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DevilD0g

Fix MM for tier 6

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Now your putting in bots to replace ships in matchmaking.  There is no reason for you to put tier 6 carriers and ships into tier 8 matches.

The battleships get outranged and and the level of game play is to hard for tier 6 ships to adapt to.  

Fill the tier 8 games with tier 8 bots and the tier 6 and 7 games with bots.  

There should be a hard line at tier 8-10 so the high tier can all play together and separate the tiers .

Give them something to aspire to and not get seal clubbed on the way up

 

Edited by DevilD0g
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i don't have that issue, and i play tier VI in random constantly... what i get is VI-VIII matches, NO VII ships, and 2 CV's per side. Everyone in game in a VI in the round complains about it.. and WG doesn't care. 

 

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Bots are there at low tier to make up full teams as compared to mid/high tier the player population is lower, especially at off peak times. This also helps the lower tier grind as there's more XP to be earned.

Personally I like +2 MM. Earns more credits/xp making progression easier.

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Low Tier can earn more credits but you don't do as much damage to high Tier opponent before your number is up. So about a wash, and the game play aspects can be discouraging, so a net negative for low Tier players and WG.

What would be better for low Tier ships in high Tier matches (non economic benefit but better for actual play experience)

  • For any Flags they fly, the effects are increased by multiplier (fire chance, AA damage, fire extinguish, secondary range)
  • gun range, detection, speed, rudder shift not adjusted
  • dispersion, shell damage not adjusted

This would be easier to program into the game, since it is just what happens when flags are used to increase offensive and defensive performance. 

If two Tiers down, a 100% increase of effects of flags, and if one Tier down, a 50% increase.

 

 

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Hard pass on this idea. Some ships up tier better than others but I like the opportunity to get mad xp when I’m low tier if I play smart 

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2 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

There should be a hard line at tier 8-10 so the high tier can all play together and separate the tiers .

So what you want is to not have the ships you play be bottom tier, by forcing the ships that make you bottom tier to be bottom tier themselves.

IOW, you basically want all mid-tier matches to be T7 matches, and all high-tier matches to be T10. You also want T7 ships to only see lower-tier CVs, and T8s to never see lower-tier CVs.

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you all know mm is broken.  Having hard lines incentivizes you to want to go higher in the tier sections your ships can operate reasonably effectively  instead of being screwed over by tiers that are really a lot better than  your own ie. tier 6 in a tier 8 battle or tier 7 in a tier 9 battle.

not many ships have radar on tier 7,   but tier 8-10 there are quite a lot !  Personally i dont see anything wrong with this request.  But if you want  your tier 6 destroyers and ships thrown into the radar pool at tier 8 then go right ahead as well as a lot of other things as well.

 

 

Edited by DevilD0g
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10 minutes ago, ditka_Fatdog said:

Hard pass on this idea. Some ships up tier better than others but I like the opportunity to get mad xp when I’m low tier if I play smart 

So what if the upper Tier players try to play smart too ? 

I didn't propose to do away with the eco benefits. Just a bit of leveling for the low tier player.

Even try on this idea, which you could pass on personally. 

When low tier, either take the flag boosts, or eco boosts, its up to the player to set up how they want to play. Can be set up beforehand.

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Never had an issue playing Tier 6 ships in Tier 8 games.  In fact the rewards are often better due to getting more rewards for damaging/killing higher Tiered ship.  

No problem with the MM found.

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51 minutes ago, DevilD0g said:

  But if you want  your tier 6 destroyers and ships thrown into the radar pool at tier 8 then go right ahead as well as a lot of other things as well.

What I don't want is to have yet another tier of ships that are guaranteed to be top tier.

Although, that might mean that, instead of players rushing to T10 to be constantly top tier, many might linger at 7, like we had before, when T10 and T7 were the best tiers to play, and T8 and T5 got screwed more often than not.

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3 hours ago, Midnitewolf said:

Never had an issue playing Tier 6 ships in Tier 8 games.  In fact the rewards are often better due to getting more rewards for damaging/killing higher Tiered ship.  

No problem with the MM found.

With my idea, you would enter the battle with your T6 using the current mode (more XP for damage done to higher Tiers). Others could use the flag boosts if low Tier, if they felt like it, but would not get the XP boosts. Everyone wins.

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6 hours ago, DevilD0g said:

Now your putting in bots to replace ships in matchmaking.  There is no reason for you to put tier 6 carriers and ships into tier 8 matches.

The battleships get outranged and and the level of game play is to hard for tier 6 ships to adapt to.  

Fill the tier 8 games with tier 8 bots and the tier 6 and 7 games with bots.  

There should be a hard line at tier 8-10 so the high tier can all play together and separate the tiers .

Give them something to aspire to and not get seal clubbed on the way up

 

I think you're missing the obvious - improve your play.  

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I see where this is going, next OP is going to demand bots in T8 games so he doesn't have to play against T10s.

Try coop if you want to see more bots.

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22 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

Again MM is the fall guy, not the problem.. Power creep for profit, their the root of the issue.

^ Certainly one of the major contributing factors. WG had a chance to take WOW's on a different path than WOT; but they choose the way of profit. Selling K cars, EXP's, Probe's and Yugo's is profitable, until the consumer catches wise.

1 hour ago, 1SneakyDevil said:

I see where this is going, next OP is going to demand bots in T8 games so he doesn't have to play against T10s.

Try coop if you want to see more bots.

If the increase in bots being used to fill up lower tier random matches is true(& it would seem so, anecdotally) then continuing along that trend, we might just see that happening. 

When you see tier 7 random games being filled in with bots on the weekends . . . 

 

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22 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

Again MM is the fall guy, not the problem.. Power creep for profit, their the root of the issue.

Can't the problem be both?

 

Take it from people who have studied statistics at a graduate level (such as myself and Merc33) your understanding of normal distribution of averages is flawed.  You have proven this over many many posts with your assertion that games with +-5% avg WR are typical.  They are not and happen more often than they should due to the ability of unicum players to form 3 person divs.  As long as players can do that, Random matchmaking is not an accurate description.

  I'm not trying to insult or badger you... just trying to get you to reconsider your conclusions...

Now as to power creep... of course that is a thing...

Now I do not think that is all pervasive... I think WG is mindful in some ways.... the British CA line and the new USN BB line are evidence to that.  Their DPM is a step back from other long standing ships in the game.  However,  things like FDR, Richtofen, and Slava are all definite offenders.  The fact that all of these ships require a significant amount of grind to obtain is very telling.

As for the OP, having bots in the so called random games should be a last resort.  Bots are really just xp pinatas that should stay in COOP where they belong (however I do wish there was a hard COOP mode).  I think as long the the bottom tier thing doesn't happen too often then it is much less aggravating.  My opinion is no more than 1/3 is acceptable.  WG claims 40% is the "no more than" number, but I suspect their are some exceptions in the coding of that number.  I am currently doing an experiment in T8 only playing one ship (Mainz) and mode and tracking it.  After 29 games, I'm at 48% bottom tier.  I am going to keep it going until about 100 games so that prior games or percentages don't have much influence on the number. 

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33 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

Take it from people who have studied statistics at a graduate level (such as myself and Merc33) your understanding of normal distribution of averages is flawed.  You have proven this over many many posts with your assertion that games with +-5% avg WR are typical.  They are not and happen more often than they should due to the ability of unicum players to form 3 person divs.  As long as players can do that, Random matchmaking is not an accurate description.

I am not using averages... I never mentioned averages in any of my posts regarding "percentiles".

I am using percentiles. not averages.

I haven't used averages to come to a conclusion.. I have posted in the past the theories and laws used in WOWS in other posts. The use of averages as I stated, its only an opinion... Its not by any mean considered fact.

Now everyone can use what ever math they like to make an opinion...That is cool.  By using averages, the percentage of deviation is just to high (again based on the percentiles)...

33 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

just trying to get you to reconsider your conclusions...

To me, WOWS statistics is a live document... In other words... I dont have/nor I need a conclusion as long, as the numbers are being updated and constant.. I monitor the numbers (before on a daily basis, now) on a monthly basis... The percentage of deviation is just not that great.. The numbers and the percentiles have been within reason, within the deviation percentage, for years now..  

 


Back to the topic at hand... Nope it can't be both because you cant have both... The community have to decide...

  1. Current MM
    • OR
  2. Over powered/over capable ships for profit..

The numbers as is, compared from patch 0.6 to current, shows... Both cannot exist and mingle happily..

My recommendation... Choose wisely :Smile_teethhappy:

 

Edited by Navalpride33

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4 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

I am not using averages... I never mentioned averages in any of my posts regarding "percentiles".

I am using percentiles. not averages.

I haven't used averages to come to a conclusion.. I have posted in the past the theories and laws used in WOWS in other posts. The use of averages as I stated, its only an opinion... Its not by any mean considered fact.

Now everyone can use what ever math they like to make an opinion...

 

Hate to tell you, but percentiles are just another way showing AVERAGES.  Similar numbers are grouped into an interval, and whenever you group a bunch of numbers together, you are averaging them.

11 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

  By using averages, the percentage of deviation is just to high (again based on the percentiles)...

Not sure what you are trying to say here.  What do you mean by percentage of deviation?? and what is too high (or what is acceptable??

 

 

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On 10/3/2020 at 8:51 AM, DevilD0g said:

Now your putting in bots to replace ships in matchmaking.  There is no reason for you to put tier 6 carriers and ships into tier 8 matches.

The battleships get outranged and and the level of game play is to hard for tier 6 ships to adapt to.  

Fill the tier 8 games with tier 8 bots and the tier 6 and 7 games with bots.  

There should be a hard line at tier 8-10 so the high tier can all play together and separate the tiers .

Give them something to aspire to and not get seal clubbed on the way up

 

Sure, I'll weigh in.  

First, the MM needs filler if no one is playing when you are.  Thus bots are necessary, unless WG wished to hear the constant moaning from players that it's Ludacris to wait 9 minutes for a match!!!!

Second, if someone with more than even 5000 matches is getting "seal clubbed", they have seriously missed learning some very basic concepts in the game.  That is not to say that getting you butt handed to you doesn't happen, but be honest, did you do something silly like show broadside to that BB you ignored for the previous 4 minutes?  

Third, you cannot as a player improve unless you are challenged.  Moving from the beginning tiers past tier 5 should indicate that you have leaned the basics and are ready to complete with more veteran players.  In tier 6 you can face players who have made it to tier 10 and have some experience advantage over you.  But at the same time the game gives a tier 6 player more XP for using the basics learned so far and holding your own against higher tier ships.  By making things easier in the mid tiers, there would be a large number of players who get to tier 10 still not knowing how to play effectively.  Sort of how the player base is now.....

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20 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

Hate to tell you, but percentiles are just another way showing AVERAGES.  Similar numbers are grouped into an interval, and whenever you group a bunch of numbers together, you are averaging them.

TY for proving my point on why I dont use or need the avg of 12 people...

Percentiles do that for me already, with a low percentage of deviation.... TY.

20 minutes ago, YouSatInGum said:

What do you mean by percentage of deviation?? and what is too high (or what is acceptable??

The use of just avg. (as you like to put do it) of a fleet... The method will have a high deviation percentage.. Meaning the data and method used, will have a high percentage of deviation from the percentiles noted. 

Again you can do that to form an opinion... That is cool, I dont recommend it as somehow being the end all. Anything (or in WOWS case) that has a high deviation percentage from the WOWS server population (for all regions) percentiles... I will take it with a grain of salt.. Or an opinion... Nothing further from that.

Edited by Navalpride33

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On 10/3/2020 at 11:29 AM, ditka_Fatdog said:

Hard pass on this idea. Some ships up tier better than others but I like the opportunity to get mad xp when I’m low tier if I play smart 

"MAD XP"   HA, it is a wash.  You earn no extra XP because you die to easily and you do significantly less damage to ships 2 tiers above your tier.  You know this if you actually watch the XP numbers you earn in same tier matches verses bottom tier with 2 tier difference.  

Heck I put 100 rounds into a T7 BB with a tier 5 cruiser and did a total of 5700 damage.  He just ignored me, until there was nothing more serious to shoot at and them BANG I was dead in one volley.    If I put 100 rounds into a T5 cruiser(s), I would do a LOT more than 5700, and earn way more XP.  

The "more XP" for shooting higher tier ships would work if you could actually do enough damage.  The way the game is set up, you get enough of a damage reduction and lack of shell penetration verses higher tier ships to negate the whole bonus XP thing.  

In the end you make no extra XP, and have a much higher chance of being deleted in one volley form a BB you can't see or shoot. 

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5 minutes ago, AXELGREASE said:

"MAD XP"   HA, it is a wash.  You earn no extra XP because you die to easily and you do significantly less damage to ships 2 tiers above your tier.  You know this if you actually watch the XP numbers you earn in same tier matches verses bottom tier with 2 tier difference.  

Heck I put 100 rounds into a T7 BB with a tier 5 cruiser and did a total of 5700 damage.  He just ignored me, until there was nothing more serious to shoot at and them BANG I was dead in one volley.    If I put 100 rounds into a T5 cruiser(s), I would do a LOT more than 5700, and earn way more XP.  

The "more XP" for shooting higher tier ships would work if you could actually do enough damage.  The way the game is set up, you get enough of a damage reduction and lack of shell penetration verses higher tier ships to negate the whole bonus XP thing.  

In the end you make no extra XP, and have a much higher chance of being deleted in one volley form a BB you can't see or shoot. 

Maybe im dumb, but if you werent penetrating it why didnt you swap to HE and shoot at the superstructure?

If i cant hurt a thing with AP thats one of the first things i do, and superstructures are easy damage for SAP rounds too...

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Just now, Princess_Daystar said:

Maybe im dumb, but if you werent penetrating it why didnt you swap to HE and shoot at the superstructure?

If i cant hurt a thing with AP thats one of the first things i do, and superstructures are easy damage for SAP rounds too...

About 60 rounds of HE and 40 AP, the little bit of damage I did do was split between both.  I set zero fires. It happens way to often as a bottom tier cruiser, you get into range, shoot, get spotted, and get deleted.  Very few T5, T6 and T7 cruisers have the range to play with BBs and cruiser 2 tiers higher than them.  So you can't hide behind your high tier BBs and do the damage to earn the extra XP.

 

That is my whole point, no damage no "MAD XP". 

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Lower tier ships tend to have lower hit point values.  The current AI targeting algorithm seems to favor blasting ships with lower values, even with a more serious threat closer to the offending bot.   Add to that the miracle of instant targeting and radar spotting and that Tier VIII battleship is sudden death to Tier VI ships.  Playing smart may not help because your live opponents are also trying to play smart. 

Yes, bots should be relegated to co-op, but do you really want to wait upwards of ten minutes to enter a battle?  They are a necessary evil.

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