battles

Well, i remember a few months back, while grinding out my Izumo, i came across the old testbed Littorio with sap and smoke on the enemy team in a battle.

I encounter the guy in the middle of the map, i angle in on him as he's moving up dark in his crawling smoke, he shoots my sharply angled izumo (i couldn't use my third turret just the two front ones), and on the angled bow he slams me for 20k sap damage. it was eye opening that's for sure.

 

My theory is that they'll be great against targets early game but once damage saturation comes along late game it's going to be harder to do consistent damage with SAP (it's still going to hurt somewhat but you get my point).

Regardless their burst damage potential is going to be crazy, that is, assuming dispersion actually hits anything (or the SAP doesn't bounce) considering the stats we've seen so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,216
[CVA16]
Members
5,650 posts
17,436 battles
16 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

It's not like SAP isn't going to fill the same niche for Italian Battleships that HE does.

It is different. I've found cruiser SAP better for killing DDs than HE. Generally more reliable tha AP or HE vs cruiser that won't keep showing you their flat broadside.

BB sap can pen a lot of armor so a lot of cruisers (and BB upper belts, decks and superstructures) that might shatter an HE round will end up taking damage. Lots of SAP citadels become possible. For me anyway, HE citadels are pretty rare.

Edited by Sabot_100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
958
[HC]
[HC]
Beta Testers
3,291 posts
12,974 battles
1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

It is different. I've found cruiser SAP better for killing DDs than HE. Generally more reliable tha AP or HE vs cruiser that won't keep showing you their flat broadside.

BB sap can pen a lot of armor so a lot of cruisers (and BB upper belts, decks and superstructures) that might shatter an HE round will end up taking damage. Lots of SAP citadels become possible. For me anyway, HE citadels are pretty rare.

But, I don't see how it's gonna be that big of a change, targets are still going to to be betting if a ship is shooting AP, or something else. Going broadside to a battleship is still going to hurt. For DD's and lighter ships, it doesn't really matter if it's SAP or HE, properly used, it's gonna hurt when it connects. You're still going to be aiming at certain areas on some ships, maybe different areas, but it's not that big a change. It's not like it's a guided round or something crazy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,216
[CVA16]
Members
5,650 posts
17,436 battles
25 minutes ago, SgtBeltfed said:

it doesn't really matter if it's SAP or HE, properly used, it's gonna hurt when it connects.

For me anyway, SAP is much easier to use and get good damage and that is with cruiser sized shells. BB SAP will pen about everything except the belts and turrets of BBs and some CAs because the pen is so much higher than HE.  Basically make "proper use" a no brainer.

It may end up being not that big a deal but it looks like lightly armored ship could be screwed. Looking for those better at the math to say definitively.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,209
[SALVO]
Members
5,270 posts
4,510 battles

It won't have as bigger impact as you think, it will be only one more battleship between the full roster of current available battleships. Once the introduction event is over,  their numbers will hardly be enough to make significant impact. In CB BB slots are limited, so even less impact there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,339
[KWF]
Members
4,915 posts
6,598 battles

I wouldn't worry that much with the accuracy the ships are planned to get. And I can tell from my experience in Roma that any results will be up to RNG to decide. High velocity BB shells with below average BB sigma and accuracy characteristics should make for a pretty annoying experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,216
[CVA16]
Members
5,650 posts
17,436 battles
23 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

I wouldn't worry that much with the accuracy the ships are planned to get. And I can tell from my experience in Roma that any results will be up to RNG to decide. High velocity BB shells with below average BB sigma and accuracy characteristics should make for a pretty annoying experience.

Don't have one and I notice I don't see them often, but I thought one of the main complaints was the overpens. SAP would alleviate some of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,103
[FOXEH]
Banned
14,364 posts
19,983 battles

I'm thinking it will be rough on cruisers, especially fragile ones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,901
[SYN]
Members
15,874 posts
12,803 battles
2 hours ago, Saidalphon said:

Izumo... on the angled bow he slams me for 20k sap damage. it was eye opening that's for sure.

You can do this with regular >380mm AP against all T8+ BBs, but it is easier against T9/10 BBs.

In fact, you don't shoot the bow, because SAP will still ricochet off of 32mm plating.

heavily angled BB superstructure, especially at T9/10, is very easy to score 20k dmg on.
This is obviously tied with the caveat that the superstructure needs to not be saturated first and any subsequent shots at the superstructure will not yield as significant results.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,351
[ALL41]
Beta Testers
2,273 posts
9,860 battles
2 hours ago, Akeno017 said:

I can assure you.

Those "players" will not move from the RN/MN BBs that do it so well for this reason.

Hardly. The reason RN BBs are used is because the HE and fire mechanics are poorly implemented and are for all purposes, a dev-implemented and dev-allowed exploit.

Go fire SAP at a Kremlin. See how that goes. Now fire HE (any HE not just british) and see how that goes.

SAP can do good damage but HE will outpace it just from the fire damage that is added. HE doesn't care about angles or armor thickness to inflict fires.

 

The italian BB's most likely will see their SAP dealing citadel-like damage upon other BB's at nearly every shot if said shots are not fired at citadel areas but rather the more thinly armored areas. It'd be something like Yamato finding itself at close range with a german T10 BB... you won't citadel it so you aim for the upper side armor and land multiple pens that may add up to 40k damage if RNG permits.

Most likely the BB SAP will have overpen and will have more ricochet angles.

Basically if you are an italian BB vs another BB you will want to shoot the same spots the Venezia aims for on T10 BBs. Superstructure, upper side armor and bow/aft of most other BBs. Vs cruisers the italian BB will likely be able to citadel the more thinly armored ones like CL's ... Its arming fuse will be longer than the italian cruisers so spaced armor or torp bulges may not protect cruisers it shoots and it will wreck any heavy cruiser that it can get a shot on its upper side armor when broadside.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,612
[-ARP-]
[-ARP-]
Members
1,236 posts
19,449 battles

No, because the T10 has been sabotaged so it only lands 1-2 shells with a long reload. 

Imagine a ship with worse dispersion than new mexico but at T10 with a massive reload time.

SAP Battleships have been smothered in the crib

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
136
[LSNB]
Members
192 posts
6,038 battles

Unless they nerf the SAP angles like they did on the Paolo Emilio, they will boost USN and KM cruiser in the meta, when they're already quite strong, while absolutely screwing over other cruisers. 

See, non PE SAP has bounce angles of 70-80 degrees. 

So it cannot bounce unless you have a 20 degree angle, and even then it's not guarunteed until 10 degrees. 

This is fine on a cruiser. Even when the tiers are weird enough that DDs get uber matched, their profile is so slim that only one or two hits anyways, and the alpha isn't that high at those weird mid tiers. 

But with BB SAP? 

381mm guns overmatch 25mm. So cruisers can't bow tank or overmatch just brings them through. 

But the bounce angles mean that if they try to angle, well, the enhanced angles means they pen anyway. If they angle steeply enough to bounce, then their bow is very exposed and the shells overmatch anyways. It's a catch 22.

Of course, this doesn't harm the KM or USN CAs, but it's not like they're in a bad spot. 

Meanwhile, Zao and Henri are just getting shafted, Venezia suffers, etc etc.

And that's not even going into how hard CLs are going to get boned. 

Edited by dagger1013

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,463
[KIA-C]
Members
3,551 posts
15,600 battles

BB SAP will overpen DD so that's that.

 

But SAP as a ammunition is just a better HE. While the accuracy might not be it's strenght you still have 16 SAP flying in the air with something that has like 14050 alpha/shell. Montana AP deals 13500 damage. Italian BB SAP is basically improved HE that deals more penetration damage than Montana AP and has an easier time to pen stuff than Montana while throwing 16 of them.

 

Also I've heard they actually have good armour so they're not easily taken down. Anyway it's too soon to talk about changing the meta but they're definitely not weak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,211
[WOLF3]
Members
28,187 posts
24,550 battles
9 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

Hardly. The reason RN BBs are used is because the HE and fire mechanics are poorly implemented and are for all purposes, a dev-implemented and dev-allowed exploit.

Go fire SAP at a Kremlin. See how that goes. Now fire HE (any HE not just british) and see how that goes.

SAP can do good damage but HE will outpace it just from the fire damage that is added. HE doesn't care about angles or armor thickness to inflict fires.

 

The italian BB's most likely will see their SAP dealing citadel-like damage upon other BB's at nearly every shot if said shots are not fired at citadel areas but rather the more thinly armored areas. It'd be something like Yamato finding itself at close range with a german T10 BB... you won't citadel it so you aim for the upper side armor and land multiple pens that may add up to 40k damage if RNG permits.

Most likely the BB SAP will have overpen and will have more ricochet angles.

Basically if you are an italian BB vs another BB you will want to shoot the same spots the Venezia aims for on T10 BBs. Superstructure, upper side armor and bow/aft of most other BBs. Vs cruisers the italian BB will likely be able to citadel the more thinly armored ones like CL's ... Its arming fuse will be longer than the italian cruisers so spaced armor or torp bulges may not protect cruisers it shoots and it will wreck any heavy cruiser that it can get a shot on its upper side armor when broadside.

 

Fire Damage can be healed back 100% by Repair Party.

"Not all damage can be repaired. Health points (HP) lost to Fire, Flooding, and Ramming damage are completely restorable. The restorable amounts of ship damage due to warheads and the amount of damage to the citadel varies by ship."

 

Repair Party can only heal back a given % of Penetration Damage (which is what SAP does, it pens and does damage or it doesn't, no Overpens like AP), depending on the ship.  50% is typical but there are deviations.

 

The thing with SAP compared to HE is that SAP front loads all its damage.  Another thing with HE + Fires is that it's unreliable.  The Fires you stick can be unreliable one match to another.

 

I do agree that in an SAP Battleship vs BB engagement, placement of SAP shells will likely be the same as playing an Italian SAP Cruiser.  You're not going to Overmatch with 381mm SAP against higher tier Battleships, not even 27mm USN / German Cruiser Bows in High Tier.  Long ago I developed the habit even with BBs to hammer the superstructure of another angled Battleship with AP shells to good effect.  You'll get some AP Penetration, instead of bouncing off Battleship deck and bow armor.  However, the AP will still have some Overpens.  I'd use Battleship SAP the same way.  If the salvo works out good in RNG / Dispersion, that's going to hurt the other Battleship real bad.

 

Heavy Cruisers will be better off withstanding ITA Battleship SAP because of heavier armor, even on the sides the higher in tier you go.  The Cruiser type that will feel ITA BB SAP the most are Light Cruisers.  They're going to get Overmatched to hell and back and eating that SAP Pen damage.  ITA Cruiser SAP already can do a terrible number on RNCLs, now picture ITA Battleship SAP with Overmatch benefits against their lighter armor that's even thinner than what's typical for CLs their tier.

:Smile_hiding:

 

I've theorized a lot about the possibilities of Battleship SAP... With Overmatch it removes a key issue of Cruiser SAP had:  Getting bounced easily.

It sounds like a real good deal to have Battleship SAP, but the real thing to watch for is how WG is going to make sure it doesn't run wild.

======

Anyways, for those curious, here's the initial WG Devblog announcement of the ITA BB Line.

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/81

There's already been changes since then.

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/85 Concealment range nerfs except for the Tier IX.

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/87  Exhaust Smoke Generator removed from Tier VI & VII and:

Italian battleship Cristoforo Colombo, Tier X:

Horizontal firing angles on both sides of the aft-end turrets were reduced by 10 degrees;

Sigma parameter was reduced from 1.6 to 1.5

Deck plating thickness reduced from 55 to 50 mm.

=====

Note that none of the ITA Tech Tree SAP Battleships are armed larger than 381mm.  381 is the limit.  If they had 406mm, that'd have even better Overmatch characteristics, and I think WG knew it would be devastating, hence capping them off at 381mm.  It wouldn't surprise me if WG releases a Premium 406mm armed SAP Italian Battleship, but I bet she will pay dearly for that 406mm SAP Overmatching.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,533
[PSA]
Members
5,111 posts
3,732 battles

I suspect Italian dispersion will be so bad, their SAP rounds won't really impact the meta much. Or their AP rounds for that matter, lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,211
[WOLF3]
Members
28,187 posts
24,550 battles
5 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

I suspect Italian dispersion will be so bad, their SAP rounds won't really impact the meta much. Or their AP rounds for that matter, lol.

There's all kinds of ways to reign them in if SAP becomes too good.

- Nerf SAP shell characteristics themselves.

- Gun reload.

- Dispersion pattern.

- Gun range.

- Sigma levels.

- Protection of the ITA BB itself, i.e. withstand less damage, easier to punish, etc.

- Etc.  Even a combination of several things.

 

We have had ships in the past with their pending arrival and predictions of doom.  I still remember the DOOOOOMMM!!!! threads where some BB players threatened the game would end and they'd leave in protest if Asashio arrived.

Asashio arrived, very dangerous in her own ways, but she also had her own issues.  She never disrupted the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,351
[ALL41]
Beta Testers
2,273 posts
9,860 battles
9 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Fire Damage can be healed back 100% by Repair Party.

"Not all damage can be repaired. Health points (HP) lost to Fire, Flooding, and Ramming damage are completely restorable. The restorable amounts of ship damage due to warheads and the amount of damage to the citadel varies by ship."

 

Repair Party can only heal back a given % of Penetration Damage (which is what SAP does, it pens and does damage or it doesn't, no Overpens like AP), depending on the ship.  50% is typical but there are deviations.

 

The thing with SAP compared to HE is that SAP front loads all its damage.  Another thing with HE + Fires is that it's unreliable.  The Fires you stick can be unreliable one match to another.

 

 

Yes but one repair does not heal the damage done by a single fire. You can easily verify this by starting repair the moment a single fire hits you. It won't repair 100% of the damage. So if you have to use a SECOND repair to heal fire damage that works against you. That 100% is dissembling fake news ;)

My point was, HE doesn't care at all about armor and fires can be set by shells that don't penetrate (which is moronic but that basically describes WG's mechanics). Ship is at an angle so that AP or even SAP will not do squat and HE would have a very hard time hitting the superstructure? Its ok, fire HE anyway. If a fire sticks you will inflict the damage the ship's angling will not allow you to do with AP or SAP.  Heck an HE shell hitting a BB turret does 0 damage but it can start a fire. Its DUMB.

SAP does not frontload the damage an HE hit+fire does. Sure, fire is not 100% chance but on british ships its got a damn high chance of doing it and any HE fired when aimed above the deckline has a high chance of hitting softer deck armor on most ships which it can penetrate and that's regardless of angle.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,351
[ALL41]
Beta Testers
2,273 posts
9,860 battles
13 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

We have had ships in the past with their pending arrival and predictions of doom.  I still remember the DOOOOOMMM!!!! threads where some BB players threatened the game would end and they'd leave in protest if Asashio arrived.

Asashio arrived, very dangerous in her own ways, but she also had her own issues.  She never disrupted the game.

Hilariously enough, Asashio torps are the only thing WG has come close to actually implementing into the game that matched IRL performance. Came close because those torps to be actual historically accurate Long Lance would not have 'Xtra-deepwater'  BB/CV only killing ability..they'd hit DDs and cruisers just the same.

All IJN cruisers and all IJN cruisers should be given 20km range, identical to asashio torp detection range but 45kn speed only (historical IJN long lance setting for long range).

 

But then again, Stalingrad and Kremlin and Moskva and Khabarovsk... all fantasy performaing ships even when in the drawing board in the 40's are in game and they DO disrupt the game significantly. Go figure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,211
[WOLF3]
Members
28,187 posts
24,550 battles
1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

Yes but one repair does not heal the damage done by a single fire. You can easily verify this by starting repair the moment a single fire hits you. It won't repair 100% of the damage. So if you have to use a SECOND repair to heal fire damage that works against you. That 100% is dissembling fake news ;)

My point was, HE doesn't care at all about armor and fires can be set by shells that don't penetrate (which is moronic but that basically describes WG's mechanics). Ship is at an angle so that AP or even SAP will not do squat and HE would have a very hard time hitting the superstructure? Its ok, fire HE anyway. If a fire sticks you will inflict the damage the ship's angling will not allow you to do with AP or SAP.  Heck an HE shell hitting a BB turret does 0 damage but it can start a fire. Its DUMB.

SAP does not frontload the damage an HE hit+fire does. Sure, fire is not 100% chance but on british ships its got a damn high chance of doing it and any HE fired when aimed above the deckline has a high chance of hitting softer deck armor on most ships which it can penetrate and that's regardless of angle.  

Your Repair Party isn't healing everything back because it's also dealing with the Penetration damage.  The Fire Damage?  That's 100%.

 

HE has lower alpha and the Fires are RNG.  Not only that, Repair Party heals back 100% Fire Damage.

HE does not front load the damage.  It can be put out with DCP;  It's chances to cause Fires can be reduced;  The number of Fires you can get fluctuate.  I have had my Conqueror games where I'm lucky to get 2 Fires despite hammering ships with lots of hits.  Same thing with HE oriented Cruisers, Gunboats, etc.

 

AP gets the Killer AP Citadel Damage that puts targets down or cause heavy damage that not even Repair Party recovers much from.

 

SAP straddles weirdly the AP & HE shell world.  It Pens or in lucky, specific cases, can Citadel some very thinly protected ships.  Regardless, SAP has higher shell alpha than HE.  Hell, in ITA Cruiser cases, the SAP has practically the same shell damage as their AP.  On the WiP ITA BBs so far, the SAP has more damage than their AP.

SAP / AP Dmg values:

Tier VI 10.2k / 9.7k

Tier VII & VIII & X 14k / 12k

 

If HE + Fires were so fantastic Damage Dealers, Cruisers and Destroyer Gunboats would be Damage Dealing Leaders.  They're not.  Battleships are, and almost all of them are AP focused.  Even 152mm x15 armed Helena does less damage than the highly unreliable Gneisenau in the same tier.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×