Am I missing something with Plymouth?

[Shadow_Wolf7]

I have the Mino and when I saw they where adding a different T10 British light cruiser with the Plymouth I got excited but looking at the stats I'm really confused. Compared to the Mino:

Less health

Less torpedo reduction

Has the same 16mm aft and stern armor, 19mm side plating instead of the mino's 16mm, and a 114mm armor belt instead of the Mino's 101mm belt. So better armor but doesn't seem to be insanely better.

The Plymouth has six more guns but a reload of 7.5s instead of 3.2s and also has slightly less AP damage so overall two-thirds of the Mino's DPM. Only good thing here is an increase in shell velocity from the Mino's 768m/s to the 848 m/s of the Plymouth . Which will hopefully help it at long range where the shells get "floaty" but it gets slightly less range at 15.3 km range instead of the Mino's 15.76 km. And the Mino already could use a range increase IMO.

Half as many torpedoes

Significantly worse AA

Similar maneuverability to the Mino with 2 knots slower speed, 70 m shorter turning radius, 0.3 s better rudder shift

Slightly worse detectibility with the Plymouth having 11.7 km by sea and 7.2 km by air with camo where the Mino has 10.1 km by sea and 7.7 km by air with camo.

A third of the healing potential as the Mino (Doesn't get the zombie British heal)

Same hydro and same smoke

Now here's the big change. The Plymouth gets a 9km radar in addition to smoke unlike the Mino which has to switch it's smoke for radar (although the mino's radar is a 10km range). In all fairness I don't own any ships that get smoke and radar and I also don't run the Mino with radar. I get that it's really nice to be able to smoke oneself and radar to see what's out of your smoke but is this ability really worth worse stats in the majority of the categories? Honestly would have gotten more excited for a T10 Belfast or something. Give the Plymouth HE and give it the Daring's smoke or something.

 

TLDR: Plymouth gets two-thirds of the DPM, half the torps, worse AA, and a third of the healing potential of the Mino and worse detectibility for a 9km radar with smoke. Seems a lot to give up for smoke + radar. Worth it or not?

Honestly would have gotten more excited for a T10 Belfast or something. Give the Plymouth HE and give it the Daring's smoke or something.

[SteelRain_Rifleman]

23 minutes ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

I have the Mino and when I saw they where adding a different T10 British light cruiser with the Plymouth I got excited but looking at the stats I'm really confused. Compared to the Mino:

Less health

Less torpedo reduction

Has the same 16mm aft and stern armor, 19mm side plating instead of the mino's 16mm, and a 114mm armor belt instead of the Mino's 101mm belt. So better armor but doesn't seem to be insanely better.

The Plymouth has six more guns but a reload of 7.5s instead of 3.2s and also has slightly less AP damage so overall a two-thirds of the Mino's DPM. Only good thing here is an increase in shell velocity from the Mino's 768m/s to the 848 m/s of the Plymouth . Which will hopefully help it at long range where the shells get "floaty" but it gets slightly less range at 15.3 km range instead of the Mino's 15.76 km. And the Mino already could use a range increase IMO.

Half as many torpedoes

Significantly worse AA

Similar maneuverability to the Mino with 2 knots slower speed, 70 m shorter turning radius, 0.3 s better rudder shift

Slightly worse detectibility with the Plymouth having 11.7 km by sea and 7.2 km by air with camo where the Mino has 10.1 km by sea and 7.7 km by air with camo.

A third of the healing potential as the Mino (Doesn't get the zombie British heal)

Same hydro and same smoke

Now here's the big change. The Plymouth gets a 9km radar without having in addition to smoke unlike the Mino which has to switch it's smoke for radar (although the mino's radar is a 10km range) In all fairness I don't own any ships that get smoke and radar and I also don't run the Mino with radar. I get that it's really nice to be able to smoke oneself and radar to see what's out of your smoke but is this ability really worth worse stats in the majority of the categories?

 

TLDR: Plymouth gets two-thirds of the DPM, half the torps, worse AA, and a third of the healing potential of the Mino and worse detectibility for a 9km radar with smoke. Seems a lot to give up for smoke + radar. Worth it or not?

 

 

 

Looks like they should have went with a Dodge.😏😂

[warheart1992]

Depending on enemy lineups that Radar is worth it's weight in gold. Slap in the Upgrade and you can dominate a cap early on from stealth.

It's the perfect support cruiser for DDs.

[dimzzy]

Oh well--one less reason to play IJN torp boats...

[Slimeball91]

27 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

It's the perfect support cruiser for DDs.

2 minutes ago, dimzzy said:

Oh well--one less reason to play IJN torp boats...

Yeah, I can see the Plymouth pushing up to the cap, behind an island.  When an enemy DD is dumb enough to try and cap, slip out from behind the island with smoke, radar and blap the living daylights out of the DD.

 

[Midnitewolf]

1 hour ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

I have the Mino and when I saw they where adding a different T10 British light cruiser with the Plymouth I got excited but looking at the stats I'm really confused. Compared to the Mino:

Less health

Less torpedo reduction

Has the same 16mm aft and stern armor, 19mm side plating instead of the mino's 16mm, and a 114mm armor belt instead of the Mino's 101mm belt. So better armor but doesn't seem to be insanely better.

The Plymouth has six more guns but a reload of 7.5s instead of 3.2s and also has slightly less AP damage so overall two-thirds of the Mino's DPM. Only good thing here is an increase in shell velocity from the Mino's 768m/s to the 848 m/s of the Plymouth . Which will hopefully help it at long range where the shells get "floaty" but it gets slightly less range at 15.3 km range instead of the Mino's 15.76 km. And the Mino already could use a range increase IMO.

Half as many torpedoes

Significantly worse AA

Similar maneuverability to the Mino with 2 knots slower speed, 70 m shorter turning radius, 0.3 s better rudder shift

Slightly worse detectibility with the Plymouth having 11.7 km by sea and 7.2 km by air with camo where the Mino has 10.1 km by sea and 7.7 km by air with camo.

A third of the healing potential as the Mino (Doesn't get the zombie British heal)

Same hydro and same smoke

Now here's the big change. The Plymouth gets a 9km radar in addition to smoke unlike the Mino which has to switch it's smoke for radar (although the mino's radar is a 10km range). In all fairness I don't own any ships that get smoke and radar and I also don't run the Mino with radar. I get that it's really nice to be able to smoke oneself and radar to see what's out of your smoke but is this ability really worth worse stats in the majority of the categories? Honestly would have gotten more excited for a T10 Belfast or something. Give the Plymouth HE and give it the Daring's smoke or something.

 

TLDR: Plymouth gets two-thirds of the DPM, half the torps, worse AA, and a third of the healing potential of the Mino and worse detectibility for a 9km radar with smoke. Seems a lot to give up for smoke + radar. Worth it or not?

Honestly would have gotten more excited for a T10 Belfast or something. Give the Plymouth HE and give it the Daring's smoke or something.

Honestly I think it has to do with one being better than the other and more of one offering a different playstyle than the other.

First is something you mentioned it yourself.  80 m/s greater shell velocity will be a major selling point for some people.   Those floaty shell arcs are a major turn off for a lot of people and I myself tend to find trying to land shells on top of a ship instead of into the broadside of a ship, more than a bit frustrating at times.  

Second, smoke and radar is pretty huge, especially for the competitive player.   I mean you often see players of the Minotaur giving up the huge advantages of having smoke for Radar in the first place so I can guarantee you there will be tons of players that will jump at this combo.

And that is all WG'ing needs to sell the ship.  Simple as that.  It doesn't have to be better than the Mino or even as good.  It just has to have a few unique, quality of life features and tons of people will jump on it. 

[mofton]

1 hour ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

I have the Mino and when I saw they where adding a different T10 British light cruiser with the Plymouth I got excited but looking at the stats I'm really confused

I think WG are too.

The objective here seems to be to make a ship that's still unfair against destroyers with smoke/radar but otherwise pretty awful.

The Plymouth design (based very loosely on a 16-gun Town concept but implemented by WG lazily as a cloned Edinburgh with quads plonked on) was really circa 1938 and is basically equivalent to the Helena and CL Mogami i.e. T7 and T8. Through application of hilarious gimmicks (smoke and radar) WG seem to want to milk a T10 out of a T8 hull. Sound familiar?

 

Plymouth does have an advantage in a much lower citadel:

Although offset by the lack of super-repair.

The Minotaur's lower MV is also not as big an advantage as you'd think as Minotaur's shells are a lot heavier, so while not as good ballistics wise they are not at all far behind.

Plymouth seems to have the smoke+radar to try to go for a DD, but compared to radar Mino it has very low DPM and a normal repair. Overall it looks like a cynical cash grab.

 

[mofton]

22 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

First is something you mentioned it yourself.  80 m/s greater shell velocity will be a major selling point for some people.   Those floaty shell arcs are a major turn off for a lot of people and I myself tend to find trying to land shells on top of a ship instead of into the broadside of a ship, more than a bit frustrating at times. 

There really isn't that much between them, I've played a lot of Edinburgh (same as Plymouth) and Minotaur and they're almost indistingushable:

[Umikami]

2 hours ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

I get that it's really nice to be able to smoke oneself and radar to see what's out of your smoke but is this ability really worth worse stats in the majority of the categories?

Remember the Belfast?

1 hour ago, dimzzy said:

Oh well--one less reason to play IJN torp boats...

Yes, and I wish they'd quit giving us more and more reasons not to do that.

41 minutes ago, mofton said:

Overall it looks like a cynical cash grab.

From WG? I'm SHOCKED!!

[Russian_BaLanSe]

2 hours ago, Shadow_Wolf7 said:

I get that it's really nice to be able to smoke oneself and radar to see what's out of your smoke

The point is not about smoke up and radar at the same time -- that's for the T9 Black. For the T9 Black, when you shoot at the red DD without getting hit in return, you are gaining a huge advantage in HP trade. 

However, with radar and smoke on the Plymouth, the main point is about flexibility. Assume someone is taking radar Minotaur. You can hunt DD, but you can't deal as much damage when (1) there aren't many DD in the match (2) all enemy DD are dead. Similarly, you can choose to dakka farm in the Minotaur, but your ability to hunt DD is severely limited. But with smoke and radar, you can choose to farm damage in smoke AND hunt DD, without having to choose/sacrifice your ability to do over the other.  

[TobTorp]

56 minutes ago, mofton said:

Overall it looks like a cynical cash grab.

the problem with that is that wg still does not sell tier 10 directly. yes they did Puerto Rico, but even that was not direct and anyone who wanted to buy it directly paid 240 dollar. thats a lot of money, you need to convince people its worth that much.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

16 RNCL AP shells flying into a DD or into some BB's superstructure isn't going to be fun for the target.

 

Radar Minotaur has to give up smoke.  Or she goes traditional with Smoke for better camping, but no critical Radar capability.

[ditka_Fatdog]

Is the ap still short fuse? If so I’ll take 2 please

[HazeGrayUnderway]

2 minutes ago, ditka_Fatdog said:

Is the ap still short fuse? If so I’ll take 2 please

Looks like it so far

Minotaur

ricochet 60-75 degrees

0.005 second fuse time

Plymouth has the same.

 

 

[Gabriel_LXIX]

1 hour ago, dimzzy said:

Oh well--one less reason to play IJN torp boats...

A good shima driver now a days has had to contend with 40s radars, 12km radars, radars and hydros on DDs, increase in CV popularity,  every new DD line being the *kill DDs* line (I'm old enough to remember viable Shima gun builds).

 

If they can face all of this and still thrive, one more nail won't do it

[Estimated_Prophet]

Don’t play Mino because I loathe, nay, utterly despise RN CLs and RN CL AP, (the original SAP, as anyone who’s been around long enough should remember.)

56 minutes ago, Umikami said:

From WG? I'm SHOCKED!!

(Nooooo! Can’t... resist... meme-ing...)

 

 

[OnociTsalk]

43 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

16 RNCL AP shells flying into a DD or into some BB's superstructure isn't going to be fun for the target.

 

Radar Minotaur has to give up smoke.  Or she goes traditional with Smoke for better camping, but no critical Radar capability.

 

Plymouth has 9.19km surface detection with Stealth Build.  Has 10km Radar built in, so she's got a good Stealth Radar window.  Slap on Radar Surveilance Mod 1 for more lulz.

 

I also want to laugh that WG nerfed Seattle and Worcester Radar range long ago because "Stealth Radar is bad, m'kay?" then goes on to allow ships like Chapayev to maintain Stealth Radar, add new RU Cruisers with Stealth Radar, and now Plymouth is coming with Stealth Radar AND Smoke.

No idea where you pulled your stats from, but the Plymouth will have a worse detection compared to the Mino and also has a 9km radar instead of a 10km one. Not that I don't want it despite that for the different playstyle it would provide, but your numbers are plain wrong. Unless you have some inside info about changes to the ships. (Source: https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/65)

 

[OnociTsalk]

..

 

[Umikami]

32 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

(Nooooo! Can’t... resist... meme-ing...)

Yeah, and that one fits perfectly! (Love that movie!)

[OnociTsalk]

43 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

16 RNCL AP shells flying into a DD or into some BB's superstructure isn't going to be fun for the target.

 

Radar Minotaur has to give up smoke.  Or she goes traditional with Smoke for better camping, but no critical Radar capability.

 

Plymouth has 9.19km surface detection with Stealth Build.  Has 10km Radar built in, so she's got a good Stealth Radar window.  Slap on Radar Surveilance Mod 1 for more lulz.

 

I also want to laugh that WG nerfed Seattle and Worcester Radar range long ago because "Stealth Radar is bad, m'kay?" then goes on to allow ships like Chapayev to maintain Stealth Radar, add new RU Cruisers with Stealth Radar, and now Plymouth is coming with Stealth Radar AND Smoke.

No idea where you pulled your stats from, but the Plymouth will have a worse detection compared to the Mino and also has a 9km radar instead of a 10km one. Not that I don't want it despite that for the different playstyle it would provide, but your numbers are plain wrong. Unless you have some inside info about changes to the ships. (Source: https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/65)

 

[HazeGrayUnderway]

@OnociTsalk Hmm, thought fitting tool said 10km but I think I was assuming it was standard 10km USN / RN Radar.  I'll fix my post. The detection range is also incorrect there.

[Avalon304]

54 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

@OnociTsalk Hmm, thought fitting tool said 10km but I think I was assuming it was standard 10km USN / RN Radar.  I'll fix my post. The detection range is also incorrect there.

 

The fitting tool's concealment appears correct. The devblog is posting base stats, and that base concealment likely doesnt include the effects of camo, which I think fitting tool takes into account.

[mofton]

2 hours ago, TobTorp said:

the problem with that is that wg still does not sell tier 10 directly. yes they did Puerto Rico, but even that was not direct and anyone who wanted to buy it directly paid 240 dollar. thats a lot of money, you need to convince people its worth that much. 

Well, maybe 'cash' is the wrong word.

I'm sure WG know very well how much a T10 premium is worth, it might not be the straight up cash of a premium done that way, but it's always more than a T9. Whether RB through FXP for doubloons or premium time to speed grinds, or FXP more directly, or buying the steel monsters campaign there's monetization at T10, and re-using a hull for the 4th time and kicking it up is cheap effort.

2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Looks like it so far

Minotaur

ricochet 60-75 degrees

0.005 second fuse time

Plymouth has the same.

Worth mentioning is the absolutely critical fuse arming threshold, which is set to 12mm on the RN CL, but is 25mm on other 6in guns.

Unless you hit the threshold fuse time just doesn't matter as it doesn't activate. Given high tier battleship superstructures and destroyer hulls are 19mm without that addition, it just wouldn't work at flat angles, no matter what the fuse.

[TobTorp]

15 hours ago, mofton said:

Well, maybe 'cash' is the wrong word.

I'm sure WG know very well how much a T10 premium is worth, it might not be the straight up cash of a premium done that way, but it's always more than a T9. Whether RB through FXP for doubloons or premium time to speed grinds, or FXP more directly, or buying the steel monsters campaign there's monetization at T10, and re-using a hull for the 4th time and kicking it up is cheap effort.

yeah, thats true. if i had to guess, its going into the research bureau, because people wanted a high tier brit cl trainer for a long time. this will convince some more people to give their time to it.

[rafael_azuaje]

the PLYMOUTH IS A ENDIBURG with hull A en T10 & cuaq Guns

the Hp plymouth is very little as endiburg, I think that WG add HE.

here examples pictures plymouth & endiburg, both are very looks similar