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shadragon

Invisible Ships

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The time has come for a serious discussion on the ability of a ship, without direct line of sight to the target, to hit that target unerringly as if they could see them first hand. 

I have lost multiple battleships to other ships behind islands or smoke. The last game I just played I was taken from 100% to 0% by a Minotaur. I never saw them, even though they were in open water, but they could see me perfectly. There were invisible and unless I got really lucky with my shots, invulnerable. This mechanic makes World of Warships into a moist version of World of Tanks. It has zero basis in reality and skews game balance dramatically. 

If you are in smoke, or behind cover and not firing. then you should be invisible. I have no issues with that at all. That's what smoke screens are designed for.

If you are in smoke, or behind cover and fire guns, then you should become visible for a brief period of time; three seconds as a minimum would be appropriate. 

If you are in smoke, or behind cover you should not see my ship on the main screen as if there was no smoke or cover. You should have an accurate plot on the mini-map and that's it. There is a gun circle displayed on the mini-map, that's what you have to guide torp and gun attacks. 

If you are in smoke or behind cover and can see the target (like from your spotter plane) , then there should be a dispersion penalty. You are not seeing the target yourself, you are being given positional information from another unit. That info relay takes time, is subject to error and there is a delay which will result in your shots going wide. 

Smoke and cover obscure line-of-sight in both directions. It's time for the game to reflect that. 

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Please upload the replay from the game you are talking about in a post in this thread, so we can watch it and see what happened.

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12 minutes ago, shadragon said:

The last game I just played I was taken from 100% to 0% by a Minotaur. I never saw them, even though they were in open water, but they could see me perfectly.

I assume you mean the Mino was in smoke.

12 minutes ago, shadragon said:

Smoke and cover obscure line-of-sight in both directions. It's time for the game to reflect that.

It's counter play for ships that can't fight in open water, which is the majority of ships in the game.  You've been playing the game for long enough, you should have a reasonable understanding of how ships are balanced.

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16 minutes ago, shadragon said:

f you are in smoke, or behind cover you should not see my ship on the main screen as if there was no smoke or cover.

Islands and smoke work both ways... They can't see you, and you can;t see them... You  can test this in the training rooms.

 

16 minutes ago, shadragon said:

Smoke and cover obscure line-of-sight in both directions. It's time for the game to reflect that. 

It does reflect the principles of smoke and island cover.. Test it in the training rooms.


Here I recommend to view and study this series...

  • Click on the upper right corner
  • Click on "how it works, spotting system"

You can, use the training rooms to test out what is being shown.

GL

BTW

IF a MIno is taking you down in a BB, then

  • Stop showing broadsides..
  • Shoot at it.. Its squishy as jello..
  • Position your BB properly.

Just a few points to help you out.

Edited by Navalpride33
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21 minutes ago, shadragon said:

If you are in smoke, or behind cover you should not see my ship on the main screen as if there was no smoke or cover. You should have an accurate plot on the mini-map and that's it.

 

Also, this would render most DDs, nd entire class of ship in the game, useless.  They are instantly targeted by most of the red team the second they are spotted and they cannot take hits very for long at all without sinking.  Doing damage from stealth (smoke or islands), has been the DD's general method of gameplay (give or take some exceptions), since the beginning of the game.

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18 minutes ago, shadragon said:

Smoke and cover obscure line-of-sight in both directions. It's time for the game to reflect that. 

They do. If you're in smoke you can't see out unless someone else is spotting or someone fires their guns close enough for the smoke gun bloom to spot you for them. Same behind islands, only way they can see you is if someone else is spotting.

The team spotting mechanic is something that makes the game more interesting, having to do your own spotting just wouldn't work. That's a fundamental mechanic the entire game is based around so it's not going anywhere.

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I drive a Mino and frankly.... If a Mino rains tiny shells on your overbuilt BB, You have all day to fire a round his way until you land a hit. Freeze aim point there and salvo the rest of your guns, sometimes that is enough to delete the mino.


If you just sit there and do nothing while Mino takes 10 minutes to sink you by a thousand cuts or shells, then you are the one who is in need of churching up in battle minded aggression to go after prey stupid enough to open fire on you with inadequate guns.

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44 minutes ago, shadragon said:

The last game I just played I was taken from 100% to 0% by a Minotaur. I never saw them, even though they were in open water, but they could see me perfectly

How to blindfire:

1: find angry smoke cloud

2: pop spotter plane

3: put recticle just below center of where the source of the shells are

3a: if spotted ship is nearby, lock onto it for better dispersion

4: pull the trigger

5: profit

 

Alternatively...

1: find angry smoke cloud

2: stay dark and run away from angry smoke cloud

Also alternatively...

1: find angry smoke cloud

2: let friendly radar cruiser shine light on said cloud

3: wait 6 seconds, pull trigger

4: profit

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1 hour ago, shadragon said:

Smoke and cover obscure line-of-sight in both directions. It's time for the game to reflect that. 

The time for the game to reflect that was in Alpha or Beta, too late now. We have several hundred ships in game, all balanced around the current concealment mechanics.

The concealment rules work the same for everyone. Learn how to use them to your advantage, that's a major part of what the game is all about.

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1 hour ago, xHeavy said:

If you just sit there and do nothing while Mino takes 10 minutes to sink you by a thousand cuts or shells.....

It's not just Mino.

A lot of BB (and some CA) players love to just sit in one spot and bowtank, making them vulnerable to high ROF ships and/or HE spammers.

I all but sunk (somebody else finished him off) a Petro doing just that with my Hindy, from 17-20km. I was able to dodge most of his shells, while I hit with most of mine, plus I got 5 fires on him.

Or we've all seen the stronk Russian BB stop and back up in open water, and get burned to death.

Everybody wants to get closer so they can hit enemies with their sword, without being concerned about leaving room for escape, so all they can do is back up and delay the inevitable.

I'll risk a possible citadel hit or two, turning away at mid-range, before I barrel into close range, and back up, inviting certain death by a thousand cuts.

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2 hours ago, shadragon said:

The time has come for a serious discussion on the ability of a ship, without direct line of sight to the target, to hit that target unerringly as if they could see them first hand. 

OK, so here is your serious discussion:

THIS IS A GAME!!

The game has NOTHING to do with reality! Never has, never will, deal with it or go play something else less frustrating for you, cuz this ain't gonna change.

Serious enough for ya?

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I had a recent issue where a ship was in open water, no smoke, and outlined in red (thus detected), but was not drawn even though it was inside my firing range.

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3 hours ago, Burnsy said:

Please upload the replay from the game you are talking about in a post in this thread, so we can watch it and see what happened.

It should almost be a requirement before they can post a thread like this.

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4 hours ago, shadragon said:

The time has come for a serious discussion on the ability of a ship, without direct line of sight to the target, to hit that target unerringly as if they could see them first hand. 

I have lost multiple battleships to other ships behind islands or smoke. The last game I just played I was taken from 100% to 0% by a Minotaur. I never saw them, even though they were in open water, but they could see me perfectly. There were invisible and unless I got really lucky with my shots, invulnerable. This mechanic makes World of Warships into a moist version of World of Tanks. It has zero basis in reality and skews game balance dramatically. 

If you are in smoke, or behind cover and not firing. then you should be invisible. I have no issues with that at all. That's what smoke screens are designed for.

If you are in smoke, or behind cover and fire guns, then you should become visible for a brief period of time; three seconds as a minimum would be appropriate. 

If you are in smoke, or behind cover you should not see my ship on the main screen as if there was no smoke or cover. You should have an accurate plot on the mini-map and that's it. There is a gun circle displayed on the mini-map, that's what you have to guide torp and gun attacks. 

If you are in smoke or behind cover and can see the target (like from your spotter plane) , then there should be a dispersion penalty. You are not seeing the target yourself, you are being given positional information from another unit. That info relay takes time, is subject to error and there is a delay which will result in your shots going wide. 

Smoke and cover obscure line-of-sight in both directions. It's time for the game to reflect that. 

Sadly WG choose concealment as a mechanic to balance the game. Yes, it get frustrating if you fall victim to one who learned to exploit the use of smoke & island hiding.

Instead of calling for a nerf to dispersion wouldn't a reduction in islands and adding oceans to all tiers of game play have the same effect? 

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1 hour ago, MollyGodiva said:

I had a recent issue where a ship was in open water, no smoke, and outlined in red (thus detected), but was not drawn even though it was inside my firing range.

Do you mean where you can see the outline of a ship but its not there? That could be a bug

Or do you mean it's on the minimap but you can't see it? That could be due to weather effects. 

Regardless, we'll need to see a screen shot or replay to believe you. 

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1 hour ago, MollyGodiva said:

I had a recent issue where a ship was in open water, no smoke, and outlined in red (thus detected), but was not drawn even though it was inside my firing range.

Ships in cyclones and outside of your viewing distance will show up on the map in red but not be surface-visible. You can still engage ships using the meatball but it will be inaccurate.

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1 hour ago, MollyGodiva said:

I had a recent issue where a ship was in open water, no smoke, and outlined in red (thus detected), but was not drawn even though it was inside my firing range.

I might be stating the obvious but were they detected by Radar? 
The ship using the radar sees the detected enemies immediately in the game world and on the minimap. Her allies see them immediately on the minimap but only after 6 seconds in the game world, provided that the enemies remain in the radar zone for the whole time.

I would be interested in seeing how the game would differ if firing at ships not directly in your LoS had twice the dispersion ellipse (like I think you get if you fire without locking onto a target). In my mind this might alleviate the frustration of DDs with the prevalence of Radar and CV spotting and less sniping, but I also doubt being less accurate would be that much more fun for most players.

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18 hours ago, shadragon said:

The time has come for a serious discussion on the ability of a ship, without direct line of sight to the target, to hit that target unerringly as if they could see them first hand. 

I have lost multiple battleships to other ships behind islands or smoke. The last game I just played I was taken from 100% to 0% by a Minotaur. I never saw them, even though they were in open water, but they could see me perfectly. There were invisible and unless I got really lucky with my shots, invulnerable. This mechanic makes World of Warships into a moist version of World of Tanks. It has zero basis in reality and skews game balance dramatically. 

If you are in smoke, or behind cover and not firing. then you should be invisible. I have no issues with that at all. That's what smoke screens are designed for.

If you are in smoke, or behind cover and fire guns, then you should become visible for a brief period of time; three seconds as a minimum would be appropriate. 

If you are in smoke, or behind cover you should not see my ship on the main screen as if there was no smoke or cover. You should have an accurate plot on the mini-map and that's it. There is a gun circle displayed on the mini-map, that's what you have to guide torp and gun attacks. 

If you are in smoke or behind cover and can see the target (like from your spotter plane) , then there should be a dispersion penalty. You are not seeing the target yourself, you are being given positional information from another unit. That info relay takes time, is subject to error and there is a delay which will result in your shots going wide. 

Smoke and cover obscure line-of-sight in both directions. It's time for the game to reflect that. 

 

based on what was presented, I wonder if OP was being spotted by another ship or aircraft that allowed the Mino to take him out.

Alternatively, no one on OPs team was in place to 'see' the Mino.

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If you want to be fired on by invisible ships, take a DD into a CoOp battle that has a CV and get spotted by aircraft at the start of the match, then wait about ten seconds. 

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i agree that ships that don't have direct line of sight should have a -%to dispersion, but this is a game after all so reality can take some side steps to make the game have some resemblance of fun. If this game was 100% realistic, a extremely small portion of people would continue to play, and 1/2 the ships in the game wouldn't exsist.

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23 hours ago, Burnsy said:

Also, this would render most DDs, nd entire class of ship in the game, useless.  They are instantly targeted by most of the red team the second they are spotted and they cannot take hits very for long at all without sinking.  Doing damage from stealth (smoke or islands), has been the DD's general method of gameplay (give or take some exceptions), since the beginning of the game.

Spotting rules would still apply. If your DD can be seen <6KM away, you stay >6 KM away and cannot be detected. No one finds that mechanic objectionable. When you are seen, you run. DD's pack a heck of a punch and when piloted with skill they are formidable foes. 

87 DD's were sunk in WW2. You are right, when seen they are easily sunk. I can find no examples of a destroyer sinking a battleship by spamming HE from behind a smoke screen. 

Let's have Wargaming set up a test server and see what happens with the game mechanics outlined above. 

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22 hours ago, Compassghost said:

Ships in cyclones and outside of your viewing distance will show up on the map in red but not be surface-visible. You can still engage ships using the meatball but it will be inaccurate.

My point exactly. Thank you. 

Here's an image from my last game. Me vs a Smolensk. 

 

GameResults.jpg

Edited by shadragon

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On 10/4/2020 at 1:06 PM, shadragon said:

The time has come for a serious discussion on the ability of a ship, without direct line of sight to the target, to hit that target unerringly as if they could see them first hand. 

I have lost multiple battleships to other ships behind islands or smoke. The last game I just played I was taken from 100% to 0% by a Minotaur. I never saw them, even though they were in open water, but they could see me perfectly. There were invisible and unless I got really lucky with my shots, invulnerable. This mechanic makes World of Warships into a moist version of World of Tanks. It has zero basis in reality and skews game balance dramatically. 

If you are in smoke, or behind cover and not firing. then you should be invisible. I have no issues with that at all. That's what smoke screens are designed for.

If you are in smoke, or behind cover and fire guns, then you should become visible for a brief period of time; three seconds as a minimum would be appropriate. 

If you are in smoke, or behind cover you should not see my ship on the main screen as if there was no smoke or cover. You should have an accurate plot on the mini-map and that's it. There is a gun circle displayed on the mini-map, that's what you have to guide torp and gun attacks. 

If you are in smoke or behind cover and can see the target (like from your spotter plane) , then there should be a dispersion penalty. You are not seeing the target yourself, you are being given positional information from another unit. That info relay takes time, is subject to error and there is a delay which will result in your shots going wide. 

Smoke and cover obscure line-of-sight in both directions. It's time for the game to reflect that. 

At this point in time the ability of ships to fire from smoke/island cover just isn't that big of an issue with the proliferation of radar,hydro, and CVs.   If you're in a BB dying to a Minotaur then you're definitely doing something wrong.

Don't think that smoke is an invulnerability cloak, I've gotten fairly adept and shooting ships in smoke, and it's even easier to do with a spotter plane.  Here's a video that will help you:

 

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