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Destroyer_KuroshioKai

I was asked to do a GK video, here it is

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I pulled this game simply because it has glimpses of how to GK.  I frequently see this ship misplayed most commonly as people race into range to get their secondaries blazing ignoring that half the enemy team or more can farm the hell out of you, or I see them played at range most of the game, only yoloing after the point in time they could have won the game has passed.  I'll summarize the video since everyone gets annoyed at BBs doing both these things and not every one has time to watch the video.

I start out moving to my initial position, my target area is not in front of me, instead I am looking cross map at targets moving into position.  Since I intend to shoot AP as much as possible with the ship it makes the most sense to select targets showing as much broadside as possible.  My objective here is to being to control areas of the map by making areas of the map too dangerous to push into.  I help gun down a Petro that tried charging into a very aggressive island position giving my team an early advantage.

Between my shots I spend most of my time looking at the mini map for my next shot, new victims, and where and what the enemy might be up to.  As my team is finishing off the Petro, with me keeping my guns in that area in case the low HP ship reverses where only I can shoot them, I notice a Montana and second Petro are shoving hard into my flank catching a friendly Smolensk and sinking him.  I will need to deal with this next, but I dont want to fight a one on two if I can help it.  My solution is to go after the squishier Petro while placing an island eventually between me and the Montana protecting me while I chew up the Petro with my guns and secondaries.  The Montana, having lost his support begins to bail creating an opening for me to eliminate a DM that pushed aggressively through the middle of the map.  I take a bit more damage turning around to make this push.  

While I take a good bit of damage here, I feel eliminating the final radar is worth it as it opens the middle of the map up for my DDs to work on the cap.  Combined arms works.  I end the game going over a misplay I made thinking I heard flooding that opens me up to follow up fires.  Had I been a bit more cautious with my DCP I likely would have survived this battle.

I hope this video might help someone with the basics of BB play.  I dont profess to be a pro, particularly at longer range gunnery where the game compresses oddly in my mind, but I know enough to help guys get the basics down.  Please pick out my mistakes, it will make me a better player, and create more learning opportunities for everyone here.

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Well after finishing my UU upgrade grind last night, my instructional video would involve leaving it in port. 

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1 hour ago, Ducky_shot said:

Well after finishing my UU upgrade grind last night, my instructional video would involve leaving it in port. 

Kremlin really does cut into the brawling BB catagory heavily.

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Thanks for the video of a tinder block. GK has been blown up and complete trash now.  Like you said.  You really have to have map awareness and know when to push or when to play range only to miss a chance at turning the game around.  So its best decided are you going to play range or press on and burn.   The consumable was not worth the pain... still it kills the main battery range.  If you put concealment on it and bap at broadside ships it can be a fun ship.

All I remember I had very fun and good games pushing into and near islands.

And no way in heck would I use this in Ranked lol...

 

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1 hour ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

most commonly as people race into range to get their secondaries blazing

This is what co-op is for, and it is GLORIOUS there.

I don't pretend to know how to balance the use of main and secondary KM BB armament at high tier in PvP, which is why I considered it wise to stop at the Bismarck.

1 hour ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Combined arms works. 

Absolutely. Look after your destroyers and your destroyers will look after you. (Preaching to the choir insofar as you're concerned, Kuro, but it cannot be emphasized enough to non-DD-focused players.)

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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27 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Kremlin really does cut into the brawling BB catagory heavily.

Open water maps were awful and maps with good island cover that I could use to get better ranges and protect myself from some threats, it worked quite well. 

Now I get to finish the khabs UU.... 

Edited by Ducky_shot

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I got the GK recently...it was a very expensive way to obtain 25x Leviathan signals from a SC. I haven’t equipped it yet...after FDG...well...just not sure I even want to sail her. I spec’d out of Man Sec towards the end of my FDG grind. Just not worth having the vast majority of the time in my experience. Haven’t figured out how to build GK...my hope is that main gun and survivability focused yields a playable ship.

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1 hour ago, Mahrs said:

I got the GK recently...it was a very expensive way to obtain 25x Leviathan signals from a SC. I haven’t equipped it yet...after FDG...well...just not sure I even want to sail her. I spec’d out of Man Sec towards the end of my FDG grind. Just not worth having the vast majority of the time in my experience. Haven’t figured out how to build GK...my hope is that main gun and survivability focused yields a playable ship.

I play it with a modified secondary build specifically to help deal with some HE spam that will enviably will occur.  I find most of the time I play the ship I am able to work my way into secondary range and have about 1/3 my damage done by them.   https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSB110&modules=1111&upgrades=132121&commander=PCW001&skills=287392770&ar=100&flags=11875&consumables=1111&pos=0

A concealment tank build would work.  Concealment gets a GK a bit closer to that sweet spot, but you still need to take care not to get over exposed and focused down by HE spam.

1 hour ago, Ducky_shot said:

Open water maps were awful and maps with good island cover that I could use to get better ranges and protect myself from some threats, it worked quite well. 

Now I get to finish the khabs UU.... 

Thats the key.  If you can use islands you can dig in a lot sooner, if not you need time to kill a few of the spammers before grabbing the shovel.  I find GK the most fun BB because its a bit challenging to not get wrecked.

1 hour ago, Nachoo31 said:

Thanks for the video of a tinder block. GK has been blown up and complete trash now.  Like you said.  You really have to have map awareness and know when to push or when to play range only to miss a chance at turning the game around.  So its best decided are you going to play range or press on and burn.   The consumable was not worth the pain... still it kills the main battery range.  If you put concealment on it and bap at broadside ships it can be a fun ship.

All I remember I had very fun and good games pushing into and near islands.

And no way in heck would I use this in Ranked lol...

 

I think LU is only good for max secondary builds.  I still run reload for the most part because it shaves around a second off my MB reload, and that can give you some room to work when brawling other BBs as most have a bit longer reload.  Really you just need to time your aggression out.  The ship has a lot of HP and can revover a lot of HP since you usually dont get citadeled. Running a Reinhardt captain with improved JOAT really shaves down your DCP, repair cool downs as well as your hydro's.  I might consider this in the future for a tank build captain if I decide to double up a 19 point captain.

I dont think the ship lost tankiness, so much as Kremlin was inserted in the game and that thing is a bit too hard to kill.

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

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Much sadness from me through my first five matches.  The guns are...woeful.  On the bright side, I think 3.8 mil PD might be a new personal best.  Every game was over 1m, 2 over 2 and 2 over 3.  So, I give myself full marks for being shot at.  I give myself an "F" (or maybe a charity "D-") for doing damage and forcing my teams to carry me.

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2 hours ago, Mahrs said:

Much sadness from me through my first five matches.  The guns are...woeful.  On the bright side, I think 3.8 mil PD might be a new personal best.  Every game was over 1m, 2 over 2 and 2 over 3.  So, I give myself full marks for being shot at.  I give myself an "F" (or maybe a charity "D-") for doing damage and forcing my teams to carry me.

Which guns do you use?

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I still have the 406s on it... 

The 3.8 mil PD game on Ocean - https://replayswows.com/replay/109826#teams

My first match.  Yes, it's awful.  I finish a couple low HP cruisers after the match is already decided, but overall I added almost no value here. I am, sadly, back line almost the entire match because I have no idea where to take the damn ship.  That is down to me and my map knowledge largely. https://replayswows.com/replay/109828#teams

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12 hours ago, Mahrs said:

I still have the 406s on it... 

The 3.8 mil PD game on Ocean - https://replayswows.com/replay/109826#teams

My first match.  Yes, it's awful.  I finish a couple low HP cruisers after the match is already decided, but overall I added almost no value here. I am, sadly, back line almost the entire match because I have no idea where to take the damn ship.  That is down to me and my map knowledge largely. https://replayswows.com/replay/109828#teams

I prefer to run the 406s on mine.  You dont get any extra over match potential and I find the quicker reload gives me some options brawling slower reloading ships.

If you'd like a private replay analysis on these game hop on to my Discord and up load one of them in my replay analysis channels.  https://discord.gg/efFQFmW

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GK and the old "brawling ships" suffer from a paradox.

if i get too close,the enemy will farm me

if i play safe at range,my guns wont help me because of german dispersion and the concealment.

so all they have left is to find an opening to push and strike the enemy,pommern teached me that secondary guns are not good on german ships,they need better commander skills to survive the  HE spam or better secondary gun performance,because right now they are just there as fireworks.

the main problem of finding an opening is that you might see it but most of the time you are in no position to exploit it.

montana,yamato,conqueror,republique,they can play safe at range and it works very well for them because they are not "brawling" ships

kremlin meanwhile,is a new generation of brawling ship,able to shrug off HE spam and can shatter most HE shells easily while tanking a lot of AP,and the soviet dispersion is much better,they can play safe until an opening and they can be in position to exploit.

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Just in my GK grind. Feels like a totally new play style to me. 

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I didn't even research the 420s on the FDG.  I fitted them on the GK last night to mess with.  I know they don't grant an over match advantage, but I don't know what the difference in penetration is (if any).  I remember watching a test video some years back from a training room match where the 420s didn't seem to offer any meaningful advantage.  I don't know which I'll go with yet. 

Honestly...GK has an AWESOME ship's horn and the 420's gun sound (copied from Yamato?) is sweet...reason enough?

The shame of it all, for me, is that GK is already, after only 6 battles of poor to middling quality, in second place overall for average damage - it barely eclipses my Hindenburg and beats out FDG by 10k / match.  Hindy got some buffs while I was away, so my damage there is increasing and she is easier to play now (my PR in the ship dropped while I was away, a sure indicator)...but, still.  It's been said that BBs have got to put in the damage and I am inclined to agree...which means that right now I'm largely a liability and that's frustrating.

I think GK has a LOT of potential though, especially for someone like me.  I like to stay mobile - managing the maneuverability is tough, but the ability to show a broadside and eat heavy damage from normal pens rather than getting out right deleted is a pretty significant strength.  I just need to learn and adapt...definitely has a much different feel than FDG or Biz...or the USN ships. 

First place?  Oh, that's Georgia...turns out the functional secondaries on an agile BB with accurate guns and about 13km surface detection works out OK even for scrubs like me. WG's "bag-o-gimmicks" working OK here it seems, heh. 

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On 10/6/2020 at 7:36 AM, Mahrs said:

Much sadness from me through my first five matches.  The guns are...woeful.  On the bright side, I think 3.8 mil PD might be a new personal best.  Every game was over 1m, 2 over 2 and 2 over 3.  So, I give myself full marks for being shot at.  I give myself an "F" (or maybe a charity "D-") for doing damage and forcing my teams to carry me.

Well, you have to factor in "how" you support your team. Most players focus on damage and/or kills are the way to win (which is true). With GK soaking and tanking damage and letting your teammates deal damage while you take the return fire instead of them is a way to support. 

Example: I can run off with my DD and cause 100k damage, or I can cap bases and spot making it easier for my team to win.

I have GK and it's a fun ship. Always challenging which makes it fun.

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9 hours ago, Cruxdei said:

GK and the old "brawling ships" suffer from a paradox.

if i get too close,the enemy will farm me

if i play safe at range,my guns wont help me because of german dispersion and the concealment.

so all they have left is to find an opening to push and strike the enemy,pommern teached me that secondary guns are not good on german ships,they need better commander skills to survive the  HE spam or better secondary gun performance,because right now they are just there as fireworks.

the main problem of finding an opening is that you might see it but most of the time you are in no position to exploit it.

montana,yamato,conqueror,republique,they can play safe at range and it works very well for them because they are not "brawling" ships

kremlin meanwhile,is a new generation of brawling ship,able to shrug off HE spam and can shatter most HE shells easily while tanking a lot of AP,and the soviet dispersion is much better,they can play safe until an opening and they can be in position to exploit.

I dont think its a paradox at all.  A ship that can push into the enemy and survive long enough while being shot at by a significant number of ships and still impact the game would be pretty broken.  

Think of it like fighting a spearman with a sword.  You can win, but you are going to need to set up your move that gets you inside.  In my videos example I was able to exploit the enemy pushing into the middle lines of the map closing distance, and I was able to limit the number of pointy things that could poke me while I eliminated the spearmen one at a time.  

Either case of not seeing the opportunities, or being in a position to exploit them is an awareness problem.  That can be corrected.

This is a much older video, but I go one vs four against two Yamatos and two FDGs.  I end up kiting them quite a bit, but some of the CAs and BBs hang back in the cap, others chase me.  Eventually the ships that hung back arent really a threat to me, and that lets me slow up, stop and begin reversing back into secondary range to start melting ships.  Secondary wise I am looking for a window to use them, but if it doesnt happen my other positioning requirement should allow me to hunt broadside targets with my main battery.  That alone can result in a disgusting level of damage done.

One build I need to try is a Jutland captain with a tank build and the captains improved JOAT.  Looking it over you can get 61 second cool down on your DCP with JOAT, HA and the signal and 69 second cool down on your repair party.  GK can also mount and additional repair giving it more HP than a Kremlin to work with if you do your part spacing out the fight.

3 hours ago, Mahrs said:

I didn't even research the 420s on the FDG.  I fitted them on the GK last night to mess with.  I know they don't grant an over match advantage, but I don't know what the difference in penetration is (if any).  I remember watching a test video some years back from a training room match where the 420s didn't seem to offer any meaningful advantage.  I don't know which I'll go with yet. 

Honestly...GK has an AWESOME ship's horn and the 420's gun sound (copied from Yamato?) is sweet...reason enough?

The shame of it all, for me, is that GK is already, after only 6 battles of poor to middling quality, in second place overall for average damage - it barely eclipses my Hindenburg and beats out FDG by 10k / match.  Hindy got some buffs while I was away, so my damage there is increasing and she is easier to play now (my PR in the ship dropped while I was away, a sure indicator)...but, still.  It's been said that BBs have got to put in the damage and I am inclined to agree...which means that right now I'm largely a liability and that's frustrating.

I think GK has a LOT of potential though, especially for someone like me.  I like to stay mobile - managing the maneuverability is tough, but the ability to show a broadside and eat heavy damage from normal pens rather than getting out right deleted is a pretty significant strength.  I just need to learn and adapt...definitely has a much different feel than FDG or Biz...or the USN ships. 

First place?  Oh, that's Georgia...turns out the functional secondaries on an agile BB with accurate guns and about 13km surface detection works out OK even for scrubs like me. WG's "bag-o-gimmicks" working OK here it seems, heh. 

I think the 420s are a waste of resources.  I'd be interested in hearing good BB players speak on this, but I think the only thing they have going for them is slightly more alpha.  With the blunderbuss levels of accuracy I'd rather throw more poop on the wall.  There are times I will shoot HE to jump start fires and force a DCP on a target locked in my secondaries.

Hindenburg is a damage dealing CA, meaning it adds little to the team other than bringing pain to the enemy.  These ships should be pretty close to BB levels of damage.

On 10/6/2020 at 7:36 AM, Mahrs said:

Much sadness from me through my first five matches.  The guns are...woeful.  On the bright side, I think 3.8 mil PD might be a new personal best.  Every game was over 1m, 2 over 2 and 2 over 3.  So, I give myself full marks for being shot at.  I give myself an "F" (or maybe a charity "D-") for doing damage and forcing my teams to carry me.

Going to try to answer this a bit better.  Tanking just to tank is bad.  Notice how I used my HP in the least efficient manner to eliminate specific threats vulnerable to me, like turning around to grab that low HP DM dug into the islands.  I hardly lost any HP stopping the initial push and killing the second Petro because I was being efficient with my HP.  That DM was in a must die position forcing me to be less efficient with my HP or risk losing allied DDs to the DMs radar.

Without that threat I would have continued playing safe with my HP denying big shots to the Monty, Yamato and Thunderer, and turned around when it was safer to do so.  Try to think of your HP as a measure of how much work you can do.  

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Well, perhaps it will come.  10 games in now, and the four I played last night were uniformly terrible.  Carried to victory by my team in every case, I'm not sure I survived any of the matches and didn't make it past the first five minutes in at least two of them.  Karma visited me when I lost a match in Tirpitz where I actually did play well (just ran out of carry when their Kaga and T9 DIV realized I was the only thing between them and winning after I smoked one of their cruisers). Likewise, I played a solid match in Georgia that resulted in a loss.  I guess that's cosmic balance - lose where I play well, win when I get carried.  I don't like it, I tell ya!

I switched up my game play and tried to incorporate more aggression in my positioning so that I could do damage effectively.  Failed hard, and was overly aggressive / committed to what I thought were openings early game.  In both cases of very early death it was a Shimakaze that accounted for the initial damage, mostly all irreparable, and use of dam con that left me as easy pickings.  A shame because it woulda/shoulda/coulda been awesome if I hadn't eaten the torps...there's probably a lesson there about accounting for red DD before making any aggressive moves.

I've actually struggled against Shima in nearly every match the ship is present, often taking significant torp damage.  I had a decent match two nights ago where I made a sort of erratic turn to reposition and just barely missed eating an entire spread.  I asked for help spotting and I'll be damned if that Shima didn't show up 6km off my starboard side.  Match ended on points a few seconds after that and is probably the only thing that saved my ship.

The slightly more delayed deaths were holding a flank alone against 2x GK and a Montana (who just HE'd me to death over time) and dominating A Cap in a one DD match on Trap.  In the latter I lost awareness and just out ran my hard cover by a little - just bad positioning and awareness.  I'd gotten excited about a Montana that wanted to man fight my GK at spitting distance and was too focused on Monty.  Those two were not as well played as they could have been, but at least they didn't feel like a complete waste where I threw my ship away.  

ETA: I generally do pretty terrible in ALL the KM BB, actually.  I was just reviewing my performance...and, pre-nerf Konig from years ago was the last time I actually played well/won consistently in a KM BB. Bayern, Gneis, Bis (and Tirpitz, my two most played), and FDG are objectively mediocre to bad.  I'm not a BB main and the KM ships are definitely not something I've learned to play - that much is clear.

Edited by Mahrs

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