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DJC_499

Citadels from Secondary Battery

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During the last couple of days I have noticed on two occasions that I have apparently gotten citadel damage from my secondaries. In one case it was the Pommern on which I run IFHE, and had targeted a cruiser (do not recall which one) while concentrating on another ship on the opposite side of my ship with my main battery. I was in the process of waiting from my main battery to reload when I heard and saw that I had sunk the targeted cruiser, but at that point the citadel notice also popped up showing two citadels had occurred. Coincidentally, essentially the same thing then happened with the Yamato when I saw the 155s fire and a cruiser was instantly sunk and 3 (!!!) citadel flags were shown (no IFHE on the Yam, but it does have manual secondaries). I checked the forums and read where this was noted, especially back when some secondaries fired AP, but I do not recall seeing this except for these recent cases. (Thanks for any thoughts...)

The Pommern 150s would have 46 mm of penetration, but that seems pretty low to get a citadel and even moreso with the Yam.....

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Before they we're all changed the HE, most IJN and other BBs had AP on some secbats. IJN was most affected with the casemate guns or mounted 155s. Izumo was notorious for The citadels too.

The German line of BBs ushered in the all HE change as Devs saw AP was largely ineffective and citadels of this type were rare.

However, penetration values with IFHE is based on standard secbat range of 6-11km.

But sail past a squishy cruiser, your secbats fire into it, and the shell initial velocity does the penetration sufficient enough for citadels.

This phenomenon is frequently observed in the past with Battleship HE and HE rockets on lightly armored CVs or cruisers.

Since you don't control the point of impact, manuals fire center mass and often in a drive-by, will hit dead on a squishy cruiser.

Non-manual secbat fires wider, but encompasses a larger area and is likely to start fires middle to bow and stern. 

It is much more rare in that particular case of citadels because they fire wider, but it is still possible at less than 9km.

The capability is dependent on initial shell velocity of the secbats. Anything approaching 1000m/s will be very effective from 6km or less to squishy cruisers with 100mms IJN for instance.

And the is not adding IFHE. Just AP used in that example.

IFHE is a nifty skill. Higher velocity shells benefit, but you have to be close.

In a BB, you are getting away with murder.

Just look at secbat gun specs on most ships. And those close to 1000m/s will benefit from IFHE but that is a fighting style not for DDs, but BB close quarters action.

However, having said that, you have to rig high survival on secbats because I did mention a while back about DDs capable of knocking them out from range with AP.

And recently, DD players have rather cleverly adopted that idea and it is part of DD doctrine to take down secbats first, then close in with torps when BB main battery are pointed in the wrong direction.

This has created very aggression DD play. It's most evident in co-op. Players now take their DDs in and pummel secbats, then sweep the leg with torps. Bots can't do anything about dodging if their secbats are gone. 

It is not uncommon to see DD players rake it in the co-op mode because of this.

I really can't take credit. I just mentioned the guns, then DD players tried it, then the tactics evolved from there.

Now you got Little DD Monsters running about much to the chagrin of myself and other BB players.

Whether this doctrine is being worked successfully in PvP is unclear, but you could ask a PvP DD main if they tried it.

Just adding this out there because it used to be that DDs were always running. Now they stalk, hit from concealment, and rip you a new one when you aren't looking.

Cruisers still have it rough. DDs are not really afraid of radars if they "Toy" with them.

And radars are usually more nervous of getting spotted. But lose their tubes and a BB drives by and it's a nightmare for them too.

Hope this helps with insight.

Good luck.

Stuck at work, so I don't always check back. But if you got follow up questions, feel free to ask.

<O

 

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I got one citadel hit on a Konigsberg back when my Ishizuchi had AP in its secondaries. Not since.

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As far as I know no ship has AP secondaries now. However the secondaries do aim at the waterline by default. While irritating at close range, it is possible to citadel some squishy cruisers with secondary HE. This is probably what's happening here. What cruisers were they?

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2 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

How does Mikoyan's citadel armor compare to the German secondaries it can face??

 

35mm citadel side armor..50mm citadel deck.

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1 minute ago, Grapefruitcannon said:

35mm citadel side armor..50mm citadel deck.

So any German secondaries of 140mm or higher would potentially citadel Mikoyan.  

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Just now, KilljoyCutter said:

So any German secondaries of 140mm or higher would potentially citadel Mikoyan.  

Or a flock of seagulls..

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11 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

As far as I know no ship has AP secondaries now. However the secondaries do aim at the waterline by default. While irritating at close range, it is possible to citadel some squishy cruisers with secondary HE. This is probably what's happening here. What cruisers were they?

Hi @AJTP89

I do not now recall. One was a Tier VII and another a Tier VIII, probably CLs and since it was a Coop battle they were likely only a few clicks away (and also probably showing full broadside...)

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1 minute ago, Grapefruitcannon said:

Or a flock of seagulls..

Obviously, Mikoyan should run... run so far away... 

 

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58 minutes ago, Grapefruitcannon said:

Or a flock of seagulls..

Maybe the hairstyle. But a limit wears that and that is a serious drag.

Bob your head like that SNL skit and you could do serious harm to squishy cruisers.

Edited by SteelRain_Rifleman

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58 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Obviously, Mikoyan should run... run so far away... 

 

Oh, that song takes me back.

Back when we had a serious shortage of styling mousse. And member's only jackets with rolled up sleeves.

I am glad I was busy on Rylos at the time.

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1 hour ago, DJC_499 said:

Hi @AJTP89

I do not now recall. One was a Tier VII and another a Tier VIII, probably CLs and since it was a Coop battle they were likely only a few clicks away (and also probably showing full broadside...)

When a squishy cruiser pulls a Sharon Stone scene from Basic Instinct and you are that BB with the Michael Douglas chinned captain. 

Squishy cruiser: "I can see you are happy to see me... ooofff!" * Massive citadel from main guns, then the secbats pile on the afterglow citadel pens.

BB Michael Douglas: "I may have used excessive force. But can you blame me? Is that an ice pick?"

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1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I got one citadel hit on a Konigsberg back when my Ishizuchi had AP in its secondaries. Not since.

I can only recall a few back in the day too, but never from that turd of a BB, Ishizuchi.

I think they were Kongou's. And a few from Fuso. IJN seems the highest probability back then. 

 

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2 minutes ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

but never from that turd of a BB, Ishizuchi.

I don't find her that bad, just misunderstood. She's really an overclocked battlecruiser, with an extra turret over most BC designs of that era, and she suffers accordingly when BB's find her side.

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1 hour ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Obviously, Mikoyan should run... run so far away... 

 

Much like a flock of seagulls.....

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35 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I don't find her that bad, just misunderstood. She's really an overclocked battlecruiser, with an extra turret over most BC designs of that era, and she suffers accordingly when BB's find her side.

Yeah, she suffers. I seem to recall getting ripped by a Wyoming. It's not fun.

Especially when you fire back and half go over, rest go in water.

If I am lucky, I might ding Wyoming's ship's bell with a shell. I am glad I sold it.

Then WG gave me one twice in Christmas containers, and the occasional super in the second year.

But I am so happy that it's no longer in the rotation. LOL 🤣

 

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1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I don't find her that bad, just misunderstood. She's really an overclocked battlecruiser, with an extra turret over most BC designs of that era, and she suffers accordingly when BB's find her side.

Ishizuchi has to use her speed and dink and dunk other BBs.  She's fine at range but her armor just sucks.

 

I also remember seeing Kongo, Fuso be misused, i.e. some try to brawl New Mexicos, Konigs, Bayerns with them in Random Battles.  Doesn't end well for them :Smile_veryhappy:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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6 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Oh, that song takes me back.

Back when we had a serious shortage of styling mousse. And member's only jackets with rolled up sleeves.

I am glad I was busy on Rylos at the time.

First "Last Starfighter" reference I've ever seen, SteelRain_Rifleman.... what a hoot.  Love that movie.  Robert Preston does a reprise of "Music Man" in a space movie.  Great fun.

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It's extremely rare, but it does happen. Usually on very lightly armored cruisers or bottom tier carriers. 

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7 hours ago, Thunder_Feet said:

First "Last Starfighter" reference I've ever seen, SteelRain_Rifleman.... what a hoot.  Love that movie.  Robert Preston does a reprise of "Music Man" in a space movie.  Great fun.

Well thanks, but I do reference the movie at times here. It's buried in the maze of posts and threads. Although Robert Preston has done quite a body of work. The "Music Man" Plot however involved selling of music instruments by rallying the town to get rid of the pool hall and getting to the only credible person there, The Librarian, to agree with him. However, he played a con man in that musical. The town eventually figured it out, but somehow, the idea of their kids playing instruments, albeit really bad, seemed appealing to the parents and all was forgiven. The relationship with the Librarian was strained of course and the con man very nearly ruined it. 

Quite a story I might add. A lot of allegory to certain things today I might add. But I reckon a clever person such as yourself probably knows what that is. Hence, I made the Starfighter reference, because most peeps only remember Music Man. And you pointed it out for me. 

Starfighter, he set up machines to test skills of gamers to find new starfighters. It was not well received by the Starfighter Command, but since the other Starfighters were wiped out by a meteor strike, sabotage by their own kind within, and a very egotistical British actor named Xur. The son of the leader of Rylos. It was well received as the father/son dynamic struggle that Star Wars had with Vader/Luke. Just in reverse.

Again, an allegory to certain things I would mention, but I think folks can read between the lines. 

Music Man at least had singing, dancing, a very young Ron Howard, and a Shirley Jones performance for the ages. No singing in Starfighter, but that music was awesome. And Dan O'Herliy's line in that movie was epic. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Music Man at least had singing, dancing, a very young Ron Howard, and a Shirley Jones performance for the ages. No singing in Starfighter, but that music was awesome. And Dan O'Herliy's line in that movie was epic. 

I think I've seen Starfighter more times than music man.  And yes, I called it a reprise because con man using the same "techniques" in both films.  Fast talking peddler of red herrings and other assorted rhetorical tricks,  He had that schtick down like nobody else.

Shirley Jones was great, my problem with music man was the composition of the music.  It just doesn't rise to the musical quality of such greats as South Pacific or My Fair Lady.  Nevertheless, thanks for the great trip down memory lane.  I'm gonna find and fire up my DVD of Starfighter.

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5 minutes ago, Thunder_Feet said:

I think I've seen Starfighter more times than music man.  And yes, I called it a reprise because con man using the same "techniques" in both films.  Fast talking peddler of red herrings and other assorted rhetorical tricks,  He had that schtick down like nobody else.

Shirley Jones was great, my problem with music man was the composition of the music.  It just doesn't rise to the musical quality of such greats as South Pacific or My Fair Lady.  Nevertheless, thanks for the great trip down memory lane.  I'm gonna find and fire up my DVD of Starfighter.

You're right about The Music Man being not on the same level as those other two musicals.

Other than Shirley Jones, it was a good, just not great.

I too will fire 🔥 up my VCR and watch starfighter in its blazing glory. But first I got to clean the heads, replace some drive belts, and hope the RCA jacks don't get laughed at by the new LED TV. ...now where is that adapter....

Edited by SteelRain_Rifleman

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On 10/5/2020 at 7:12 AM, Grapefruitcannon said:

Or a flock of seagulls..

622265112_2020-08-25(2)_LI.thumb.jpg.2aeb2aa74d78cd00fd5789c4624d00aa.jpgYes I am going to keep posting this anytime I see a seagulls ref.

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