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Ranked Matchmaking MUST BALANCE RADAR

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My last match was Sea of Fortune, and  4/7 reds had radar.  Four radars on Sea of Fortune.  It was permanent radar on basically all three caps.  What a disaster.

Guess which team won?

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it happens.

If it's a carrier you are detected then focused sunk. If it's a forest of radars all you can do is spam 20Km torps from way back.

Eventually you are hunted into a corner and destroyed. Such is ranked this season.

Everyone including me has radar now. Dig out the DD's trying to push forward.

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There's not even a point to playing ranked after the first week of the season. The quality of players diminishes to the point where you constantly are given bad teammates by wargaming. 

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image.thumb.png.84e3f3b54dfa2e25700ac499096e76a6.png

I fought against six radars on Sea of Fortune. Radar is tough to play around, but it doesn't stop the rain of fire three Smolensks provide.

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Yes, of course it must balance radar. That would make the game more fair and more fun.

So it will never happen. The devs. don't. care. about. the. playing. experience. They are happy that it sucks. 

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No, MM should not balance radar... Radar should be nerf in order for MM to work properly... You can;t have both.

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Radar sells and that means it will never be "balanced" until it stops being sold or a meta consumable... 

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I dislike the  progression toward mirror MM; I actually liked it when teams could have different numbers of each class, so I certainly dont care about an unequal number of radars. 

Sometimes you spawn in and you're Jesse Oldendorf,; sometimes youre Karel Doorman. 

Well, really not. Thats a terrible exaggeration of the force imbalance, and that Doorman actually died that day. 

Edited by Pugilistic

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As a DD main I say radar is fine the way it is. With intelligent play(have timers on screen) you have a good chance of being able to productive.

Don't get me started on CV's. With planes  being everywhere and counter play is hoping the CV driver's aim sucks they need to be looked at.

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53 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Yes, of course it must balance radar. That would make the game more fair and more fun.

So it will never happen. The devs. don't. care. about. the. playing. experience. They are happy that it sucks. 

I suspect what the devs what are faster churn. The faster the game ends the better.

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Battleship AP can balance it sometimes.

Skilled DD’s and CA’s can balance that sometimes.

CV’s can balance it too.

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31 minutes ago, Learux said:

As a DD main I say radar is fine the way it is. With intelligent play(have timers on screen) you have a good chance of being able to productive.

Don't get me started on CV's. With planes  being everywhere and counter play is hoping the CV driver's aim sucks they need to be looked at.

Radar is not fine when it isn't balanced... see below....

Just now, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

Battleship AP can balance it sometimes.

Skilled DD’s and CA’s can balance that sometimes.

CV’s can balance it too.

I collected hundreds of games of data on this, twice. If the number of radars is low and one team has a +1 advantage in radar, it wins 60% of the time. That is basically an I-win button. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Radar is not fine when it isn't balanced... see below....

I collected hundreds of games of data on this, twice. If the number of radars is low and one team has a +1 advantage in radar, it wins 60% of the time. That is basically an I-win button. 

 

Too many variables for your observations to be of any statistical significance.

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3 minutes ago, Learux said:

Too many variables for your observations to be of any statistical significance.

Sure, you can believe that if you like. 
 

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28 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

I suspect what the devs what are faster churn. The faster the game ends the better.

Yes, I've always maintained that. Churn is everything.

I am glad the Ranked population is falling over time. For a normal firm with a normal customer orientation, this would compel changes to the MM. But that would be too intelligent and customer-oriented, so they are adding a system of leagues that does not address the fundamental problems of Ranked, of course.

At least will still have Sprint, which is a ton of fun. 

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10 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

I collected hundreds of games of data on this, twice. If the number of radars is low and one team has a +1 advantage in radar, it wins 60% of the time. That is basically an I-win button

Anyone can collect data and pick and choose a narrative and data to fit it...

What I dont see is any use of theories or principles to back up your conclusion...

Therefor, its your opinion but it doesn't raises to the level of fact.

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Just now, Navalpride33 said:

Anyone can collect data and pick and choose a narrative and data to fit it...

What I dont see is any use of theories or principles to back up your conclusion...

Therefor, its your opinion but it doesn't raises to the level of fact.

So I counted the number of radar ships in each match. That's not a fact tho. 

Then I did some simple stats. Also not facts.

Ok. 

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1 hour ago, jondoom said:

There's not even a point to playing ranked after the first week of the season. The quality of players diminishes to the point where you constantly are given bad teammates by wargaming. 

That is not WG'ing fault....well maybe it is because lets face it,  the way the system works, it gets damn frustrating really quickly.  I myself have been Rank 10 like 5 times now and also rank 12 5 times.  At some point most people just go, "Screw it, why the hell am I playing if I can't get anywhere?"  

But seriously, the MM just assigns random people based on the class of ship they want to play compared to what is allowed in game.  That is it.  WG'ing doesn't intentionally push bad players just on you, rather it is just that there are a lot of bad players playing.

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Just now, Midnitewolf said:

That is not WG'ing fault....well maybe it is because lets face it,  the way the system works, it gets damn frustrating really quickly.  I myself have been Rank 10 like 5 times now and also rank 12 5 times.  At some point most people just go, "Screw it, why the hell am I playing if I can't get anywhere?"  

But seriously, the MM just assigns random people based on the class of ship they want to play compared to what is allowed in game.  That is it.  WG'ing doesn't intentionally push bad players just on you, rather it is just that there are a lot of bad players playing.

Especially in Ranked, because stats dont count there, but XP, FXP, etc can still be gained. 

Might be a consequence of killing operations -- now bad players cant go do Ops to grind, it's slower than coop. So there's Ranked.

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I've had one match this ranked season where my team had more radar. We had a Stalingrad and they had no radar. Not sure our radar was ever used in the match as the Stalingrad stayed in spawn.

I've had more than a dozen matches where the other team had radar advantage, and half a dozen where it's 2 or more radar to none. Not saying those matches can't EVER be won, but you are starting in a huge hole, and it's hard to climb your way out.

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2 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Radar is not fine when it isn't balanced... see below....

I collected hundreds of games of data on this, twice. If the number of radars is low and one team has a +1 advantage in radar, it wins 60% of the time. That is basically an I-win button. 

 

But did you also cross reference your # of radar data with any skill differential between the two teams?

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4 minutes ago, Crucis said:

But did you also cross reference your # of radar data with any skill differential between the two teams?

Over 100s of games, the skill differential is the same. 

Certain things provided 60% or more win chance -- +1 advantage in radar botes if there are few botes. Once the number reaches 5 or so, then the difference becomes small. +1 advantage in R5 or below players (Real Ranked, not sprint). +1 advantage in divs, etc. My second data set is 775 games. First one over 300 games. 

Sub_O once made a comment about radar + sonar being ok, i suspect that is how the devs balance it. They dont look at radar by itself. But they dont much care, because game enjoyability is bad for their business model. 

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3 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

No, MM should not balance radar... Radar should be nerf in order for MM to work properly... You can;t have both.

There are many ways they could "balance" radar, though some have been rejected.  Also note that they have nerfed radar once already by only putting the location of radar-spotted enemy ships on the minimap initially (the ship mounting the radar can see the spotted ships instantly), before allowing for full spotting for the rest of the team.

1. Get rid of radar being able to see through islands.

2. Make radar only spot enemy ships for the mounting ships.  This could be implemented on one of two ways.

2a. No friendly ships gain any benefit from a team mate's radar... or ...

2b. Have Radar spotted enemy ships on show up on the minimap for all team mates for the duration of the radar, not just the first few seconds of activity.  (Obviously, the radar-mounting ship would see the spotted enemy ships fully.)

Points 1 and 2 would not necessarily be mutually exclusive.

 

With one or both of these points implemented, it would seem to reduce the impact of radar on MM, though by how much, I can't say.

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2 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Over 100s of games, the skill differential is the same. 

Certain things provided 60% or more win chance -- +1 advantage in radar botes if there are few botes. Once the number reaches 5 or so, then the difference becomes small. +1 advantage in R5 or below players (Real Ranked, not sprint). +1 advantage in divs, etc. My second data set is 775 games. First one over 300 games. 

Sub_O once made a comment about radar + sonar being ok, i suspect that is how the devs balance it. They dont look at radar by itself. But they dont much care, because game enjoyability is bad for their business model. 

I'm not sure that you got my point.  I was asking if there was any correlation between the teams having more radar winning more and those same teams also possibly being the more highly skilled teams (statistically speaking).  Conversely, when teams with less radar were losing, how did the more highly skilled teams perform?

I don't think that you can just brush these questions off the way you did.  It's entirely possible that skill may be the determining factor here but it's hidden behind your supposition that it's radar.

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15 minutes ago, Crucis said:

I'm not sure that you got my point.  I was asking if there was any correlation between the teams having more radar winning more and those same teams also possibly being the more highly skilled teams (statistically speaking).  Conversely, when teams with less radar were losing, how did the more highly skilled teams perform?

I don't think that you can just brush these questions off the way you did.  It's entirely possible that skill may be the determining factor here but it's hidden behind your supposition that it's radar.

If as you say radar is a proxy of skill, because on the whole more skilled players are in radar ships, then you are simply confirming in another way what I pointed out: an advantage in radar is a winning advantage whether it is the skill of the player or the fact that the mechanic itself is an I-win button. 

That is why it is important to balance radar ships in the random and ranked mm.

Also once the amount of radar increases the effect drops off. That suggests that radar, not skill, is the cause of the effect

 

Edited by Taichunger

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