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otakuben

For your consideration: Premium Tier 6 Japanese Destroyer Matsu

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So here we are with another proposal. This time for a Japanese destroyer. But this wouldn't be just any destroyer, this would go along with the feel of the fast firing Japanese destroyer line in terms of feel and capability. It has it's own quirks and weaknesses.

 

The Ship

The Matsu was originally built in 1943 as a Destroyer Escort but was bigger than you average Destroyer Escort. The Japanese government saw a great need for these ships and initially placed an order for over 80 of them but only a couple dozen would ever be built. They took part in the waning years of the war and all would either be sunk or captured. 

izBH06S.gif

 

 

The Stats

This is gonna be rather fast because Japanese destroyers are a dime a dozen and I think this would fit nicely at a tier where it could be interesting and different.

Premium Tier 6 Japanese Destroyer Matsu

Hitpoints - 11,000

Price - $19.80 or 5000 doubloons

This is about average for the tier, maybe a bit lower. The Matsu was roughly the same size of the Minekaze and the Minekaze at tier 5 has 10,900 hit points as it's highest hit points.

 

Main Battery

12.7 cm/40 Type 89 naval gun - 1x2, 1x1

Rate of Fire - 14 shots/min

Reload Time - 4.2 sec

Rotation Speed - 10 deg/sec

180 Degree Turn Time - 18 sec

Firing Range - 12km

Maximum Shell Dispersion - 100m

HE Shell - 127mm HE Type 1

Maximum HE Shell Damage - 2,150

Chance of Fire on Target Caused by HE Shell - 9%

Initial HE Shell Velocity - 725 m/s

HE Shell Weight - 23 kg

AP Shell - 127mm AP Type 0

Maximum AP Shell Damage - 2,200

Initial AP Shell Velocity - 725 m/s

AP Shell Weight - 23 kg

So here is the main highlight of this ship. The guns fire incredibly fast. Putting out nearly 93,000 damage per minute which is 150% fast than any other tier 6 Japanese Destroyer. However this also puts he still much lower than other nations ships of the same tier.

 

Torpedo Tubes

610mm Quadruple - 1x4

Rate of Fire - 90 sec

Rotation Speed - 25 deg/sec

180 Degree Turn Time - 7.2 sec

Torpedo - Type 93 Mod. 1

Maximum Damage - 17,233

Torpedo Speed - 62 knots

Torpedo Range - 10 km

The Tier 8 Battleship Kii's torps but you only have 4 and you have it's bad reload.

 

 

AA Defense

25mm Type 96 AA Guns - 36x1

Average Damage per Second - 48.6

Firing Range - 2.49

AA is nothing to write home about but still not bad.

 

Maneuverability

Maximum Speed - 32 knots

Turning Circle Radius - 550m

Rudder Shift Time - 3.2 sec

This would be this ships biggest Achilles heel. It's not the fastest (1 knot slower than the Akizuki) and it's turning radius is okay.

 

Concealment

Surface Detectability Range - 6.2km

Air Detectability Range - 2.5km

It does have good concealment compared to the other Japanese ships at this tier. But since it's the size of Minekaze it makes sense.

 

Consumables

Damage Control

Smoke Generator

Engine Boost

 

Upgrades

4 slots

 

Everything else is standard. 

 

The Final Rundown

The ship is pretty straightforward. Meh speed with fast guns for the tier, okay torps, good concealment and everything else good about Japanese ships. You only have 3 guns but with a 4 second reload it will feel like 6. Ir's biggest boost will come from the continuous rain of fire you will be unloading on the enemy and how low you can potentially bring than with upgrades and commander boosts.

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GROSSLY UNDERPOWERED FOR IT'S TIER 6 PLACEMENT (There is a reason DEs are not in the game)

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24 minutes ago, Umikami said:

GROSSLY UNDERPOWERED FOR IT'S TIER 6 PLACEMENT (There is a reason DEs are not in the game)

How so? Also it's a DE in name only as it was actually a full sized destroyer that was slightly bigger than the minekaze.

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1 hour ago, otakuben said:

How so? Also it's a DE in name only as it was actually a full sized destroyer that was slightly bigger than the minekaze.

3 main guns, when ships from tier 4 and up all sport at least 4 guns per ship. And a 4+second reload sux with only 3 guns.

Only one torpedo launcher, with only 4 torps. And a slow reload. A Fujin, at tier 5, gets 6 torps which can be reloaded in around 40 seconds.

It has slow speed and "meh" concealment for an IJN torp boat.

Plus, your HP pool is way high, equal to a full sized DD. HP is based on tonnage, this has little.

6 hours ago, otakuben said:

Meh speed with fast guns for the tier, okay torps, good concealment and everything else good about Japanese ships.

Torps and concealment ARE the only good things about an IJN torp boat. The speed is not "meh", it's poor; and the guns are not fast, they're "meh".

6 hours ago, otakuben said:

You only have 3 guns but with a 4 second reload it will feel like 6.

No, it will feel like 3, and you'll be chanting "hurry up hurry up hurry up" under your breath for 3 seconds every time you have to fire them.

 

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22 minutes ago, Umikami said:

3 main guns, when ships from tier 4 and up all sport at least 4 guns per ship. And a 4+second reload sux with only 3 guns.

Only one torpedo launcher, with only 4 torps. And a slow reload. A Fujin, at tier 5, gets 6 torps which can be reloaded in around 40 seconds.

It has slow speed and "meh" concealment for an IJN torp boat.

Plus, your HP pool is way high, equal to a full sized DD. HP is based on tonnage, this has little.

Torps and concealment ARE the only good things about an IJN torp boat. The speed is not "meh", it's poor; and the guns are not fast, they're "meh".

No, it will feel like 3, and you'll be chanting "hurry up hurry up hurry up" under your breath for 3 seconds every time you have to fire them.

 

 

Okay addressing each one. This is a tier 6 ship so comparing it to tier 6 ships of the same nation is what is required. It's irrelevant if it's worse than tier 7 or 8 or 9 because it is supposed to be worse than those.

So comparing against tier 6 ships of the same class and nation:

Guns - it has 1 barrel less. That's it, 1 barrel.

Rate of Fire - It fires twice as fast as the other Japanese destroyers of the same tier putting out 150% more damage with 3 guns than they can with four. Your point is absolutely moot in this regard. It is fast firing and no Japanese Torp boat or gun boat gets that level of RoF until tier 8 and even then it's with 100mm guns not 127mm.

Speed - it is 3 to 4 knots slower than the other Japanese tier 6 destroyers. Not 10 or 15. 3 to 4. That is not a large gap. In fact at tier 8 we have a Japanese destroyer that has a top speed of only 33 knots.

Concealment - This boat is 6.2 (Minekaze Level). Hatsuharu is 6.66, Fubuki is 7.02, Shinonome is 7.02. So it outclasses their concealment almost by a decent margin.

Torpedos - Are supposed to be a weaker point on what is a gun boat, not a torp boat. You do realize that the difference between the two lines is one is a gun boat line and the other is a torp boat line right? So on this GUN BOAT that does WAY more damage, has better concealment the torps are the second biggest weak spot. Hatsuharu does 87,600 damage with a 73 second reload, Fubuki does 131400 damage with a 73 second reload, Shinonome does 131400 damage with a 73 second reload. This does 68932 damage with a 90 second reload. But again this is not a Torp boat, it's a gun boat and it outguns any other Japanese Destroyer by a LARGE MARGIN. The torpedo's are nice and can be useful but are not it's highlight.

 

This Japanese Destroyer is basically what a Japanese gunboat would be at this tier. A fast firing gun boat with decent torps that can either outgun every other destroyer in HE or match or come close to other non Japanese destroyers in AP. It will outright out perform every Japanese destroyer period.

 

Edit: There are exactly 2 destroyers it can't out DPS at tier 6 with HE. French and US. Both of which are nations that are known dedicated gun boat trees and have much worse torps.

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57 minutes ago, otakuben said:

Guns - it has 1 barrel less. That's it, 1 barrel.

Rate of Fire - It fires twice as fast as the other Japanese destroyers of the same tier putting out 150% more damage with 3 guns than they can with four. Your point is absolutely moot in this regard. It is fast firing and no Japanese Torp boat or gun boat gets that level of RoF until tier 8 and even then it's with 100mm guns not 127mm.

Hatsu and Fubuki get 4 guns; Shinonome (the OTHER premium) gets 6. And as for your mythical ROF, look at Fubuki's guns and Shinonome's guns and you'll see they're the same (because Shinonome is a Fubuki class DD). You'll also see that Shinonome's ROF has been artificially nerfed to make sure it has the same DPM as Fubuki. WG will gut your fantasy ROF for an IJN one, like they have every other torp boat.

1 hour ago, otakuben said:

Speed - it is 3 to 4 knots slower than the other Japanese tier 6 destroyers. Not 10 or 15. 3 to 4. That is not a large gap. In fact at tier 8 we have a Japanese destroyer that has a top speed of only 33 knots.

You are WAY wrong about this, especially for a torp boat. First, that 3 to 4 knots is 105 or better of your top speed, and 32 knots means this ship will get run down by every other DD it sees (including all those nasty ones which really do have 4 second reloads) and quite a few cruisers. 32 knot top speed for a DD is a bad joke.

1 hour ago, otakuben said:

Torpedos - Are supposed to be a weaker point on what is a gun boat, not a torp boat. You do realize that the difference between the two lines is one is a gun boat line and the other is a torp boat line right? So on this GUN BOAT that does WAY more damage, has better concealment the torps are the second biggest weak spot. Hatsuharu does 87,600 damage with a 73 second reload, Fubuki does 131400 damage with a 73 second reload, Shinonome does 131400 damage with a 73 second reload. This does 68932 damage with a 90 second reload. But again this is not a Torp boat, it's a gun boat and it outguns any other Japanese Destroyer by a LARGE MARGIN. The torpedo's are nice and can be useful but are not it's highlight.

If you think that three gunned folly is a gunboat you're sadly mistaken; It's not even strong for a DE. And automatically giving it the top of the ROF range is hilarious.

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I think it's a little over-tiered, but 14 RPM was the burst value for the guns, though 8 sustained, so 14 is reasonable. Thanks to the Japanese high damage HE that does produce a decent DPM number, but the downside is really terrible ballistics - these are /40 caliber guns with a 725ms muzzle velocity (the US 5in/38 manages 792). 

The torpedo armament is weak, but at least it's 10km range. 

Historically I'm not sure where 32kt is coming from, looks like it should be 27.8kt. At that speed it is a pretty significant drawback to combat in WOWS, and does really put her in a league of her own mid tier, poor to position, slow to chase, hobbled when running. 

The Matsu's are certainly among the most powerful, if not the most powerful surface combatants of Hunt class, but I think T6 is too much.

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1 hour ago, Umikami said:

Hatsu and Fubuki get 4 guns; Shinonome (the OTHER premium) gets 6. And as for your mythical ROF, look at Fubuki's guns and Shinonome's guns and you'll see they're the same (because Shinonome is a Fubuki class DD). You'll also see that Shinonome's ROF has been artificially nerfed to make sure it has the same DPM as Fubuki. WG will gut your fantasy ROF for an IJN one, like they have every other torp boat.

You are WAY wrong about this, especially for a torp boat. First, that 3 to 4 knots is 105 or better of your top speed, and 32 knots means this ship will get run down by every other DD it sees (including all those nasty ones which really do have 4 second reloads) and quite a few cruisers. 32 knot top speed for a DD is a bad joke.

If you think that three gunned folly is a gunboat you're sadly mistaken; It's not even strong for a DE. And automatically giving it the top of the ROF range is hilarious.

I think you seriously lack any capability to properly evaluate ships in this game on any logical level. 

 

Your first argument is that the RoF is mythical while pointing out later that the RoF is it's actual top capability. You also claim WG will gut it which shows that you have no intention to think logically but rather emotionally because you are obviously mad at WG for whatever reason.

 

Secondly you say 32 knots is a bad joke but ignore my point that we have a DD with a 33 knot top speed at tier 8.

Third you keep calling it a torpboat which it clearly isn't meant to be. 

 

Please stop replying because you refuse to consider anything objectively and it's becoming more obvious that this is the case.

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4 minutes ago, mofton said:

I think it's a little over-tiered, but 14 RPM was the burst value for the guns, though 8 sustained, so 14 is reasonable. Thanks to the Japanese high damage HE that does produce a decent DPM number, but the downside is really terrible ballistics - these are /40 caliber guns with a 725ms muzzle velocity (the US 5in/38 manages 792). 

The torpedo armament is weak, but at least it's 10km range. 

Historically I'm not sure where 32kt is coming from, looks like it should be 27.8kt. At that speed it is a pretty significant drawback to combat in WOWS, and does really put her in a league of her own mid tier, poor to position, slow to chase, hobbled when running. 

The Matsu's are certainly among the most powerful, if not the most powerful surface combatants of Hunt class, but I think T6 is too much.

I found another source that said 32 knots so I kind of went with it believing WG would fudge the numbers for balance sake. 

 

I was worried that it may be a bit overtiered and considered pushing the DPM down a bit and pushing the ship to tier 5. Maybe like 11 rpm for tier 5.

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19 minutes ago, otakuben said:

I found another source that said 32 knots so I kind of went with it believing WG would fudge the numbers for balance sake. 

 

I was worried that it may be a bit overtiered and considered pushing the DPM down a bit and pushing the ship to tier 5. Maybe like 11 rpm for tier 5.

I think T5 might be more comfortable, though it's less attractive to WG.

My view on the speed is that a 'Destroyer Escort' is meant to be slow, that's the whole point of them over regular destroyers, cheaper machinery, slower, intended to escort not sprint into torpedo launching position. If you completely de-emphasize that it seems pointless to add them for variety, they're just slightly different destroyers (32kt to Fubuki 34kt). 

19,000 SHP compares to the 34,000 SHP a similarly sized British A class destroyer needed for 35kt. I think 28kt is pretty realistic. 

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5 minutes ago, mofton said:

I think T5 might be more comfortable, though it's less attractive to WG.

My view on the speed is that a 'Destroyer Escort' is meant to be slow, that's the whole point of them over regular destroyers, cheaper machinery, slower, intended to escort not sprint into torpedo launching position. If you completely de-emphasize that it seems pointless to add them for variety, they're just slightly different destroyers (32kt to Fubuki 34kt). 

19,000 SHP compares to the 34,000 SHP a similarly sized British A class destroyer needed for 35kt. I think 28kt is pretty realistic. 

Do we have a dedicated tier 5 destroyer for Japan? I mean there's the Kamikaze but it's not for sale anymore.

The idea was to have a Japanese gun boat at the mid tiers but I fear with a 28 knot speed it would be too slow even for tier 5.

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13 minutes ago, otakuben said:

Do we have a dedicated tier 5 destroyer for Japan? I mean there's the Kamikaze but it's not for sale anymore.

The idea was to have a Japanese gun boat at the mid tiers but I fear with a 28 knot speed it would be too slow even for tier 5.

There isn't a sellable T5 since Kamikaze was withdrawn, but WG likes higher over lower tiers. 

The problem with a destroyer escort is that it doesn't really fit the game, and if you change the stats to make it fit it's no longer a destroyer escort, so what's the point?

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12 minutes ago, mofton said:

There isn't a sellable T5 since Kamikaze was withdrawn, but WG likes higher over lower tiers. 

The problem with a destroyer escort is that it doesn't really fit the game, and if you change the stats to make it fit it's no longer a destroyer escort, so what's the point?

I get that but I think this ship would be fair, unique compared to the other japanese tier 6's, fit well as a gunboat, and give the lower tier japanese ships a much needed different style of play. If a 32knot vs 28knot trade off is the change then so be it. It's not the end of the world and not the first time WG has artificially changed aspects of ships to better suit game balance and mechanics.

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2 hours ago, otakuben said:

Your first argument is that the RoF is mythical while pointing out later that the RoF is it's actual top capability. You also claim WG will gut it which shows that you have no intention to think logically but rather emotionally because you are obviously mad at WG for whatever reason.

I have 10 times your battles and have played this game since closed Beta; I think I have a better handle on how WG does things than you do.

2 hours ago, otakuben said:

Secondly you say 32 knots is a bad joke but ignore my point that we have a DD with a 33 knot top speed at tier 8.

Have you ever played an Akizuki? (the question is rhetorical, I know you haven't) Because if you haven't played one then you have no idea how big of a deal that speed is. You're a battleship main who does well in 2, yes 2, different DDs (in the rest of them you really stink, or have less than 5 games so the stats don't count). And I'm being generous counting Sims because you only have 8 games in her. So really, the ONLY DD you have ANY experience in is Minikaze and then it's just 17 matches. You know nothing about DD play, and even less about gunboat DD play. Go play a dozen matches in a 33 knot DD; then go play a dozen more, and you can start to have an opinion, because all you're doing now is guessing.

2 hours ago, otakuben said:

Third you keep calling it a torpboat which it clearly isn't meant to be. 

Well, with three guns, and a 32 knot top speed, at tier 6, it will NEVER be a gunboat!

2 hours ago, otakuben said:

Please stop replying because you refuse to consider anything objectively and it's becoming more obvious that this is the case.

I have a much more objective view of this than you do; I have actually played gunboat DDs, both IJN and Russian and French. So I think I'll reply to any post I choose to reply to.

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With the introduction of submarines, I wonder if we will see heavy ASW (and possibly AA) destroyers, with limited surface capabilities.

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2 hours ago, HamptonRoads said:

With the introduction of submarines, I wonder if we will see heavy ASW (and possibly AA) destroyers, with limited surface capabilities.

I doubt it.

All destroyers will need decent ASW, and there's then little advantage to be had. Plus just being faster is an anti-submarine advantage. 

Then there are problems of matchmaking. What do you do as an ASW ship if there's only one red submarine? Or if that submarine spawns on the opposite flank and then gets killed by someone else? 

ASW ships don't make much sense. 

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Give it a 4th consumable slot with a Torpedo Reload Booster and it should be fine in Tier 6 (like Monaghan).

Or instead swap out the Engine Boost Consumable with Torpedo Reload Booster and give this ship British DD like speed.

Edited by LordHood2552

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On 9/22/2020 at 1:04 PM, LordHood2552 said:

Give it a 4th consumable slot with a Torpedo Reload Booster and it should be fine in Tier 6 (like Monaghan).

Or instead swap out the Engine Boost Consumable with Torpedo Reload Booster and give this ship British DD like speed.

Glad you think so. I agree it;s fairly balanced all things considered when you factor in reload speed etc. Maybe a 4th slot boost would be okay, especially since it has only 1 torpedo launcher.

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On 9/20/2020 at 1:24 PM, Umikami said:

I have 10 times your battles and have played this game since closed Beta; I think I have a better handle on how WG does things than you do.

Have you ever played an Akizuki? (the question is rhetorical, I know you haven't) Because if you haven't played one then you have no idea how big of a deal that speed is. You're a battleship main who does well in 2, yes 2, different DDs (in the rest of them you really stink, or have less than 5 games so the stats don't count). And I'm being generous counting Sims because you only have 8 games in her. So really, the ONLY DD you have ANY experience in is Minikaze and then it's just 17 matches. You know nothing about DD play, and even less about gunboat DD play. Go play a dozen matches in a 33 knot DD; then go play a dozen more, and you can start to have an opinion, because all you're doing now is guessing.

Well, with three guns, and a 32 knot top speed, at tier 6, it will NEVER be a gunboat!

I have a much more objective view of this than you do; I have actually played gunboat DDs, both IJN and Russian and French. So I think I'll reply to any post I choose to reply to.

I think amount of game played does not suddenly equal a great understanding of what makes or doesn't make a good ship. You are welcome to disagree and having people disagree gives perspective. But when you are trying to claim such inequalities in a ship that actually is no worse or better than many ships in game then I question your ability to view these things objectively.

Also welcome to the closed beta club? I've been playing since the very start of closed beta and even early alpha access beta weekends. The first line I got to tier 10 on both in the current release and closed beta was the Japanese DD line.

 

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36 minutes ago, otakuben said:

But when you are trying to claim such inequalities in a ship that actually is no worse or better than many ships in game then I question your ability to view these things objectively.

You're a BB main who got very lucky with a few DDs, and very unlucky with some too. You don't have 30 battles in ANY DD, so your opinion is meaningless. You literally do not know what you are talking about. I have 5 times the battles just in DDs as you do in everything; I have 5 times the battles in just Nicholas as you do in all your DDs combined; do not think to tell me what will and will not work for a destroyer in the game because I know and you are dreaming. If that ship was added it would be a joke.

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45 minutes ago, Umikami said:

You're a BB main who got very lucky with a few DDs, and very unlucky with some too. You don't have 30 battles in ANY DD, so your opinion is meaningless. You literally do not know what you are talking about. I have 5 times the battles just in DDs as you do in everything; I have 5 times the battles in just Nicholas as you do in all your DDs combined; do not think to tell me what will and will not work for a destroyer in the game because I know and you are dreaming. If that ship was added it would be a joke.

I guess the difference is a ship I suggested actually made it into the game.

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4 minutes ago, otakuben said:

I guess the difference is a ship I suggested actually made it into the game.

And which ship might that be?

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2 minutes ago, Umikami said:

And which ship might that be?

The Kamikaze. Though apparently removed it later and occasionally sell it through containers.

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7 minutes ago, otakuben said:

The Kamikaze. Though apparently removed it later and occasionally sell it through containers.

Please, the Kami is a clone of the Fujin, introduced the first halloween the game was live.

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8 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Please, the Kami is a clone of the Fujin, introduced the first halloween the game was live.

The original suggestion I made for the Kamikaze was a joke thread.

Made early april of 2015. People were screaming about wanting Kamikaze planes on carriers so I made a stupid joke thread about to get Kamikaze's in game. It was a good laugh but ultimately superfluous. However because some thought the ship looked neat I proposed a serious suggestion for it in Mid April of 2015.

 

 

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