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Where are the Mid Tier IJN Premium DD's?

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I know the IJN tech tree has a lot of DD's but the premiums seem to enter the game for a brief moment and are no longer available. ?? How about a couple mid tier premium IJN DD's (V, VI, VII) that actually remain accessible in the game. Yes, I am aware of the T6 Shininome.  Lots of historical ships available for new ones or just make previous ones available every so often.  While your considering that there seems to be a shortage of IJN commanders in the armory as compared to other nations that could use some consideration as well. Plenty of options for other line DD's. 

Thanks for your consideration.

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Pretty simple actually, they wouldn't be very popular. IJN torp DDs have been meh for a while, and even more so with the CV proliferation. So people aren't going to get very excited about a T6 or T7 IJN DD that's perma spotted every CV game. And if people aren't excited, they're not buying, and WG isn't making money.

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Shigure...   

With special captain:  Hara, Capt. Tameichi  -- special skill:  Torpedoes pass through your destroyer without exploding.

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16 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

Pretty simple actually, they wouldn't be very popular. IJN torp DDs have been meh for a while, and even more so with the CV proliferation. So people aren't going to get very excited about a T6 or T7 IJN DD that's perma spotted every CV game. And if people aren't excited, they're not buying, and WG isn't making money.

How are IJN DDs spotted more than other DDs?

I would have thought if anything they are usually more stealthy and if their torps are reasonable range they can fire them at the enemy with no bloom penalty, as oppose to the guns which would keep them spotted for 20 secs. In fact, they could possibly be able to drop back quicker to the cover of friendly AA (let's face it, there are only a few DDs that have AA worth being confident of anyway).

You hit the nail on the head when you stated they have been made 'meh'. In the end the gunboat DD has mainly brought about the quicker death of it's own ship type in battle, yet the other choice as you state is 'meh'.

If WG made a good torp boat then I'd be more interested in a good IJN DD than I would a gun boat. :Smile_honoring:

Edited by _WaveRider_

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18 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

Pretty simple actually, they wouldn't be very popular. IJN torp DDs have been meh for a while, and even more so with the CV proliferation. So people aren't going to get very excited about a T6 or T7 IJN DD that's perma spotted every CV game. And if people aren't excited, they're not buying, and WG isn't making money.

More to do with some WG choice. Take the Yuudachi: it is a crap and yet got some good sales out of it.

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I love my IJN DDs (the IJN was my first line), but I'd really to start seeing some It RM DDs in game.  And I don't count Leone which apparently has been in development for over a year and was nerfed even before it's been used by the general public.  C'mon WG!  The M1918/19 guns on the Leone class were medium velocity guns (about 800m/s which makes the arcing track arguable) but a 9.5s reload time?  For 120mm guns?  I have no idea what they payload is, but seriously?

Where are the Sellas, Turbines, Maestrales, Soldati, Arietes, Spicas, etc.?  Heck, throw in the Palestros, and you'd have almost enough classes for a full DD tech tree.  The RM was the 4th largest navy in the world at the start of WWII, and we barely any ships atm.

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Before the proposed captain's skill changes, I would have bought a premium mid tier IJN DD.

Now I may not have to.

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24 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

How are IJN DDs spotted more than other DDs?

I would have thought if anything they are usually more stealthy and if their torps are reasonable range they can fire them at the enemy with no bloom penalty, as oppose to the guns which would keep them spotted for 20 secs. In fact, they could possibly be able to drop back quicker to the cover of friendly AA (let's face it, there are only a few DDs that have AA worth being confident of anyway).

You hit the nail on the head when you stated they have been made 'meh'. In the end the gunboat DD has mainly brought about the quicker death of it's own ship type in battle, yet the other choice as you state is 'meh'.

If WG made a good torp boat then I'd be more interested in a good IJN DD than I would a gun boat. :Smile_honoring:

It's not that they're spotted more than other DDs (probably not actually), it's that they rely on not being spotted much more than other DDs. So if all DDs are spotted much more often with CVs, the IJN torp boats suffer the most because stealth is critical for them. They lose gunfights with all other DDs, they have a limited number of long cooldown shortish duration smokes, and rely on torpedo damage which requires you to be unspotted so your victim doesn't dodge. USN DDs have long smokes to hide it, RN DDs have lots of short smokes to hide it, RU and French DDs are meant to open water gunboat anyway, KMS DDs have smoke and the ability to at least kind of fight off other DDs, EU DDs are AA monsters, and IJN gunboats have decent AA and enough firepower to make a lot of cruisers run and hide. But get spotted in a Shima? Everyone instantly dodges and starts shooting at you. Not fun. And relying only on torp damage is not a good thing now when everyone and their brother has hydro or radar. The IJN torpboats were meh for a while, and CVs just made it worse. And now there are quite frankly better torpboats. 12km missiles from EU DDs are probably more worth it than 20km Shima sea mines. They they have scary damage, but you have hit first.

Another thing is torp boats require patience, planning, and good positioning. None of which the average player has. So even if there was a good IJN torp boat, most players wouldn't be able to play it well, and so it wouldn't be popular.

I wouldn't mind a good torp boat. But I don't know that a torpedo focused ship is viable now. And even if it was, most players probably don't have the ability to do well and make it a popular ship.

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7 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

They lose gunfights with all other DDs, they have a limited number of long cooldown shortish duration smokes, and rely on torpedo damage which requires you to be unspotted so your victim doesn't dodge.

Are you talking about the German DD?

8 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

12km missiles from EU DDs are probably more worth it than 20km Shima sea mines. They they have scary damage, but you have hit first.

Well I thought that at first, but the European do have their own flaws: sure their torps are quick but 6 torps a t tier 8 is harsh, when you can run a Kagero and drops 16 fish in the water.

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1 hour ago, AVR_Project said:

Shigure...   

With special captain:  Hara, Capt. Tameichi  -- special skill:  Torpedoes pass through your destroyer without exploding.

+1 for a history buff!

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2 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

More to do with some WG choice. Take the Yuudachi: it is a crap and yet got some good sales out of it.

I agree with this 100000%.  The Yudachi is garbage.  Slow loading guns, weak concealment for an IJN DD, and torpedoes with terrible detection.  The only thing "good" about those torps is their long range, but that's not even close to enough to offset all the downsides.  

The crazy thing is that the Yudachi could be a decent premium DD.  Part of the problem is that the devs have this crazy aversion to using relatively normal torpedoes on IJN premiums.  They feel some need to use fast short ranged ones (Yukikaze) or BB/CV-only DWTs (Asashio) or long range/easy to detect ones (Yudachi).    On the flip side, the Shinonome is a pretty good premium DD at tier 6.  And the Kami/Fujin DDs were pretty good when they were first released, since they were very similar to a fully upgraded Minekaze at the time.  (Not as good in AA, but had the advantage of being use any captain, like any other premium ship.)

They could have turned the Yudachi into something like the Yukikaze, using fast, 8 km torps and allowing her concealment to match the Shiratsuyu.  8 km torps would have been challenging, but manageable.  Or maybe give her Pan-Asian like, 10 or 12 km DWTs.  Heck, even make the crappy torps she currently mounts into BB/CV-only DWTs, like the Asashio's torps, just using the Yudachi's torps' range and other stats.

But the Yudachi as she currently is seems like the Devs did their level best to produce a totally crappy tier 7 premium torpedo DD that's absolutely no fun to play.  Torp DDs aren't any fun if you can't land any torp hits.

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2 hours ago, Y_Nagato said:

Are you talking about the German DD?

Well I thought that at first, but the European do have their own flaws: sure their torps are quick but 6 torps a t tier 8 is harsh, when you can run a Kagero and drops 16 fish in the water.

Another issue that makes EU DDs hard to work with is the rather wimpy payload in their torps.  Earlier this week, I finished a battle in an Öland and got 6 torp hits ... for 33k damage.  I started laughing because I knew if that had been my Kagerō, I'd've had more like 90k damage.  Eu DDs typically take 2-3 torp hits to kill any other DD in their tiers.  That's why they rely so much on a high rate of fire.

IJN torp boats aren't glass cannons - they're megawatt range super laser cannons powered at the end of a 50' extension cord plugged into your mom's kitchen.  They will lose gun battles with most DDs in their tiers, however, patience will gain big rewards.  As others have said, most just don't have the patience for it, but knowing that the maximum payload is something close to 21k per torp definitely helps.

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3 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

How are IJN DDs spotted more than other DDs?

They aren't; but their ability to protect themselves against planes or other ships is much worse because of their poor, single purpose guns with low ROF.

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I like the proposal that has floated around here a few times before.

It's a proposal for a premium (probably) T7 IJN DD, the Hatsuharu-class Nenohi in her as-built configuration. Notable differences from the in-game Hatsuharu are 3x3 triple torp launchers and 1x1 and 2x2 127mm main battery in an A, B, X configuration.

Nenohi_II.jpg

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10 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

It's not that they're spotted more than other DDs (probably not actually), it's that they rely on not being spotted much more than other DDs. So if all DDs are spotted much more often with CVs, the IJN torp boats suffer the most because stealth is critical for them. They lose gunfights with all other DDs, they have a limited number of long cooldown shortish duration smokes, and rely on torpedo damage which requires you to be unspotted so your victim doesn't dodge. USN DDs have long smokes to hide it, RN DDs have lots of short smokes to hide it, RU and French DDs are meant to open water gunboat anyway, KMS DDs have smoke and the ability to at least kind of fight off other DDs, EU DDs are AA monsters, and IJN gunboats have decent AA and enough firepower to make a lot of cruisers run and hide. But get spotted in a Shima? Everyone instantly dodges and starts shooting at you. Not fun. And relying only on torp damage is not a good thing now when everyone and their brother has hydro or radar. The IJN torpboats were meh for a while, and CVs just made it worse. And now there are quite frankly better torpboats. 12km missiles from EU DDs are probably more worth it than 20km Shima sea mines. They they have scary damage, but you have hit first.

Another thing is torp boats require patience, planning, and good positioning. None of which the average player has. So even if there was a good IJN torp boat, most players wouldn't be able to play it well, and so it wouldn't be popular.

I wouldn't mind a good torp boat. But I don't know that a torpedo focused ship is viable now. And even if it was, most players probably don't have the ability to do well and make it a popular ship.

I think I disagree in the thought they rely on not being spotted more - only because the fact they can fire back quickly and maybe win the DD fight isn't the big thing for me (i.e. the fact they get damage is not the big thing here).I think the amount of incoming ship fire from other enemy ships does enough where even the survivor is hanging on for dear life.

So if you're not having to get into the gunfight in the first place you're better off.

Again, the point you made about the state of IJN torpedo boats and of course the torp reload compared to gun reload is a factor - but I would like a 'good' IJN DD mid tier.

Appreciate your views. :Smile_honoring:

7 hours ago, Umikami said:

They aren't; but their ability to protect themselves against planes or other ships is much worse because of their poor, single purpose guns with low ROF.

Lets face it, AA is in a bad place and when a DD is spotted it isn't even the CV that is the danger half the time - its the multiple ships firing at it. Fair enough, a gunship may be able to take down an enemy DD first, but it is still going to take a good deal of damage (there are just to many things in game that assist in taking away concealment, and in addition the gunboats take away their own concealment with how they have to operate).

I agree gunboats can maybe end up making you feel like 'at least I did something before going out in a blaze of glory', but I would love a 'good' torpedo boat.

Appreciate your views. :Smile_honoring:

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6 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Lets face it, AA is in a bad place and when a DD is spotted it isn't even the CV that is the danger half the time - its the multiple ships firing at it. Fair enough, a gunship may be able to take down an enemy DD first, but it is still going to take a good deal of damage (there are just to many things in game that assist in taking away concealment, and in addition the gunboats take away their own concealment with how they have to operate).

I agree gunboats can maybe end up making you feel like 'at least I did something before going out in a blaze of glory', but I would love a 'good' torpedo boat.

You make a valid point, and I myself love torpedo boats, but before I spend hard cash on one there are some things I'd like to see .....

I'd like to see IJN torps not have the worst detection ranges in the game so they can't be spotted from orbit.

I'd like to see all main battery mounts on DDs be dual purpose mounts to offset CV spotting.

And I'd like to see the "puff" system of long range AA discarded and the old system be brought back so that I can defend both sides of my ship at the same time.

And then, HELL YES!

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I'm not sure that the IJN is particularly underrepresented. 

It's a shame the Kamikaze trio are not for sale, maybe like the similarly removed Belfast they could be replaced with a 'Kamikaze 1941' or something. 

Otherwise though, in addition to the Kamikaze there's still Shinonome and Yudachi, then a whole gaggle of T8's including Asashio, Harekaze, Yukikaze and the in-progress Arashi, with Hayate at T10. 

That's 2 mid-tier and 8 total. The Italians are struggling to get a single example, and even the RN for comparison has only ever had 3 premium destroyers at T3, T6 and T8. Japan doesn't look badly off.

 

Of the ideas floated here, I do like @GhostSwordsman's Nenohi suggestion. Something a little different for a Japanese destroyer compared to Shiratsuyu and Hatsuharu. I think Shigure would have a place too, and some of the premium choices instead are pretty weird. 

If the in-test AA and spotting change, halving air spotting in exchange for keeping AA off - and Japanese destroyer AA is worthless anyway - it might make the ships more attractive. I certainly don't bother playing mid tier destroyers, too high a risk of getting hounded to death by a pair of Rangers or other T6 carriers.

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4 hours ago, Umikami said:

You make a valid point, and I myself love torpedo boats, but before I spend ard cash on one there are some things I'd like to see .....

I'd like to see IJN torps not have the worst detection ranges in the game so they can't be spotted from orbit.

I'd like to see all main battery mounts on DDs be dual purpose mounts to offset CV spotting.

And I'd like to see the "puff" system of long range AA discarded and the old system be brought back so that I can defend both sides of my ship at the same time.

And then, HELL YES!

:Smile_teethhappy:I see where you're coming from BUT I bet there are many that read your post and started envisaging the horde of DDs wiping every other ship off the map (remember the AP change).

The fact is WG would never let that happen - the BB is King, Cruisers (especially the Battle Cruiser types) are second and the DD are last when it comes to 'battle'. Where the DD shines is if it can make it through to the other side - as more of the enemy die, the opportunities to do something meaningful gets better. Problem is, has your team done enough and already won the game before this time? If so, well at least you won.

For me that is why I only play DD for the lines I'm grinding, for enjoyment and fun I play BB and Cruisers - as I feel that on average (every game), I feel I have had a chance to contribute in an engaging way, that's not always the case in a DD. :Smile_honoring:

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As  I love my IJN DDs Fubuki in Tier VI and the Akatsuski in Tier VII not sure I would want to buy premium carbon copies of those 2 unless they distinctive upgrades.    As noted earlier in the threads the current prem DDs in those 2 tiers offer no enhancements as they are either a carbon copy or in the case of the Tier VII ... worse capabilities.      

 

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4 hours ago, Umikami said:

You make a valid point, and I myself love torpedo boats, but before I spend ard cash on one there are some things I'd like to see .....

I'd like to see IJN torps not have the worst detection ranges in the game so they can't be spotted from orbit.

I'd like to see all main battery mounts on DDs be dual purpose mounts to offset CV spotting.

And I'd like to see the "puff" system of long range AA discarded and the old system be brought back so that I can defend both sides of my ship at the same time.

And then, HELL YES!

I agree on the IJN torp detection. That nerf was possibly justified back in the day when many cruisers carried DFAA instead of hydro and there were no BBs or DDs with hydro, the only other DD line to counter them was the USN, and radar was rarer. And the only torpedo competition was the sea mines (up to T9) of the USN. Now every cruiser carries hydro, there are plenty of hydro DD and BBs, there are a ton of radar ships, and many more gunboat DDs. Not to mention the fact that they don't have the best torps anymore. The line gives up everything for good torps, and they don't even have those anymore. Knocking down the detection of IJN torps across the board would be just fine now IMO. I think you still have trouble because being completely reliant on torp damage is iffy, but it would definitely help because more hits equals a lot more damage.

And we can all agree that AA is screwed up for everyone. It's not so much that DDs have no AA, they never really did, but it would be nice if other ships had working AA that DD could use for cover.

6 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I think I disagree in the thought they rely on not being spotted more - only because the fact they can fire back quickly and maybe win the DD fight isn't the big thing for me (i.e. the fact they get damage is not the big thing here).I think the amount of incoming ship fire from other enemy ships does enough where even the survivor is hanging on for dear life.

So if you're not having to get into the gunfight in the first place you're better off.

Again, the point you made about the state of IJN torpedo boats and of course the torp reload compared to gun reload is a factor - but I would like a 'good' IJN DD mid tier.

Appreciate your views. :Smile_honoring:

 

You make a good point, and yes the major factor with getting spotted is the incoming from other ships. But I still think almost all other DD lines can handle that better. Some are meant to open water dodge, others have better smokes to hide in, and if you're spotted as a DD the chances of your torps hitting are much less which hurts the IJN more. I don't think the small advantage in air concealment the IJN has will have them being spotted that much less so that it makes up for their many other weaknesses.

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7 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

It's not so much that DDs have no AA, they never really did,

The USN did; Nicholas, for example, lost an entire "C" hull between Beta and Live Game. Yeah, some DDs did have AA, but lost it.

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