Main battery turrets now much more difficult to damage/destroy?

[iDuckman]

From the 0.9.9 Release Notes https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Update_0.9.9#Hits_to_Main_battery_turrets

We've updated the mechanics behind the interactions between shells and main battery barbettes / turrets.

Previously, when a shell hit the main battery turret, damage was dealt only to the module itself, and the player received a "Penetration" ribbon without any actual damage having been dealt to the enemy ship. Now, hitting the main battery turret also entails a reduction in the ship's hit points.

The change will significantly reduce the number of no-damage penetrations.

:* Any damage dealt to a main battery turret also entails damage to the ship in the amount of 1/10 of the maximum damage of the shell.
:* The amount of damage dealt to the main battery turret modules in case of a penetration has been reduced 3.3 times.
:* The number of hit points for main battery turret modules has been reduced by half.

Now a shell hit will do much less relative damage to the turret module.  Am I reading this correctly?

[AJTP89]

I think so, that was my take away as well. I think it's to compensate the extra damage the ship takes now.

[iDuckman]

5 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

I think so, that was my take away as well. I think it's to compensate the extra damage the ship takes now.

Oh,  I accept that a nerf to module damage was required.  It's the asymmetry I'm trying to grok. Maybe a nap will help.

[Laser_Beam]

I dunno if this is still correct for Turret HP

All turrets in-game from 220mm to 356mm have 15,000 health and 406 up have 20,000 health like this:

 

So in your notes (3), Turret HP reduced by 50%, so that will be 7500HP and 10000HP, and the shell damage reduced by 3.3 times.

I read this a massive nurf to all BB that bow tank.

Shooting the turret will knock out the turret (more often) and damage the BB.....  

 

..Fun times ahead (depending on if you are shooting (or being shot at)).

[Skpstr]

6 minutes ago, Laser_Beam said:

I read this a massive nurf to all BB that bow tank.

Shooting the turret will knock out the turret (more often) and damage the BB.....  

 

..Fun times ahead (depending on if you are shooting (or being shot at)).

Looks like WG is finally trying to do something to get people moving.

I'm all for it.

[Boomer625]

How do most turret knockouts happen? Penetration from the sides and rear of the turret or through the thinner turret top, like what happened at Jutland?

[black_hull4]

2 minutes ago, Boomer625 said:

How do most turret knockouts happen? Penetration from the sides and rear of the turret or through the thinner turret top, like what happened at Jutland?

Usually the sides, Russian turrets are easy to knock out from the top, but the problem is hitting them.

[LowSpeed_US]

6 minutes ago, Boomer625 said:

How do most turret knockouts happen? Penetration from the sides and rear of the turret or through the thinner turret top, like what happened at Jutland?

If you look at the armour scheme. You'll see that the darker shade is applied to where the guns protrudes out from.  Whilst the side of the turrets are lighter shade of colour, which denotes a lighter armour plate, which means that is where the 'weakness' may be. 

I think the forward mounted turret ships will have a hard time with this change.  For example: Jean Bart, Izumo, etc.

 

[Herr_Reitz]

28 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

Oh,  I accept that a nerf to module damage was required.  It's the asymmetry I'm trying to grok. Maybe a nap will help.

The way I'm translating the translation is thus: 

Before, we had a module. Your shells beat on the module, not the actual damage counter for the ship. 

Now shells will do 1/10 of the shell's maximum damage per shell in such cases. 

Because shells will now do damage to something it previously did not damage, to offset this new damage, we REDUCED what used to be beat down due to "damage" because this will be more accurate in reflecting damage. 

 

[HazeGrayUnderway]

FR BB players with those quad 380mm gun turrets will love this.

 

Also, you still got to penetrate that turret face armor.  Some of these are very thick and resilient.

[iDuckman]

28 minutes ago, Laser_Beam said:

I read this a massive nurf to all BB that bow tank.

Overall, it may well be.

28 minutes ago, Laser_Beam said:

Shooting the turret will knock out the turret (more often)

How do you get that? 

Previous:  Turret HP 20,000.  Shell Pen: 10,001 HP  (for the sake of argument - Montana's Maximum AP Shell Damage is 13,500) 

• One Pen - possibly damaged
• Two Pens - destroyed

0.9.9: Turret HP 10,000.  Shell Pen: 3,030 HP 

• One, two or three Pens - possibly damaged
• FOUR Pens - destroyed

(IIRC, the amount of damage taken by a damageable module is never reset - only the "damaged" state is changed to functional when it is "repaired".)

[Taichunger]

32 minutes ago, LowSpeed_US said:

If you look at the armour scheme. You'll see that the darker shade is applied to where the guns protrudes out from.  Whilst the side of the turrets are lighter shade of colour, which denotes a lighter armour plate, which means that is where the 'weakness' may be. 

I think the forward mounted turret ships will have a hard time with this change.  For example: Jean Bart, Izumo, etc.

 

I see it as just the opposite. Turrets on French BBs get knocked out a lot. This will mean that they trade a little health for getting the turrets knocked out. I'd love to trade that to keep my firepower.

All BBs have forward mounted guns like that, so its all BBs that will be punished, if punishment this is.

 

[Slimeball91]

I can understand reducing the HP of the turret by 50%, but what the hell is reducing the damage by 3.3 times???

[iDuckman]

1 hour ago, Taichunger said:

This will mean that they trade a little health for getting the turrets knocked out. I'd love to trade that to keep my firepower.

Yes, and a part I didn't quote, all damage to the ship from turret hits is repairable, like fire.

[Ares1967]

1 hour ago, iDuckman said:

Overall, it may well be.

How do you get that? 

Previous:  Turret HP 20,000.  Shell Pen: 10,001 HP  (for the sake of argument - Montana's Maximum AP Shell Damage is 13,500) 

• One Pen - possibly damaged
• Two Pens - destroyed

0.9.9: Turret HP 10,000.  Shell Pen: 3,030 HP 

• One, two or three Pens - possibly damaged
• FOUR Pens - destroyed

(IIRC, the amount of damage taken by a damageable module is never reset - only the "damaged" state is changed to functional when it is "repaired".)

Overpen: Max damage x .165

Pen: Max damage x .33

Cit: Max damage x 1.0

Turret hits are not cit's.

Therefore the max damage Montana could inflict on a turret with a single shell would be 4455.

 I know you were just tossing numbers but remember who the audience is.

[iDuckman]

19 minutes ago, Ares1967 said:

Overpen: Max damage x .165

Pen: Max damage x .33

Cit: Max damage x 1.0

Turret hits are not cit's.

Therefore the max damage Montana could inflict on a turret with a single shell would be 4455.

 I know you were just tossing numbers but remember who the audience is.

Overpen a BB turret?  ;-)

I realize the numbers are bogus, but I don't see a difference when using real numbers.

[IfYouSeeKhaos]

Does "reduced by 3.3 times" mean divided by 3.3?

Doesn't multiplying (what I always thought "times" to mean) increase the number instead of reduce it?

I need some clarification (preferably by example) for this.

I got this analogy of multiplying the overpen damage by 3.3:

2 hours ago, Ares1967 said:

Therefore the max damage Montana could inflict on a turret with a single shell would be 4455.

As in 1350 x 3.3...but what is being "reduced" in this example?

I'm not sure where:

4 hours ago, iDuckman said:

Overall, it may well be.

How do you get that? 

Previous:  Turret HP 20,000.  Shell Pen: 10,001 HP  (for the sake of argument - Montana's Maximum AP Shell Damage is 13,500) 

• One Pen - possibly damaged
• Two Pens - destroyed

0.9.9: Turret HP 10,000.  Shell Pen: 3,030 HP 

• One, two or three Pens - possibly damaged
• FOUR Pens - destroyed

(IIRC, the amount of damage taken by a damageable module is never reset - only the "damaged" state is changed to functional when it is "repaired".)

You got the 3030 from there iDuckman. Edit: I got it...the 10,001 ÷ 3.3 ...which is where I figured the "reduced by 3.3 times" to mean divided by 3.3. (For the record...I was multiplying the 3030 x 3.3 but coming up just short of the 10,001 do went stupid there).

I'm a walking calculator when it comes to numbers but just not sure what numbers we're actually working w/here & the "reduced by 3.3 times" is just a contradiction in terms to me...unless I'm missing something really basic here.

[Edgecase]

5 hours ago, iDuckman said:

:* The amount of damage dealt --> to <-- the main battery turret modules in case of a penetration has been reduced 3.3 times.

Yeah, you guys missed a really important word in that sentence. It's the damage being dealt TO the turret module that's being reduced. It's incoming damage when a shell hits the turret and penetrates its armor.

Pens (normally 33% of an incoming shell's listed damage) will only do overpen (10% of listed) damage to the turret module's HP. The ship's HP bar now takes that damage as well, which it didn't before.

Effectively, turrets will have 50% more effective HP than before, but I'm not sure how that affects its actual rate of getting disabled or perma'ed because I don't know how the %chance to break or be destroyed is calculated.

[iDuckman]

11 hours ago, Edgecase said:

Effectively, turrets will have 50% more effective HP than before, but I'm not sure how that affects its actual rate of getting disabled or perma'ed because I don't know how the %chance to break or be destroyed is calculated.

"Damaged" is RNG. "Destroyed" (where applicable) is when all the modules HP is gone.

I did not miss the little word.  I uses the 10,001 figure for illustration only. 

If the effect is to reduce "pen" to "overpen", then why specify "penetrations"?

12 hours ago, Edgecase said:

The ship's HP bar now takes that damage as well, which it didn't before.

That's coincidental. The ship takes 10% and the turret takes 10%.  The turrets reduction is the same amount as the ship's, but the two aren't applied against the same HP pool.

12 hours ago, Edgecase said:

Effectively, turrets will have 50% more effective HP than before,

Yes, the turrets have more effective HP, but where do you get the 50%?

[iDuckman]

12 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

the "reduced by 3.3 times" is just a contradiction in terms to me

The phrase is correct, if a bit unusual.  Divide by 3.3.

[Edgecase]

22 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

12 hours ago, Edgecase said:

Effectively, turrets will have 50% more effective HP than before,

Yes, the turrets have more effective HP, but where do you get the 50%?

From doing mental math at midnight. It should have been:

.5x HP / (1/3.3)x damage = 165% EHP

In any case, the EHP goes up significantly for fullpens, BUT as a Reddit thread pointed out, this is not true of overpens. As far as overpenning goes, turrets will just die twice as fast as before (half HP, with no counterbalancing damage reduction).

[iDuckman]

So turret overpens are thing?  Mmm.. I guess they must be for smaller turrets.  So my cruiser is more likely to lose turrets and my BB less?

<bleh>

[Alabamastan]

Close in its not uncommon to shoot the front turrets of a BB and destroy/disable the 2nd or third just from over pens due to fuse time at higher tiers. Same on cruisers really.

12 minutes ago, iDuckman said:

So turret overpens are thing?  Mmm.. I guess they must be for smaller turrets.  So my cruiser is more likely to lose turrets and my BB less?

<bleh>