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murder_0ne

It's not the team's fault. It's YOURS.

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Actually, ignore the thread title. That's a COMPLETE LOAD OF GARBAGE. It most definitely is the team's fault a large majority of the time. Here's a quick selection of some games from an afternoon of playing. Note the similarities. Also note, this isn't stat shaming of the other players or anything remotely like that. This is direct evidence negating the argument that it's never the team's fault if you lose. Take a good look at the details. Note the ship type, class, other ships on the team. Stuff like that. I'm not top tier. I'm not in a high HP BB that has an outsized effect on the team if I throw my ship away and die early.

Lately games have three possible outcomes for me: I carry the team and we win. I carry the team and we lose. I get killed and we definitely lose. I've been specifically interested in tracking games where I die and we still win but there hasn't been any to record/review. Every time I die we lose.

I'm not that great a player. I have about a 49.9% win rate, mostly due to me being stubborn and continuing to press the attack when I clearly shouldn't. It's just surprising to me that even though I'm just average at best I don't end up on teams that can win without a significant contribution on my part. I don't use the player ranking mod but I do notice player rank ratings from ranked play and it seems to me that most of the players I get paired with on my team are lower/no rank than me while the opposing team will have quite a few players with higher rank that me. My current rank for this season is 10 and I just stopped playing for the moment because the grind was too frustrating with all the CVs.

Anyway, the next time someone tells you that it's all you and not the team, link them to this thread. It most definitely is the team more often than not.

 

shot-20.09.27_22.18.22-0481.jpg

 

 

 

shot-20.09.29_18.10.55-0431.jpg

 

 

 

 

shot-20.09.30_15.40.52-0271.jpg

 

shot-20.09.30_18.25.40-0241.jpg

 

 

 

shot-20.09.30_22.14.01-0587.jpg

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ALSO, note the STUPID amount of aircraft I keep shooting down in comparison to every other person on my team. CARRIERS ARE GARBAGE.

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13 minutes ago, murder_0ne said:

Actually, ignore the thread title. That's a COMPLETE LOAD OF GARBAGE. It most definitely is the team's fault

The title is correct. If you rely on your team in randoms instead of individually carrying as hard as you can, you're doing it wrong.

And btw, hard carry isn't just scoring on top of the board. Hard carry is when you have twice the XP than the second person on your team. Ideally, it's having more XP than anybody on the opposing victorious team. Try to accomplish that instead of wishing for skillful randoms teams in every match, because only the former is realistic.

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I think that to a certain extent it's bad teams but that doesn't mean that you can make it better. I use to be a player who believes it's teams fault, but you have to factor in RNG, teamwork, and YOU. 

I went on [-K-] Kraken discord and found a lesson, "You can cry about teams all you want but that would do absolute 0, what you can change is YOU" - my own words

So I thought for a moment, decided to see where this path will lead me and this is the result in rank with Goliath

World of Warships 9_21_2020 5_27_18 PM.png

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3 minutes ago, CHAOS_in_the_N1GHT said:

I think that to a certain extent it's bad teams but that doesn't mean that you can make it better. I use to be a player who believes it's teams fault, but you have to factor in RNG, teamwork, and YOU. 

I went on [-K-] Kraken discord and found a lesson, "You can cry about teams all you want but that would do absolute 0, what you can change is YOU" - my own words

So I thought for a moment, decided to see where this path will lead me and this is the result in rank with Goliath

 

The thing, CHAOS, is that Ranked teams are much smaller than Random battles teams, meaning that a single player can have a much larger impact on the outcome of the battle.  

I happen to think that the OP is mostly correct for this reason.  When you're only 1 out of 12 players, even if you play your heart out, it's quite unlikely that you'll be able to do enough to make up for the deficiencies of the other 11 players on the team.  Now, getting wins doesn't necessarily require all 12 players to play well, but it does require more than one to do so.  The number is probably somewhere around 4-6 players, though that's just a wild guess.

The problem with the "what you can change is you" line is that when you're already playing like a boss, like the OP was above, there really isn't much, if anything, you can do to make much more of a difference.  All you can do is do your very best and hope that there are enough other productive contributors on the team to allow the team to win, because no single player can carry a team of 12 all by himself well enough to win the battle.  No one is good enough to win a 1 vs 12 battle in this game.

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From what I see (just at a fast glance), the majority of the loses were close... How are they close ? The red team have a lot of ships with 1 sunk ship..

Now, red ships with a lot of one sunk win will neutralize, whatever production you manage to do..

In these cases, this is not the team or fleet's fault... Its the fault of the reds winning the 1 vs 1 battle.


In summery, its a team match.. But its an individual failure, each individual failure is subject to the Snowball effect.  The effect is harder to stop in higher tier matches.

Edited by Navalpride33
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Guess what, you can't fix the mistakes of the team. So the only mistakes you should pay close attention to is your own.

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8 minutes ago, CHAOS_in_the_N1GHT said:

I think that to a certain extent it's bad teams but that doesn't mean that you can make it better. I use to be a player who believes it's teams fault, but you have to factor in RNG, teamwork, and YOU. 

I went on [-K-] Kraken discord and found a lesson, "You can cry about teams all you want but that would do absolute 0, what you can change is YOU" - my own words

So I thought for a moment, decided to see where this path will lead me and this is the result in rank with Goliath

World of Warships 9_21_2020 5_27_18 PM.png

Frankly I agree with that- in that no, you can't change anything about the rest of the team. My point is that a large number of players beat up on players using stat shaming etc citing win rate and other stats. My point is that raw stats don't paint the whole picture and for plenty of people it's the team that affects the stats just as often as not.

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17 minutes ago, vak_ said:

The title is correct. If you rely on your team in randoms instead of individually carrying as hard as you can, you're doing it wrong.

And btw, hard carry isn't just scoring on top of the board. Hard carry is when you have twice the XP than the second person on your team. Ideally, it's having more XP than anybody on the opposing victorious team. Try to accomplish that instead of wishing for skillful randoms teams in every match, because only the former is realistic.

^

 

I played matches in Halland where I did 14k and ended up at the bottom of my team, but I spotted and capped endless buffs. Capping the buffs helped my team even though there was a few potatoes. I don't even carry my team or run off saving star.

Which will you choose, farm 130k damage, being absolute useless other than that damage, OR cause 14k damage, help spot, and cap buffs while 8 players leave the match happy and have a star. 

Any unicum with 60%+ wr can tell you that, but few accept it.

Edited by CHAOS_in_the_N1GHT
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Division in 3 person div with voice coms. Take the absolute most OP/broke ships you have.

Got some advice once. If your average or below. You are at the whims of MM. If it is a down trend. Log off.

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10 minutes ago, Crucis said:

The thing, CHAOS, is that Ranked teams are much smaller than Random battles teams, meaning that a single player can have a much larger impact on the outcome of the battle.  

I happen to think that the OP is mostly correct for this reason.  When you're only 1 out of 12 players, even if you play your heart out, it's quite unlikely that you'll be able to do enough to make up for the deficiencies of the other 11 players on the team.  Now, getting wins doesn't necessarily require all 12 players to play well, but it does require more than one to do so.  The number is probably somewhere around 4-6 players, though that's just a wild guess.

The problem with the "what you can change is you" line is that when you're already playing like a boss, like the OP was above, there really isn't much, if anything, you can do to make much more of a difference.  All you can do is do your very best and hope that there are enough other productive contributors on the team to allow the team to win, because no single player can carry a team of 12 all by himself well enough to win the battle.  No one is good enough to win a 1 vs 12 battle in this game.

I can play 10 battles in randoms today and take a screenshot of the winning streak if you want.

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In defense of those who are not top of the hill in skills, consider... 

If your team stinks to high heaven and you are expecting me/us to carry hard for the win, then we are essentially fighting two battles; one against the reds, one against our own team. 

Not only do we need to determine what the red teams' actions will be, we also must determine our own teams actions or inactions and how all of that plays together. 

Not many of us average players play the game that intently because it takes a massive amount of focus and concentration. Randoms are randoms so I put forth, the majority of your team mates are not playing to that level of intensity. 

My short rule is deal out in damage at least my own ship's weight in health. If I do that consistently, I'm contributing towards a checkmark in the win column. 

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Some games are uncarryable, but those are few and far between.

 

Consider this nightmare of a ranked game I had yesterday.

image.thumb.png.bb61ab5be00751ba2550c527ddbca954.png

Me in a Smaland vs 6 Radar. Even the Minotaur had radar. At one point I was radared for 3 minutes non-stop. Kremlin on our team complaining about me being useless for not attempting to cap a point for certain death. This is uncarryable for probably 95% of Smaland players. Torpedoes are within radar range, and they're terrible, and half their radar can stealth radar or island radar.

 

Very few people will argue that some games like this are you being an observer rather than a participant.

 

However, that doesn't, and shouldn't stop players from doing things unexpected of them. A Smaland has no reason to fight a Stalingrad, but played well, can beat one in a knife fight.

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You have a typical WOWS evening where it's just one long losing streak. This is caused by teams where 4 to 6 ships die in the first 5 minutes or so while the reds don't lose any. By the halfway point your team is down to 3 or 4 ships against 10.

When you mention this some wise acre tells you that you need to learn to carry.

:Smile_facepalm:

 

How the :etc_swear: do you carry teams like that? Talk about worthless advice.

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The delta game between a 50% WR player and a 60% WR player is ONE GAME IN TEN!  

Said another way, a 50% player and a 60% player can have the EXACT same W/L outcome over nine out of ten games.  If one player can turn the tenth game into a win whereas the other player takes a loss, the former is the 60% player and the latter is the 50% player.

I'm not talking about just ten games.  What I'm saying is...in aggregated over many hundreds or thousands of games, it only take one game in every ten (on average) to distinguish a 60% from a 50%.

There are going to be blow outs.  You'll be on both sides of that.  There are going to be partial blow outs...again...you're on both sides of that.  But there are going to be close games.  Games with teams close enough in capabilities that the skill that pushes that win over the finish line is YOU!  And the difference in skill between a 50% and 60% is that the 60% player is skilled enough to push that close game (that one out of ten games) over into the win column whereas the 50% takes the loss. 

We can extend this to clans and divisions with divisions that are both good and work together.  With a good division, perhaps you have the collective skills to push the game into the win column a net two times over ten games compared to a solo 50% player.  That'll get those division mates a 70%.  As an example, let's see how this might play out over ten games.  Both the 50% and the 70% division get ROLLED three of those ten games.  Even the hot division carries like no tomorrow but just can't make up for all the potatoes.  Then, say there are three other games where you get to route the reds, just like they routed you.  Whether you're 50% or 70%, the reds are the potatoes and get routed with ease.  Then there are a couple of really close games where even the 50% player is skilled enough to throw that into the win column.  The 70% hot division even more so.  Then there are those two games where the 50% can't carry enough, but the hot division is able to push it over to a win.  Those last two games (out of the total of ten) are all that is needed to distinguish a 70% WR player from the 50% WR player.  

 

Edited by Soshi_Sone
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54 minutes ago, murder_0ne said:

Frankly I agree with that- in that no, you can't change anything about the rest of the team. My point is that a large number of players beat up on players using stat shaming etc citing win rate and other stats. My point is that raw stats don't paint the whole picture and for plenty of people it's the team that affects the stats just as often as not.

Some preliminary observations without replay and stuff...

  • Leander match #1... defeat by points, that's what happens when you go hunting CVs and not worrying about caps... as a Leander, totally your fault.
  • Leander match #2... difficult to asses but you still went hunting CVs and got you no victory, more caps less farming CVs maybe? ... not really sure, I can't blame you as double CVs are F'd. Tough match, a lot of your guys folded quickly, everybody loses at least 30-40%.
  • T-61 matches #1-#2... you did your part but that's hardly carry level performance, looks like you go for farming BBs instead of dealing with the red DDs and securing caps, but it is just a guess.
  • Mass match... well, bad teams happens to anyone, you did your part as bottom tier but clearly that's not enough to make up for a couple potato top tiers

We all loose a lot of matches, IMO your first Leander match was totally winable if you have had played otherwise, so in a way it was YOUR fault. That lone match represents 20% of your pool sample, winning that particular match is what represent the difference between you and a very good player, the rest of the matches were probably meant to be defeats anyway regardless of how good you played. The key is winning those very close matches where you have the chance to write your own destiny, don't worry about the lot of matches that are nearly assured defeats, focus on those close matches when you are the deciding factor.

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1 hour ago, murder_0ne said:

Actually, ignore the thread title. That's a COMPLETE LOAD OF GARBAGE. It most definitely is the team's fault a large majority of the time. Here's a quick selection of some games from an afternoon of playing. Note the similarities. Also note, this isn't stat shaming of the other players or anything remotely like that. This is direct evidence negating the argument that it's never the team's fault if you lose. Take a good look at the details. Note the ship type, class, other ships on the team. Stuff like that. I'm not top tier. I'm not in a high HP BB that has an outsized effect on the team if I throw my ship away and die early.

Lately games have three possible outcomes for me: I carry the team and we win. I carry the team and we lose. I get killed and we definitely lose. I've been specifically interested in tracking games where I die and we still win but there hasn't been any to record/review. Every time I die we lose.

I'm not that great a player. I have about a 49.9% win rate, mostly due to me being stubborn and continuing to press the attack when I clearly shouldn't. It's just surprising to me that even though I'm just average at best I don't end up on teams that can win without a significant contribution on my part. I don't use the player ranking mod but I do notice player rank ratings from ranked play and it seems to me that most of the players I get paired with on my team are lower/no rank than me while the opposing team will have quite a few players with higher rank that me. My current rank for this season is 10 and I just stopped playing for the moment because the grind was too frustrating with all the CVs.

Anyway, the next time someone tells you that it's all you and not the team, link them to this thread. It most definitely is the team more often than not.

So if you die, your team loses, but if you live to fight the entire battle your team has a reasonable chance of winning.  And your conclusion is that your performance has a negligible effect because it's the rest of the team that will determine the result?  

 

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6 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

The delta game between a 50% WR player and a 60% WR player is ONE GAME IN TEN!  

Said another way, a 50% player and a 60% player can have the EXACT same W/L outcome over nine out of ten games.  If one player can turn the tenth game into a win whereas the other player takes a loss, the former is the 60% player and the latter is the 50% player.

I'm not talking about just ten games.  What I'm saying is...in aggregated over many hundreds or thousands of games, it only take one game in every ten (on average) to distinguish a 60% from a 50%.

There are going to be blow outs.  You'll be on both sides of that.  There are going to be partial blow outs...again...you're on both sides of that.  But there are going to be close games.  Games with teams close enough in capabilities that the skill that pushes that win over the finish line is YOU!  And the difference in skill between a 50% and 60% is that the 60% player is skilled enough to push that close game (that one out of ten games) over into the win column whereas the 50% takes the loss. 

We can extend this to clans and divisions with divisions that are both good and work together.  With a good division, perhaps you have the collective skills to push the game into the win column a net two times over ten games compared to a solo 50% player.  That'll get those division mates a 70%.  As an example, let's see who this might play out over ten games.  Both the 50% and the 70% division get ROLLED three of those ten games.  Even the hot division carries like no tomorrow but just can't make up for all the potatoes.  Then, say there are three other games where you get to route the reds, just like that routed you.  Whether you're 50% or 70%, the reds are the potatoes and get routed with ease.  Then there are a couple of really close games where even the 50% player is skilled enough to throw that into the win column.  The 70% hot division even more so.  Then there are those two games where the 50% can't carry enough, but the hot division is able to push it over to a win.  Those last two games (out of the total of ten) are all that is needed to distinguish a 70% WR player from the 50% WR player.  

 

Well Done Clapping GIF by MOODMAN

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4 hours ago, murder_0ne said:

Actually, ignore the thread title. That's a COMPLETE LOAD OF GARBAGE. It most definitely is the team's fault a large majority of the time. Here's a quick selection of some games from an afternoon of playing. Note the similarities. Also note, this isn't stat shaming of the other players or anything remotely like that. This is direct evidence negating the argument that it's never the team's fault if you lose. Take a good look at the details. Note the ship type, class, other ships on the team. Stuff like that. I'm not top tier. I'm not in a high HP BB that has an outsized effect on the team if I throw my ship away and die early.

Lately games have three possible outcomes for me: I carry the team and we win. I carry the team and we lose. I get killed and we definitely lose. I've been specifically interested in tracking games where I die and we still win but there hasn't been any to record/review. Every time I die we lose.

I'm not that great a player. I have about a 49.9% win rate, mostly due to me being stubborn and continuing to press the attack when I clearly shouldn't. It's just surprising to me that even though I'm just average at best I don't end up on teams that can win without a significant contribution on my part. I don't use the player ranking mod but I do notice player rank ratings from ranked play and it seems to me that most of the players I get paired with on my team are lower/no rank than me while the opposing team will have quite a few players with higher rank that me. My current rank for this season is 10 and I just stopped playing for the moment because the grind was too frustrating with all the CVs.

Anyway, the next time someone tells you that it's all you and not the team, link them to this thread. It most definitely is the team more often than not.

 

shot-20.09.27_22.18.22-0481.jpg

 

 

 

shot-20.09.29_18.10.55-0431.jpg

 

 

shot-20.09.29_19.04.36-0188.jpg

 

shot-20.09.30_15.40.52-0271.jpg

 

shot-20.09.30_18.25.40-0241.jpg

 

 

 

shot-20.09.30_22.14.01-0587.jpg

What about the rest of the games you played? Surely you played more than 6 games in 3 days, and had some wins.

You know if a loss was all or mostly your fault, it usually comes down to a wrong choice right near the end, with only a few ships left.

It's usually your team's fault, whoever you are. The question is, how often are you complicit as well?

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1 hour ago, murder_0ne said:

My point is that raw stats don't paint the whole picture and for plenty of people it's the team that affects the stats just as often as not.

And the ones with better stats are better able to overcome that.

We all get the same quality of teammates, unless we division.

Raw stats don't paint the whole picture, but overall, they indicate how well you're able to deal with the bad teammates you typically get. 

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I had the interesting experience today of talking over one of my lost battles with the top player on the winning team:

 

It's unworkable to go over every battle with the winners in this detail, but one wonders what lessons could be drawn if it were possible and how it might affect the development of the losers.

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12 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

What about the rest of the games you played?

The number you are looking for is 51 

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