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Panzer1113

Z-52 still missing something

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Have all the tier 10 DDs, less Somers and Hayte.  In the dim past - played the Z-52 a lot, enough to buy her perm camo.  Then with all the new DD intros, CV rework and all the radar in tier 10, she was relegated to port queen for much of the time, even with the new 1/4 pen change.  Decided to take her out today due to the  Dockyard mission for torp hits and spotting for German and Pan-asian ships.  Played four random games in a row with the Z-52, and was reminded on why I had put her into port queen status....

Part of the reason is just the mix of ships being run right now.  A lot of Hallands (just about every battle), Gearings, Shima's, Darings and a few Haragumos mixed in (almost no Russian, maybe a French or Yeu mixed in).  For the most part, other then the Hara, you get outspotted (not by much), leading to surprise gun battles.  In the past, could smoke up and hit Hydro, and escape with some hit points left, but now every battle has Russian cruisers with long range radar, means that most of the time when you smoke up - boom radar goes up and you have to run - then because your AA is just Ok, any CV in the area starts to target you.  Gunfights with other DDs usually mean mutually assured destruction for both.  Not a great pew-pew ship with limited smoke time.

While torps have a shorter reload time, only four per rack and lousy damage numbers.  With only 10.5KM range - you have to get too close with the plethora of radar in the game.  Had one game today with 10 torp hits, but only averaged little over 10K in damage on each (and only four floods).  Due to meh range, end of having to send them at edge of range and since only eight, get less hits (even with shorter reload).

 

One funny thing today - for the first time in 4.5 years of playing, had back-to-back games with my Z-52 where I was detonated (I do run Mag Mod 1), so really had RNG running against me.

 

Will be putting my Z-52 back into port queen status - just better tier 10 DDs out there - and the present meta does not mix well with what she brings to the table....

Again, just my personal views, based upon a limited number of battles today....

Edited by Panzer1113
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A hydro ship in a radar meta. A ship with terrible smokes in matches dominated by CVs. This ship was so good when it came out, but it’s not hard to see why it sucks now.

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Concealment is fine. Gunnery is fine now since the HE pen buff. Although I'd give the AP a short fuze since it's very difficult to use against really anything (either doesn't pen or overpens on targets). Torpedoes need either a damage buff or reload buff since they are effectively the same torps as that used several tiers previous. Smoke duration needs a buff to the same duration as that used by IJN DDs, or they need to give all German DDs the Z-35 smoke treatment.

I'd say that's about it.

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34 minutes ago, Panzer1113 said:

Have all the tier 10 DDs, less Somers and Hayte.  In the dim past - played the Z-52 a lot, enough to buy her perm camo.  Then with all the new DD intros, CV rework and all the radar in tier 10, she was relegated to port queen for much of the time, even with the new 1/4 pen change.  Decided to take her out today due to the  Dockyard mission for torp hits and spotting for German and Pan-asian ships.  Played four random games in a row with the Z-52, and was reminded on why I had put her into port queen status....

Part of the reason is just the mix of ships being run right now.  A lot of Hallands (just about every battle), Gearings, Shima's, Darings and a few Haragumos mixed in (almost no Russian, maybe a French or Yeu mixed in).  For the most part, other then the Hara, you get outspotted (not by much), leading to surprise gun battles.  In the past, could smoke up and hit Hydro, and escape with some hit points left, but now every battle has Russian cruisers with long range radar, means that most of the time when you smoke up - boom radar goes up and you have to run - then because your AA is just Ok, any CV in the area starts to target you.  Gunfights with other DDs usually mean mutually assured destruction for both.  Not a great pew-pew ship with limited smoke time.

While torps have a shorter reload time, only four per rack and lousy damage numbers.  With only 10.5KM range - you have to get too close with the plethora of radar in the game.  Had one game today with 10 torp hits, but only averaged little over 10K in damage on each (and only four floods).  Due to meh range, end of having to send them at edge of range and since only eight, get less hits (even with shorter reload).

 

One funny thing today - for the first time in 4.5 years of playing, had back-to-back games with my Z-52 where I was detonated (I do run Mag Mod 1), so really had RNG running against me.

 

Will be putting my Z-52 back into port queen status - just better tier 10 DDs out there - and the present meta does not mix well with what she brings to the table....

Again, just my personal views, based upon a limited number of battles today....

To me, the problem is that hybrid DDs aren't strong at any one thing.  And the most successful DDs seem to be those that seem to be strong in at least one area, i.e. torpedoes or guns.  

One thing that they could do is increase the range of her torpedoes.  Or I suppose that they could lean more towards buffing the gunnery.  Perhaps by increasing their rate of fire.  

 

5 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Concealment is fine. Gunnery is fine now since the HE pen buff. Although I'd give the AP a short fuze since it's very difficult to use against really anything (either doesn't pen or overpens on targets). Torpedoes need either a damage buff or reload buff since they are effectively the same torps as that used several tiers previous. Smoke duration needs a buff to the same duration as that used by IJN DDs, or they need to give all German DDs the Z-35 smoke treatment.

I'd say that's about it.

I don't know if I can agree with "concealment is fine".  It seems sort of meh to me.  But it also depends on whether one looks at the Z-52 as a torp boat with decent guns or a gunboat with decent torps.  I tend towards the former.  Your idea of giving the AP a shorter fuze is quite interesting, though.  Heck, maybe that's something WG should consider for all German DDs.

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Said it before, and I'll keep saying it till it happens, all of the Z destroyers NEED access to 150mm guns, gives them a unique flavor without breaking them

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30 minutes ago, Crucis said:

To me, the problem is that hybrid DDs aren't strong at any one thing.  And the most successful DDs seem to be those that seem to be strong in at least one area, i.e. torpedoes or guns.  

Well, Z52 is not an hybrid. It got the HE DPM of Shimakaze, and it's AP have only flaws: poor penetration, long fuse, no angle bonus... She can do good against noob that show the good broadside (that is, not flat because you overpen) but outside of that every DD will outgun you.

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17 minutes ago, GetSchwifty01 said:

Said it before, and I'll keep saying it till it happens, all of the Z destroyers NEED access to 150mm guns, gives them a unique flavor without breaking them

Yuck.

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16 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

Well, Z52 is not an hybrid. It got the HE DPM of Shimakaze, and it's AP have only flaws: poor penetration, long fuse, no angle bonus... She can do good against noob that show the good broadside (that is, not flat because you overpen) but outside of that every DD will outgun you.

I disagree.  DDs that aren't strong at anything but moderately decent at everything are by definition "hybrids".  It's that jack of all trades, master of none nature that makes them hybrids.

 

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Z-52 in my mind was a always a DD hunter.  Not meant to cap right away but hunt the enemy dds, then hyrdo the smoke screen and blast away.

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The Z needs an AA buff and a 25mm armour chest-plate to troll other DDs in knife fights. Then it can get back to what it does best: contesting CAPs.

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2 hours ago, Panzer1113 said:

Have all the tier 10 DDs, less Somers and Hayte.  In the dim past - played the Z-52 a lot, enough to buy her perm camo.  Then with all the new DD intros, CV rework and all the radar in tier 10, she was relegated to port queen for much of the time, even with the new 1/4 pen change.  Decided to take her out today due to the  Dockyard mission for torp hits and spotting for German and Pan-asian ships.  Played four random games in a row with the Z-52, and was reminded on why I had put her into port queen status....

Part of the reason is just the mix of ships being run right now.  A lot of Hallands (just about every battle), Gearings, Shima's, Darings and a few Haragumos mixed in (almost no Russian, maybe a French or Yeu mixed in).  For the most part, other then the Hara, you get outspotted (not by much), leading to surprise gun battles.  In the past, could smoke up and hit Hydro, and escape with some hit points left, but now every battle has Russian cruisers with long range radar, means that most of the time when you smoke up - boom radar goes up and you have to run - then because your AA is just Ok, any CV in the area starts to target you.  Gunfights with other DDs usually mean mutually assured destruction for both.  Not a great pew-pew ship with limited smoke time.

While torps have a shorter reload time, only four per rack and lousy damage numbers.  With only 10.5KM range - you have to get too close with the plethora of radar in the game.  Had one game today with 10 torp hits, but only averaged little over 10K in damage on each (and only four floods).  Due to meh range, end of having to send them at edge of range and since only eight, get less hits (even with shorter reload).

 

One funny thing today - for the first time in 4.5 years of playing, had back-to-back games with my Z-52 where I was detonated (I do run Mag Mod 1), so really had RNG running against me.

 

Will be putting my Z-52 back into port queen status - just better tier 10 DDs out there - and the present meta does not mix well with what she brings to the table....

Again, just my personal views, based upon a limited number of battles today....

I feel much the same about my Z-52, it doesn't do anything that Daring can't, and Daring has much better guns. 

It's torps reload fast, but Gearing has more, harder hitting torps, that reload almost as fast. 

If I was balancing the Z-52 I'd give it 13km torps, and maybe improved AP angles or short fused AP. Longer range torps would allow it to sit at the edge of radar and contribute, without making it OP. 

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Amazing, but I just got Detonated in my Shima today, third Det today.  I have never seen something like this before - hopefully using up all my bad luck today

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I think it needs turning radius buff like it got when it was down tiered to tier 7 for that special event. That made it enjoyable again. 

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Just now, _SterlingArcher_ said:

Super helpful, super informative opinion ya got there mate..........

Why yuck?

I don't know about him, but I know I have zero interest in 150mm guns on a Z-52. The reload would make them useless in a DD fight, not to mention the AP overpens that would happen all of the time. The 128mm guns the German boats have are pretty good, with reasonable reload and great HE pen. Their biggest weakness is that the AP while having high numbers on paper, is far less useful than it should be in game. Rather than 150mm guns I think better AP angles would really make the Z boats shine. 

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2 hours ago, VeatherVitch said:

I don't know about him, but I know I have zero interest in 150mm guns on a Z-52. The reload would make them useless in a DD fight, not to mention the AP overpens that would happen all of the time. The 128mm guns the German boats have are pretty good, with reasonable reload and great HE pen. Their biggest weakness is that the AP while having high numbers on paper, is far less useful than it should be in game. Rather than 150mm guns I think better AP angles would really make the Z boats shine. 

See, thats why i said 'optional' as a potential sidegrade on the guns, in the same vein as the torps on the shima/yoshino.

Less useful against DDs, to be sure, but more geared towards hunting CLs, with bigger AP alpha. Having the OPTION to choose between the two, gives it a unique touch. Whether it's better or worse, who cares? But the option to choose between 128 and 150 would be nice.

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I think the German DD line as a whole needs some help tbh.  I don't think it would take much to make them competitive again.  I really think having a more useful HE shell would resolve most of the issues the KM DDs have.  They have the tools to hunt enemy DDs, but not the tools to engage them on equal footing and I feel like that's where they fall down.  I don't think a small increase to HE alpha is out of line, maybe an additional 200-250 dmg.  Perhaps a reload buff of 0.2-0.3s and a shorter AP fuse.  I also wouldn't mind seeing an additional 1.5km range on the torps.  That would max the Z-52 at 12km exactly, so they could do work right at the edge of max radar range.

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Z-52 has really returned with a vengeance since the HE pen buff.  She is an absolutely superb pure gunboat now.  This is the Z-52 build that I now use, post it's recent buff from 21mm HE pen (unable to pen anything but DD's and BB superstructures) to 32mm HE pen (able to pen almost all cruisers and some BB's). This makes it much more effective as a gunboat, especially against cruisers. Here is the build:

2072370123_Z-52fullgunboatbuild0-9-6.thumb.png.1639d619ffa8a4be0b09059b456d66ca.png

Z-52 has traditionally been a torp boat with its short torp reload, combined with a good counter DD ship in caps. Both of these roles she has been significantly power crept at, and her ability to torp enemies with her 10.5km range has been very much impinged by the way the game has developed over the years. She simply is not a torp boat anymore.

Her guns are good though. She has particularly good shell arcs, much better than the KM 128's up to T8. These shell arcs are midway between the Daring/Jutland arcs and the Khaba/Kleber arcs.

A full gunboat build gives her 170k HE dpm, and 340k AP dpm. The AP remains incredible in the situations where it is useful, but those situations are not common due to her low AP pen, and must be recognised and taken advantage of when they appear. The HE dpm is good, but quite mid pack for a gunboat.

Now you'll notice in the build above I don't take concealment, last stand, or priority target, all normally staples of a DD build. The reason for this is to get the key 3pt skills that really make this ship shine.

To compensate for the loss of last stand, I take PM (using Lutjens this is a -45% to primary module incapacitation), and Engine Room Protection in module slot 2 (a futher -20% to engine and rudder incap chance, plus 20% reduction to incap time if they are affected). In practice this means you will almost certainly not receive the dreaded incap/DCP/incap that is the main reason for taking last stand.

What this all means is you can take SE for the required health increase (health equals ability to fight), BFT for the better gun dpm you want for your gunboat (plus better AA on a good AA boat), DE for the extremely valuable extra fire chance you also want for your gunboat, AFT for the range that this build needs to function, and SI for the extra smoke/hydro/boost on a ship that suffers from lack of smoke but can put smoke to great use.

Countering DD's is not your job unless that DD has positioned in a way that you have far more friends than he does - in which case pop your hydro get in there and murder him. Capping is not your job, ESPECIALLY EARLY GAME, however obviously you need to be aware of the cap situation and get in there as soon as you can SAFELY do so. Think of yourself in respect to capping as the winger that gets the ball and falls over the line untouched, rather than the centre that barrels through the middle running over people and palming others in the face.

Your main job is to spend as much time raining fire on the enemy as possible. Use islands, smoke, friendly screening DD's, to take up fire positions where you have the advantage, and burn everything down. Don't stay on one target unless you feel they are near to death, but set fires then cycle to the next non-burning target. Use torps when the opportunity arises, and look for opportunities to 1v1 vulnerable DD's, but in general you will be between the first and second lines gunboating away. It's fun, and it's effective. Enjoy.

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16 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Concealment is fine. Gunnery is fine now since the HE pen buff. Although I'd give the AP a short fuze since it's very difficult to use against really anything (either doesn't pen or overpens on targets). Torpedoes need either a damage buff or reload buff since they are effectively the same torps as that used several tiers previous. Smoke duration needs a buff to the same duration as that used by IJN DDs, or they need to give all German DDs the Z-35 smoke treatment.

I'd say that's about it.

Yeah, that's the most disappointing thing.  The AP looks like it should yield good damage numbers, but it only works if a target is purely broadside within a range window of 2-3 km with just enough armor, but not too much, during a full moon on the second Tuesday of the month during a leap year.

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8 hours ago, _SterlingArcher_ said:

See, thats why i said 'optional' as a potential sidegrade on the guns, in the same vein as the torps on the shima/yoshino.

Less useful against DDs, to be sure, but more geared towards hunting CLs, with bigger AP alpha. Having the OPTION to choose between the two, gives it a unique touch. Whether it's better or worse, who cares? But the option to choose between 128 and 150 would be nice.

Which CLs are you thinking it's going to fight and win against?

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26 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

Z-52 has really returned with a vengeance since the HE pen buff.  She is an absolutely superb pure gunboat now.  This is the Z-52 build that I now use, post it's recent buff from 21mm HE pen (unable to pen anything but DD's and BB superstructures) to 32mm HE pen (able to pen almost all cruisers and some BB's). This makes it much more effective as a gunboat, especially against cruisers. Here is the build:

2072370123_Z-52fullgunboatbuild0-9-6.thumb.png.1639d619ffa8a4be0b09059b456d66ca.png

Z-52 has traditionally been a torp boat with its short torp reload, combined with a good counter DD ship in caps. Both of these roles she has been significantly power crept at, and her ability to torp enemies with her 10.5km range has been very much impinged by the way the game has developed over the years. She simply is not a torp boat anymore.

Her guns are good though. She has particularly good shell arcs, much better than the KM 128's up to T8. These shell arcs are midway between the Daring/Jutland arcs and the Khaba/Kleber arcs.

A full gunboat build gives her 170k HE dpm, and 340k AP dpm. The AP remains incredible in the situations where it is useful, but those situations are not common due to her low AP pen, and must be recognised and taken advantage of when they appear. The HE dpm is good, but quite mid pack for a gunboat.

Now you'll notice in the build above I don't take concealment, last stand, or priority target, all normally staples of a DD build. The reason for this is to get the key 3pt skills that really make this ship shine.

To compensate for the loss of last stand, I take PM (using Lutjens this is a -45% to primary module incapacitation), and Engine Room Protection in module slot 2 (a futher -20% to engine and rudder incap chance, plus 20% reduction to incap time if they are affected). In practice this means you will almost certainly not receive the dreaded incap/DCP/incap that is the main reason for taking last stand.

What this all means is you can take SE for the required health increase (health equals ability to fight), BFT for the better gun dpm you want for your gunboat (plus better AA on a good AA boat), DE for the extremely valuable extra fire chance you also want for your gunboat, AFT for the range that this build needs to function, and SI for the extra smoke/hydro/boost on a ship that suffers from lack of smoke but can put smoke to great use.

Countering DD's is not your job unless that DD has positioned in a way that you have far more friends than he does - in which case pop your hydro get in there and murder him. Capping is not your job, ESPECIALLY EARLY GAME, however obviously you need to be aware of the cap situation and get in there as soon as you can SAFELY do so. Think of yourself in respect to capping as the winger that gets the ball and falls over the line untouched, rather than the centre that barrels through the middle running over people and palming others in the face.

Your main job is to spend as much time raining fire on the enemy as possible. Use islands, smoke, friendly screening DD's, to take up fire positions where you have the advantage, and burn everything down. Don't stay on one target unless you feel they are near to death, but set fires then cycle to the next non-burning target. Use torps when the opportunity arises, and look for opportunities to 1v1 vulnerable DD's, but in general you will be between the first and second lines gunboating away. It's fun, and it's effective. Enjoy.

The build looks interesting, but seems like it would be a weak Groz more than an effective gunboat. I suppose if you only had the Z-52 and wanted a gunboat it makes sense, but I definitely wouldn't think it's worth pushing up the entire KM DD line just to make this build.

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8 hours ago, _SterlingArcher_ said:

See, thats why i said 'optional' as a potential sidegrade on the guns, in the same vein as the torps on the shima/yoshino.

Less useful against DDs, to be sure, but more geared towards hunting CLs, with bigger AP alpha. Having the OPTION to choose between the two, gives it a unique touch. Whether it's better or worse, who cares? But the option to choose between 128 and 150 would be nice.

It would add flavour, but it would still result in an objectively weak DD. I'm not opposed to WG doing it, but I'm opposed to them doing that as a "fix" for Z-52's struggles. 

I'd prefer to see Z-52 buffed to make it a more compelling choice as a DD, rather than it's current position of being a generally bad choice for random battles. 

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5 minutes ago, VeatherVitch said:

The build looks interesting, but seems like it would be a weak Groz more than an effective gunboat. I suppose if you only had the Z-52 and wanted a gunboat it makes sense, but I definitely wouldn't think it's worth pushing up the entire KM DD line just to make this build.

Dont forget the captain also.

Reading his playstyle it seems like the Gearing, but that may just be me.

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21 minutes ago, VeatherVitch said:

The build looks interesting, but seems like it would be a weak Groz more than an effective gunboat. I suppose if you only had the Z-52 and wanted a gunboat it makes sense, but I definitely wouldn't think it's worth pushing up the entire KM DD line just to make this build.

I have all the T10 DD's in the game.  Z-52 is far better than Groz.  The pen makes the difference, especially against cruisers.  She's a very good ship now, when played to her strengths.

If you play her like a torp boat or cap contester you're destined for a miserable experience.  She's a second line gunboat, with a ton of utility, and is very good in that role.  She's a really enjoyable experience now.

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5 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

I have all the T10 DD's in the game.  Z-52 is far better than Groz.  The pen makes the difference, especially against cruisers.  She's a very good ship now, when played to her strengths.

If you play her like a torp boat or cap contester you're destined for a miserable experience.  She's a second line gunboat, with a ton of utility, and is very good in that role.  She's a really enjoyable experience now.

I may have to give it a try that way, because it is stands now the old way of playing her is unbearable. 

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