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shinytrashcan

Cossack just highlights whats wrong with the game

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I think most of us have seen that there is a Cossack rental to be had from prime gaming, formerly twitch prime. If not, check it out you'll get Cossack plus a 6pt. Captain for 2 or 3 days, cant remember.

My impressions so far are divided, very much so. First of, I like RN DDs and Cossack fits right in the style with good agility, hydro and short burst smoke. The guns take a bit to get used to but once you got it are really good. And if she is not bottom tier she can be very nasty indeed. However, her obvious weakness is just killing it for me: virtually no AA. She has no high caliber AA, top range of AA is 2.5km (at least makes toggling AA unnecessary) and the worst part is: they all know it.

So far in the few games I had her I think I was in a non-CV game twice. The rest was T10 or T8 CVs, both of which can just eat you alive if they want. So you have to play careful and at long range, which she is not designed to do. In the current meta this ship is really hit or miss, and the question whether I will enjoy playing her depends primarily on the presence of a single other ship. I would be ok with this, but why is WG giving out a rental for a ship that is basically obsolete in the CV heavy meta?

This some joke I don't get? I mean, I actually thought about buying her because she was so much fun in a few battles, but the other battles just made so salty its unbelievable.

What are your thoughts on this? Is Cossack still viable or is this just an attempt to cash in on an old premium?

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6 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

 just made so salty its unbelievable.

 

Maybe it's time to step outside and go for a walk.  Bad games are bad games but, in my 5 year of WoWs, I have never been "so salty its unbelievable".

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In my eyes the biggest problem with hwr isn't the AA because you have those nice quick smokes is her lack of a deletion factor....the 4 torps isn't enough to kill  BBs a lot of the time....she is great against dds but fails agai st most other things..

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The Cossack and RN dds in general are excellent at dodging cvs with the short smokes early/mid match. The CVs don't have time to just hang around waiting out your smokes if they want to win the match. 

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True the quick smoke helps with that, though most often they just drop a fighter on it and let the team deal with the DD once the smoke fades or you leave. And then her lack of AA is really a problem as you cant do much against he fighters.

And because of the lack of punching power I tend to play them around spotting, objectives and countering other DDs. In these roles a CV can really mess with you, even by just zoning you out or constant harassment. So some AA would be nice but this DD has almost none.

18 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

Maybe it's time to step outside and go for a walk.  Bad games are bad games but, in my 5 year of WoWs, I have never been "so salty its unbelievable". 

Maybe I exaggerated a little, but yeah after those games I just quit for the day or take a break and do other stuff. Overall I think it has more to do with how much fun I was having in some games and how unfun the others were, compared to the rest of the game. Still my question stands, is Cossack still viable or powercrept/ obsolete in the current state-of-the-game?

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The thing that I hate most on the Cossack is the torp angles.  They are terrible.  If you are forced to use them on someone pushing your smoke, you have to be almost full broadside.

Other than that a great boat.  Excellent concealment, great guns and the batman smokes to get away.

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8 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

True the quick smoke helps with that, though most often they just drop a fighter on it and let the team deal with the DD once the smoke fades or you leave. And then her lack of AA is really a problem as you cant do much against he fighters.

And because of the lack of punching power I tend to play them around spotting, objectives and countering other DDs. In these roles a CV can really mess with you, even by just zoning you out or constant harassment. So some AA would be nice but this DD has almost none.

Maybe I exaggerated a little, but yeah after those games I just quit for the day or take a break and do other stuff. Overall I think it has more to do with how much fun I was having in some games and how unfun the others were, compared to the rest of the game. Still my question stands, is Cossack still viable or powercrept/ obsolete in the current state-of-the-game?

Not sure about your play style, but I would use terrains as my main source of cover when CVs are around, so I could use Cossack's speed to sail behind an island right after my smoke expires (CV's fighter consumable lasts 60 seconds when Cossack's smoke lasts 40, so you only need to take cover behind an island for 20 seconds). If it's a standard battle, great, freestyle. If it's a domination battle, use caps as traps and move around islands to spot red DDs for your team.

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1 hour ago, Meta_Man said:

In my eyes the biggest problem with hwr isn't the AA because you have those nice quick smokes is her lack of a deletion factor....the 4 torps isn't enough to kill  BBs a lot of the time....she is great against dds but fails agai st most other things..

This is the same problem that all DDs having only one torp launcher have, unless they're IJN and have a torp reload booster.  Of course, you could also have a Z-35, which has two torp launchers ... which use really crappy 6 km torps at a tier where 8 km really doesn't cut it, unless they're IJN F3's and you're a pretty ballsy DD player.

The Cossack and Kidd are pretty much boned in a late game situation where they need torps to sink enemy heavies.  And they're really boned if they have no one spotting for them, because then they have no choice but to open water gunboat.

I guess that this is just a decision one has to make when one is deciding whether or not to buy a Cossack (or Kidd).

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1 hour ago, Crucis said:

This is the same problem that all DDs having only one torp launcher have, unless they're IJN and have a torp reload booster.  Of course, you could also have a Z-35, which has two torp launchers ... which use really crappy 6 km torps at a tier where 8 km really doesn't cut it, unless they're IJN F3's and you're a pretty ballsy DD player.

The Cossack and Kidd are pretty much boned in a late game situation where they need torps to sink enemy heavies.  And they're really boned if they have no one spotting for them, because then they have no choice but to open water gunboat.

I guess that this is just a decision one has to make when one is deciding whether or not to buy a Cossack (or Kidd).

Torps only really help in certain situations and even then your hit rates are so low you cant depend on them for these ships.  Average hit rate is what 7 to 10 percent.  These ships you knockout the enemy dd and then rain fire on any thing close.

I average the exact same damage on my Fletcher as I do my Kidd, 43k.  You just use the tools you have.  They are two of my favorite DDs with a 70 and 65% win rates.

Late game most DDs are gonna struggle because any captain with half a brain will know to start maneuvering.  The exception being Benham that can create it's own cross drops almost.

Edited by Wanturskul

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It's impossible to have discussions of viability as long as CVs remain in the game in their horribly broken state.  WG needs to fix it before everybody quits. I keep hearing and seeing the same nonsense in my games over and over.  It's not fun. CVs still aren't interesting and engaging.  They just do free asymmetric damage. Some ships are just crapout of luck if there's a CV in the game.  Hugging your teammates all game for AA protection for 20 minutes, unable to actually push or make any moves is NOT FUN gameplay. 

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4 hours ago, shinytrashcan said:

I would be ok with this, but why is WG giving out a rental for a ship that is basically obsolete in the CV heavy meta?

you have things the wrong way round.
Cossack does very well in the CV meta because she can spam smoke, on demand, to evade air attacks & negate CV spotting. She can be tricky to play, because she has a very large toolset for a t8 dd, and so there are many things to think about. 3 days rental is probably insufficient to get the best out of her, and of course, in 3 days you won't have a 19pt captain in her.

Most dd players are shy/reluctant to use smoke to evade air attacks, because of the long cds on  their limited smoke consumeables, but Cossack gets up to 7 smokes consumeables, with a cd between fresh smokes that is so short you can pass from one smoke to another, with barely a pause. 

Edited by hateboat

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If Cossack had great AA it would be opaf. The ship has great concealment, great smoke, hydro, great HE DPM, spamable torps. It's only weaknesses are trash AA, trash AP pen, low number of torps.

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41 minutes ago, Laser_Beam said:
  • gets something for free.
  • complains about it

Touché, I should not be ungrateful, after all it is free. On the other hand, this is the internet, what did you expect? :Smile_popcorn:

First of all, thank you all for the replies. I had the chance to play a few more games in Cossack and I have to say that my earlier questions are probably more related to venting over two particularly frustrating games with CVs in her. Yes, AA is trash and a good CV or T10 CV will dumpster you, but then again in T6-8 MM with no radars this thing is brutal against other DDs, but also BBs and Cruisers since the concealment is god tier and the RN smoke allow you to farm in short bursts. Against lower tier BBs even open water gunboating works well.

I don't mind the torpedoes that much anymore, the reload is pretty quick (66s) so you can spam them a lot. Admittedly, I am quite stingy with smokes against planes, maybe I need to adjust my playstyle a bit. My rental expires in ca. 24h so I will have time to play her a bit more tomorrow and maybe I'll change my mind.

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3 hours ago, Crucis said:

This is the same problem that all DDs having only one torp launcher have, unless they're IJN and have a torp reload booster.  Of course, you could also have a Z-35, which has two torp launchers ... which use really crappy 6 km torps at a tier where 8 km really doesn't cut it, unless they're IJN F3's and you're a pretty ballsy DD player.

The Cossack and Kidd are pretty much boned in a late game situation where they need torps to sink enemy heavies.  And they're really boned if they have no one spotting for them, because then they have no choice but to open water gunboat.

I guess that this is just a decision one has to make when one is deciding whether or not to buy a Cossack (or Kidd).

I remember that talk about Kidd when she first came out.  It was an interesting discussion to see.

 

Personally when I saw Kidds on my team, I liked them because they tended to last a good while.  DD life expectancy is on average real short.  But if you needed a DD to torp the sh*t out of someone, well, best look for someone else unless Kidd got real lucky.  That single launcher was almost useless.  Even worse it had a pretty bad spread.

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The game is a seesaw now, it's either soaring to victory or slamming into the ground in a fast defeat. It wasn't always this way...

The player base has changed over several times, and as wargaming is terrible with tutorials (the game didn't have one for years), none of the valuable

lessons were ever carried over to new players. Good play like angling, kiting, using terrain, knowing overmatch and armor are not readily apparent from just playing the game. 

All you see as a novice is ships shooting, and for some reason you instantly die to ships. Many players associate this death with pay to win, instead of player skill, as the core mechanics of the game are not explained.

 

Players either learn on their own by researching online, or they just keep playing the same way, but more cowardly and "safer" without ever understanding the core game mechanics.

That's how you wind up with 35% win rate yamato players. Why don't they fix this? Simply put, players who think they are losing because of their ship spend money on premium ships because

they think it will fix their disadvantage in combat.

 

The game is 5 years old, and is obviously in the decline phase. No game lasts 10+ years on terrible mechanics like it has right now. Over the past 5 years, the EU and NA severs have grown a tiny bit. The Russian server is in heavy decline.

Kitakami is returning, which is the holy grail of cash cows. When you see Missouri return, (Missouri 45 or some nonsense) then the game will be in full on cash cow mode. After all the big fruit have been picked (Tone, Kitakami, Missouri)

the game will just slowly be killed off once "World of warships 2" is announced and you get to buy the same content all over again.

 

 

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6 hours ago, shinytrashcan said:

My impressions so far are divided, very much so. First of, I like RN DDs and Cossack fits right in the style with good agility, hydro and short burst smoke. The guns take a bit to get used to but once you got it are really good. And if she is not bottom tier she can be very nasty indeed. However, her obvious weakness is just killing it for me: virtually no AA. She has no high caliber AA, top range of AA is 2.5km (at least makes toggling AA unnecessary) and the worst part is: they all know it.

So far in the few games I had her I think I was in a non-CV game twice. The rest was T10 or T8 CVs, both of which can just eat you alive if they want. So you have to play careful and at long range, which she is not designed to do. In the current meta this ship is really hit or miss, and the question whether I will enjoy playing her depends primarily on the presence of a single other ship. I would be ok with this, but why is WG giving out a rental for a ship that is basically obsolete in the CV heavy meta?

Cossack is one of the absolute best tier 8 DD's against CV's.  She has excellent air concealment, good speed, is very agile with great acceleration, and she has the best counter-CV smoke in the game.  If I had to pick a tier 8 DD to play against CV's, it would be Cossack.

Not only that, but she is a superb ship.  Her dpm is excellent, her torps are a pleasure to use, her concealment, smokes, and agility are all incredibly good.  She (along with Lightning) is one of the best tier 8 DD's.

 

On a slightly related note, I'm doing a model of Cossack atm:

DSC_0321.thumb.JPG.8694803fb1e90fddf94a3666e23492da.JPG

The model was super inaccurate, so a heap of it is scratch built, including the entire aft superstructure, a lot of the bridge area, both gun shields, most of the central AA platform, both masts, a fair bit of the torp launcher, and much of the bow area.  She's been a lot of fun to build, and I'll be starting the main battery and AA soon, once I've finished the ship's boats.  She's in the configuration she was when sunk by U-563 in October 1941.  Here she is after the torpedo hit:

1038531863_Cossacksinking2.JPG.dee3b3fa912c3f6db52479afa2fe868c.JPG

They tried to tow her back to Gibraltar, but she sunk a couple of days later when the weather worsened.

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4 hours ago, Falran said:

It's impossible to have discussions of viability as long as CVs remain in the game in their horribly broken state.  WG needs to fix it before everybody quits. I keep hearing and seeing the same nonsense in my games over and over.  It's not fun. CVs still aren't interesting and engaging.  They just do free asymmetric damage. Some ships are just crapout of luck if there's a CV in the game.  Hugging your teammates all game for AA protection for 20 minutes, unable to actually push or make any moves is NOT FUN gameplay. 

:fish_sleep:

Either you don't understand how to play destroyers in a CV meta or you are flat-out lying about your game experience. I just finished grinding two DD lines to Tier 10 (UK, IJN Torp) and had nowhere near the problems you and others are describing. Not every game has CV, not every CV game has the carrier concentrating on you, and not every CV game has a CV driver who can actually hinder you in a meaningful fashion.

If your expectation is to go out every game and stealthily torp everything in the back to come home with Kraken, High Calibre and Confederate, you're bound to be disappointed.

Nor are carriers completely immune. I've seen them sunk, and helped sink them, mid game. Please stop perpetuating that lie.

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I got the Cossack for free some time ago but not being a DD main I only play her in co-op to complete missions. As I recall I have a 14 point commander on her and thought highly of the ship but again, co-op isn't randoms. With that being said Cossack has really good dpm, get out of jail smoke, fast reloading torpedoes, and solid concealment; looks like a good ship to me. 

My opinions of rentals is the same as in WOT: they're trying to get you to buy the vehicle you're renting for free. If they were smart they'd offer a discount to the people renting the ship as an incentive. I wish they'd do that with every new ship they'd release, of course then every match would be filled with rental ships being captained by people that had no idea what they were doing with the boats. I recall situations like that in WOT and was hilarious to a point. 

 Rental ship, how to get? - General Game Discussion - World of Warships  official forum

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6 hours ago, Crucis said:

This is the same problem that all DDs having only one torp launcher have, unless they're IJN and have a torp reload booster.  Of course, you could also have a Z-35, which has two torp launchers ... which use really crappy 6 km torps at a tier where 8 km really doesn't cut it, unless they're IJN F3's and you're a pretty ballsy DD player.

The Cossack and Kidd are pretty much boned in a late game situation where they need torps to sink enemy heavies.  And they're really boned if they have no one spotting for them, because then they have no choice but to open water gunboat.

I guess that this is just a decision one has to make when one is deciding whether or not to buy a Cossack (or Kidd).

all 3 of these boats are different and I definitely understand the Kidds 1 torp set,heal is huge,her DFAA is huge....the z35 has a unique bag of tricks also....But the Cossack is a little tougher to solve. She has great knife fighting skills, i have a video on my channel Meta_Man2002 showing how I play her , (how to increase your winrate as a dd player)...hope this gives you some ideas

 

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Cossack is fantastic VS CVs. You have that amazing british smoke so that they can never strike you. It's like the whole reason for playing british DDs. Yeah, you aren't going to shoot any planes down, but thats not really the point of most DDs. I ranked out with her last season and laughed at all the CVs. 

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2 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

Cossack is one of the absolute best tier 8 DD's against CV's.  She has excellent air concealment, good speed, is very agile with great acceleration, and she has the best counter-CV smoke in the game.  If I had to pick a tier 8 DD to play against CV's, it would be Cossack.

Not only that, but she is a superb ship.  Her dpm is excellent, her torps are a pleasure to use, her concealment, smokes, and agility are all incredibly good.  She (along with Lightning) is one of the best tier 8 DD's.

 

On a slightly related note, I'm doing a model of Cossack atm:

DSC_0321.thumb.JPG.8694803fb1e90fddf94a3666e23492da.JPG

The model was super inaccurate, so a heap of it is scratch built, including the entire aft superstructure, a lot of the bridge area, both gun shields, most of the central AA platform, both masts, a fair bit of the torp launcher, and much of the bow area.  She's been a lot of fun to build, and I'll be starting the main battery and AA soon, once I've finished the ship's boats.  She's in the configuration she was when sunk by U-563 in October 1941.  Here she is after the torpedo hit:

1038531863_Cossacksinking2.JPG.dee3b3fa912c3f6db52479afa2fe868c.JPG

They tried to tow her back to Gibraltar, but she sunk a couple of days later when the weather worsened.

 

Off topic, but that is pretty good start to that model. I built a few when I was a kid, but haven't in years. I keep thinking I want to try again, but then I remember I have no time, and A.D.D. lol. 

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I like Cossack and I'd agree with others that the weak AA doesn't matter and that stealth and 6x smokes on a short cooldown is a generally better solution.

There's very little 'good' destroyer AA anyway, and given almost none (Halland vs. a bad T8 carrier being the exception) will stop the first wave AA can't protect you from that. The vast majority of AA will kill 0.2 planes per strike so doubling, trebling, quadrupling it - still completely worthless.

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Cossack is tier for tier one of the best DDs in the game. Amazing stealth, great gun dpm, only four torps, but they reload fast, do good damage, and have great range for her tier. On top of that, she has all the benefits of being an RN DD while also getting speed boost. So she's already amazing as is. Giving her great AA as well would have made her very OP.

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As others have said, Cossack's defenses against CVs are smoke and maneuverability, not the couple of drunk sailors throwing rocks from the mast.

Also, Cossack is better off than Kidd in that the torp launcher reloads really fast, and also has a single fire option, which can definitely come in handy.

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