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Major Proposal: German Battleship Line Split Part 2

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Major Proposal: German Battleship Split Part 2

 

What it is: A continuation of my previous entry for the German Battleship Split. This split will incorporate what remains of German Battleship design, from the 1913 Baden-class SMS Bayern to the H-42 design of 1941. 

These warships are designed with the concept of being the spearhead of a supported and armored push through a flank, using their durable armor and hard hitting primary and secondary armament to force their way through said flank. However, these ships are very vulnerable to concentrated HE and AP fire, as well as torpedo armament and damage over time.

In addition, they carry good AA Defenses for their type, as well as having access to the Hydroacoustic Search consumable from Tier VIII onwards. However, from Tier IX onwards, they have very poor maneuverability and concealment that makes disengaging and repositioning difficult. 

 


Features of the Assault Line of German Battleships

  • Gargantuan HP Pools from Tier VIII onwards that exceed that of others, with exceptions
  • Damage over Time is a massive liability to ships of Tier IX-X
  • Impressively durable armor at all Tiers, with turtleback armor schematics and improved bow armor.
  • Fairly large caliber main armaments that have a low rate of fire, sluggish turret traverse, and sluggish ballistics, but are reasonably accurate.
  • Powerful secondary batteries that become modernised from Tier IX onwards, which boast a large firing range and high shell volume
  • AA Defense is above average compared to Tier mates ( with exceptions )
  • Exceptionally poor maneuverability and concealment from Tier IX onwards, with turning circles in excess of a kilometer or more.
  • Access to Hydroacoustic Search from Tier VIII onwards, and an improved variant from Tier IX onwards
  • Improved torpedo defenses and High-Explosive resistant decks in excess of 60mm in thickness from Tier VIII.
  • ( X ) Kaiser Wilhelm II, carries 18.9 inch artillery

 

Vessels of the Assault Line

  • Tier VI: Bayern ( Second ship of Baden-class )
  • Tier VII: Braunschweig ( L 20a, named after lead ship of Braunschweig class )
  • Tier VIII: Westfalen ( L 24e Alpha, named after final ship of Nassau-class )
  • Tier IX: Ostfriesland (H-41 (1943), named after 3rd ship of Helgoland-Class )
  • Tier X: Kaiser Wilhelm II (H-42 (1944 w/ theoretical refit ), named after 2nd ship of Kaiser Friedrich III-class )


 

 


Tier VI Assault Line: Bayern

 

Like the Friedrich der Grosse in the Raider line, Bayern is receiving some changes that will make it more competitive at it’s tier, especially against the likes of the Soviet Izmail and the British battleships, if not outright overpowered.

 

Armor changes

  • HP pool on stock hull increased from 43,900 to 45,500

  • HP pool on upgraded hull increased from 51,600 to 53,000

 

The only changes that I made here were an increase to the HP pool of the ship, which was on the lower end of vessels at this tier. I understand that the armor scheme is ridiculous for a Tier VI BB ( it would be ridiculous at Tier VIII-just look at the Bismarck sisters ), but the Bayern is seriously vulnerable to fire and torpedo damage, and an HP increase will allow it to survive just a little bit longer.


 

Armament Changes

  • N/A

I don’t feel that Bayern was underperforming or over-performing in the armaments department, given how many games I played in that ship, and never once feeling the need to buff it.


 

AA Changes

  • Increase in midrange AA from 6x2 37mm to 11x2 37mm, increase in Midrange DPS from 31.5 to 65.5

 

This is a mild improvement to her midrange AA. Nothing serious.


 

Maneuverability Changes

  • N/A

I don’t feel that Bayern was overperforming here either


 

Concealment changes

  • N/A

I was tempted to nerf the stealth of the Bayern, because it was so utterly ridiculous that I resorted to calling it a Mini-Roma at Tier VI. However, other battleships at this tier also have such potential, with poor Fuso being the sole outlier. So I decided against it in the end.

 

Consumable Changes

  • N/A

Nothing was out of line here either, so no changes were made.


 

 


Tier VII Assault Line: Braunschweig

This is the first of two L20 designs that are present, this being the original 35,000 ton design, armed with 380mm guns in four twin turrets and receiving a modernisation package not unlike the Bayern’s. If we want to be super specific, the design present at Tier VII will be the 38,000 ton L3 preliminary design.

 

Armor

  • Displacement: 38,000 T dry, 45,400 T Wet w/upgrades
  • HP Pool: 55,700 Stock, 64,400 Upgraded
  • Plating: 26mm
  • Main Belt armor: 350mm
  • Upper Belt / Casement armor: 170mm
  • Splinter Belt armor: 120mm
  • Extended Belt armor: 60mm
  • Deck armor: 50mm
  • Turtleback Slope: 100mm@45*
  • Citadel Armor: 250mm/100mm/60mm
  • Turret Armor: 350mm/250mm/100mm
  • Torpedo Protection: 21% @ 30mm
  • Fire/Flood duration: Standard Battleship

 

The armor profile is a series of soft improvements over the armor found on the Bayern-class, such as thickened bulkheads and deck armor, as well as improved torpedo protection. This gives the Braunschweig a fairly impressive level of durability compared to other Tier VII Battleships, and it certainly can stack up as being more durable than something like a Sinop, because unlike that stupid Russian Battleship, it doesn’t get citadeled.

As for why it’s so absurdly massive, it’s because of the fact that the top hull represents a full modernisation, which would add around 3,400 tons to the overall displacement. 

 

Armaments

Primary Armament: 4 x 2 380mm SK L/45

  • Layout: Balanced ( AB-XY )
  • Reload: 30 seconds
  • Range: 17.9km stock, 19.7 upgraded
  • Stock HE Shell: 4500 Alpha, 95mm penetration, 35% fire chance, 800 m/s velocity
  • Upgraded HE Shell: 4400 Alpha, 95mm penetration. 36% fire chance, 800 m/s velocity
  • Stock AP Shell: 10,900 Alpha, 26mm overmatch, 45*-60* Autobounce, 800 m/s velocity
  • Upgraded AP Shell: 11,600 Alpha, 26mm overmatch, 45*-60* Autobounce, 800 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: German Battleship
  • Sigma: 1.8
  • Turret Traverse: 4.0*/sec
  • Firing arcs: 140* on turrets A/B, 150* on Turrets X/Y

 

Stock Secondary Armament

Level 1:  12 x 1 150mm SK L/45

  • Layout: Balanced Wing
  • Reload: 8.57 seconds
  • Range: 5.5 kilometers
  • HE Shell: 1,800 Alpha, 10.0% fire chance, 38mm penetration, 835 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: Standard Secondary
  • Sigma: 1.0
  • Firing arcs: Unknown

Level 2: 8 x 1 10.5cm SK L/45

  • Layout: Rear Stagger Wing
  • Reload: 4.00 seconds
  • Range: 5.5km
  • HE Shell: 1,200 Alpha, 5.0% fire chance, 18mm penetration, 715 m/s velocity


 

Upgraded Secondary Armament

Level 1: 12 x 1 150mm SK L/45

  • Layout: Forward Stagger Wing
  • Reload: 8.57 seconds
  • Range: 5.5 kilometers
  • HE Shell: 1,800 Alpha, 10.0% fire chance, 38mm penetration, 835 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: Standard Secondary
  • Sigma: 1.0
  • Firing arcs: Unknown

Level 2: 8 x 2 105mm L/65 SK C/33

  • Layout: Balanced Wing
  • Reload: 3.35 seconds
  • Range: 5.5km
  • HE Shell: 1,200 Alpha, 5.0% fire chance, 26mm penetration, 900 m/s velocity

 

Braunschweig’s armament is largely a soft upgrade over Bayern's armament, though the changes are more significant than one might expect. For starters, when upgraded, the shells change from Bayern’s shells to Gneisenau’s shells, similar to how the Colorado’s guns change their shells when the ship gets upgraded. The velocity is still rather slow, at 800 m/s, and unbelievably, the HE shells are actually worse. However, the AP shells see a major increase in raw penetration and  a minor increase in Alpha damage, as well as an increase in shell weight, which means that they won’t shatter like the Bayern’s shells. 

Now we’ll talk about secondary guns. To be completely honest, the stock secondaries are anemic. The 105mm SK L/45 guns have terrible velocity and poor penetration values, as well as rather anemic damage output. The 150mm guns do some pretty good work, but they are short ranged and fire rather slowly for a supposed brawler. 

Once upgraded, however, oh boy, do things get fun. Not only does the Braunschweig retain all of it’s 150mm guns, it’s complement of 105mm guns gets doubled to 16 guns, mounted on the ever-reliable SK C/33 Dual mount, which also massively boosts the Braunschweig’s AA Defenses to the point that it can compete against the likes of Gneisenau and Lyon. 

Is it good? Yes. Is it overpowered? Eh, no. The primary armament still has a relatively sluggish reload of 30 seconds, and even with the upgraded hull, the Alpha damage is the same as the Bismarck, with the DPM being far worse. 


 

AA Defense

Stock Long Range AA Defense: 8 x 1 105mm SK L/45

  • Range: 5.2km
  • Aura DPS: 31.1 
  • Flak: 1+0 @ 990 damage

 

Upgraded Long Range AA Defense: 8 x 2 105mm L/65 SK C/33

  • Range: 5.2km
  • Aura DPS: 161.0 
  • Flak: 5+1 @ 1330

Upgraded Mid Range AA Defense: 14 x 2 37mm Flakzwilling 30

  • Range: 3.5km
  • Aura DPS: 155.3
  • Flak: 0

Upgraded Short Range AA Defense: 10 x 4 20mm

  • Range: 2.0km
  • Aura DPS: 121.3
  • Flak: 0

Access to Fighter: Yes

Access to Defensive AA Fire: No

 

Braunschweig’s AA Defenses start off quite poorly. In fact, it has less DPS than the Nagato, and even less than the Ashitaka, a ship known for it’s horrid AA defenses. Of course it’s only horrid until you actually upgrade the ship to it’s B-hull. Not only do the long range AA Defenses gain a whole new set of teeth, thanks to the new dual-mount guns, but the Braunschweig adds a whole two rings of Defense to it’s Anti-Aircraft systems, with high DPS and fairly good range that will allow it to stave off lower tier aircraft carriers, and put up some resistance against higher tier carriers. It also has access to an aircraft catapult, which isn’t as functional as it used to be back in the old RTS days, but it still serves a purpose as a deterrent. Also, given the Braunschweig’s lack of hydroacoustics, it can spot DDs from above islands as well.


 

Maneuverability

Velocity Characteristics

  • Engine Power: 100,000 HP
  • Top Speed: 26 knots
  • Acceleration: Battleship standard
  • Rotational velocity: 19.6 knots

Handling Characteristics

  • Turning radius: 740 meters
  • Stock Rudder shift: 17.9 seconds
  • Upgraded rudder shift: 14.4 seconds
  • Rotational speed: 3.8* / second

 

The Braunschweig’s handling characteristics are quite good for a German Battleship, especially one as large as it is. Of course, this is due to the fact that the Braunschweig also suffers from a rather low top speed for a German Battleship, despite the usage of 22 separate boilers and a total of 100,000 shaft horsepower. Then again, the Braunschweig trades the outright top speed of something like the Gneisenau or the Scharnhorst for what can be argued as some of the best twirling of any of the Tier VII Battleships. Shame there’s no Engine Boost to help it out…

Moving on


 

Stealth

  • Surface Detection Radius: 16.1km
  • Aerial Detection radius: 11.7km
  • Smoke firing penalty: 15.4km 
  • Assured detection radius: 2.00km
  • Access to Hydroacoustic Search: No

 

The Braunschweig’s detectability falls in line with Tier VII Battleship standards, nothing exceptional to note of. Moving along


 

Consumables

  • Damage Control Party: 15 Second action time, 80 second cooldown
  • Repair Party: Standard Battleship Repair Party
  • Fighter or Spotter

 

Standard consumables for all BBs, nothing unusual to note of.

 

Well, that’s the Braunscwheig done, now we’ll look at the Tier VIII, the Westfalen, another L20 design, though this time, it is the finalized variant, with some serious upgrades on the B-hull that might just be overtuned for a Tier VIII


 

 


Tier VIII Assault Line: Westfalen

Named after the small town of Westfalen, as well as the last ship of the Nassau-class dreadnought battleships, the Westfalen is the final design of the L20 Alpha-class battleships ( Design L 24e A ), armed with the largest guns of all the Tier VIII Battleships, at 420mm in caliber. Her stock hull represents her as she would have looked in 1930, had she been completed, and her upgraded hull represents a theoretical 1938 upgrade, complete with more AA guns and an improved secondary battery, as well as armor and tonnage increases.


 

Armor

  • Displacement: 43,800 Tons Dry, 53,500 Tons Wet w/1938 upgrade
  • HP Pool: 62,600 stock, 74000 Upgraded
  • Plating: 32mm
  • Main Armor Belt: 350mm 
  • Upper belt armor: 170mm
  • Extended armor belt: 60-150mm
  • Deck armor: 50mm ( increases to 60mm with hull upgrade )
  • Turtleback: 100mm @ 45* ( Increases to 120mm with hull upgrade )
  • Citadel Armor: 250mm / 150mm / 60mm
  • Turret Armor: 380mm / 250mm / 100mm
  • Torpedo Protection: 24% @ 50mm
  • Fire / Flooding Duration: Battleship standard

 

The Westfalen largely copies the Braunschweig’s armor scheme, but the armor thickness actually increases with the hull upgrades, with the deck thickness increasing to 60 millimetres and the Turtleback armor slope increasing to 120mm in thickness. One thing to note is that the final design had the secondary gun battery turrets receive 170mm of plating, but it is difficult to recreate this given the limitations of the knowledge about this vessel, or it’s design.


 

Armaments

Primary Armament: 4 x 2 420mm SK L/45 DrH C/1919

  • Layout: Balanced ( AB-XY )
  • Reload: 28 seconds
  • Range: 19.9km stock, 21.9 upgraded
  • HE Shell: 4800 Alpha, 38% fire chance, 101mm penetration, 800 m/s velocity
  • AP Shell: 12,400 Alpha Damage, 45-60* Autobounce, 800 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: German Battleship
  • Sigma: 1.8
  • Turret Traverse: 5* / second
  • Firing Angles: 140* on all turrets

 

Stock Secondary Armament

Level 1: 12 x 1 150mm SK L/45

  • Layout: Balanced Wing
  • Reload: 8.57 seconds
  • Range: 5.8 kilometers
  • HE Shell: 1,800 Alpha, 10.0% fire chance, 38mm penetration, 835 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: Standard Secondary
  • Sigma: 1.0
  • Firing arcs: Unknown

Level 2: 8 x 1 105mm SK L/45

  • Layout: Rear Stagger Wing
  • Reload: 4.00 seconds
  • Range: 5.8km
  • HE Shell: 1,200 Alpha, 5.0% fire chance, 18mm penetration, 715 m/s velocity
  • Firing Arcs: Unknown

 

Upgraded Secondary Armament

Level 1: 12 x 1 150mm L/55 SK C/28

  • Layout: Balanced Wing
  • Reload: 7.5 seconds
  • Range: 7.8km
  • HE Shell: 1700 Alpha, 8.0% fire chance, 38mm HE penetration, 875 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: Standard Secondary
  • Sigma: 1.0
  • Firing Arcs: Unknown

Level 2: 8 x 2 105mm L/65 Dopp. SK C/33

  • Layout: Balanced Wing
  • Reload: 3.35 seconds
  • Range: 5.5km
  • HE Shell: 1,200 Alpha, 5.0% fire chance, 26mm penetration, 900 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: Standard secondary
  • Sigma: 1.0
  • Firing Arcs: N/A

 

Oh boy, big guns! Except they sorta suck. These are not the capable L/48 guns found on the Kurfurst. These are L/45 guns, which means that they have lower penetration and velocity retention, even though the initial velocity is the same. I had to extrapolate more data than I usually do here, because these guns never existed in real life, and we have no details other than line sketches and preliminary information. We do know about the shell weight, which is exactly one ton, but no information regarding bursting charges or any other things exists. To this end, I gave the HE Shells the same parameters as the 406mm shells found on the Friedrich der Grosse, and I used Frosty’s AP shell formula and gave the AP shells an alpha damage of 12,400. I also considered giving the Westfalen the FdG shells on the upgraded hull, but I decided against this, knowing well what happens when German reload speed meets ‘Murican AP, especially at Tier VIII. Otherwise, the guns perform very well, with a 22 kilometer firing range and fairly good dispersion, though don’t expect a sniper, given the light shell weight compared to other AP.

Now we’ll talk about secondary pew-pews. The stock secondaries are the same ones that are on the Braunschweig at Tier VII, so there is nothing special to note. However, with the upgraded hull, the secondary madness truly begins. First of all, the 15cm L/45 guns are replaced with the same casement gun mounts as the Graf Zeppelin, only in single turrets instead of dual turrets. These guns have slightly lower HE alpha damage and fire chance, but they make up for it with an increase in rate of fire and shell velocity. Additionally, the 105mm L/45 guns are replaced with the twin 105mm 65 caliber mounts that were previously featured on the Braunschweig, as well as pretty much all the other German battleships that arent the Grosser Kurfurst or the Gneisenau. 

More importantly, however, is that the secondary guns gain two whole kilometers of range with the hull upgrade, which makes them extremely dangerous to anything that dares stray within range, regardless of size, thanks to improved penetration and rate of fire.


 

Stock AA Defense

Stock Long Range AA Defense: 8 x 1 105mm SK L/45

  • Range: 5.2km
  • DPS: 31.1
  • Flak: 2+0 @ 1,040 damage

Stock Mid Range AA Defense: 4 x 2 37mm/83 SK C/30

  • Range: 3.5km
  • DPS: 51.1
  • Flak: 0

Stock Short Range AA Defense: 6 x 2 20mm/65 C/30

  • Range: 2.0km
  • DPS: 71.1
  • Flak: 0

 

Upgraded AA Defense

Upgraded Long Range AA Defense: 8 x 2 105mm L/65 SK C/33

  • Range: 5.2km
  • DPS: 161.0
  • Flak: 5+1 @ 1,330 Damage

Upgraded Mid Range AA Defense: 22 x 2 37mm/83 SK C/30

  • Range: 3.5km
  • DPS: 381.4
  • Flak: 0

Upgraded Short Range AA Defense: 18 x 2 20mm/65 C/38 

  • Range: 2.0km
  • DPS: 251.1
  • Flak: 0

Access to Fighter: Yes

Access to Defensive AA Fire: No

 

Westfalen’s AA Defense is… massive, to say the least. While it’s not to the level of, say, North Carolina, it is certainly a very powerful warning towards both lower tier and equal tier aircraft carriers, particularly with the powerful midrange AA Defense that can shred Tier VI squadrons with ease. I mean, the stock AA Defense is pitiful at best, even Amagi has better AA, but the upgrade path is well worth it.


 

Maneuverability

Velocity Characteristics

  • Engine Power: 100,000 SHP
  • Top Speed: 27.5 Knots
  • Acceleration: Battleship Standard
  • Turning Speed: 20.6 knots

Handling Characteristics

  • Turning Radius: 790 meters
  • Rudder Shift Time: 18.9 seconds stock, 14.9 seconds upgraded
  • Rotational Velocity: 3.8 degrees per second

 

Enjoy the good handling while you can, fellas. The Westfalen is the last of the dreadnoughts in this line, and after this begins the rough transition to the H-41’s trucklike handling characteristics. The turning radius is among the best at Tier VIII, at 790 meters, and the top speed of 27.5 knots is wholly respectable for a Tier VIII Battleship, lagging behind most of the competition but capable of keeping pace with the flow of the battle. However, it’s rudder shift is pretty sluggish, at 14.9 seconds fully upgraded, though it is on the better end of the Tier VIII Spectrum.


 

Stealth

  • Surface Detection Radius: 16.6km
  • Aerial Detection radius: 11.9km
  • Smoke firing penalty: 16.3km 
  • Assured detection radius: 2.00km
  • Access to Hydroacoustic Search: Yes

 

Standard concealment, nothing serious. However, this is the first ship of the Assault line that gains access to Hydroacoustic Search.

 

Consumables

  • Damage Control Party: 15 second action time, 80 second cooldown.
  • Repair Party: Standard Repair Party, 4 charges base
  • Fighter / Spotter
  • Hydroacoustic Search: 120 second action time, 3.75 / 5.5km action range, 120 second cooldown, 3 charges base

 

Standard Consumable loadout for a Tier VIII Battleship, with the exception of the Hydroacoustic Search. This Hydro, however, is not the Bismarck’s hydro, but it is the Mid-Tier German  Cruiser Hydroacoustic Search, with 3.75 kilometers of Torpedo spotting range and 5.5 kilometers of Ship Spotting Range.



 


Tier IX Assault Line: Ostfriesland

This is the Ostfriesland, the Tier IX H-41 class Battleship. Named after the third ship of the Helgoland class dreadnoughts, famous for being the first ship to be sunk by aerial bombing, the Ostfriesland is very heavily armored and armed to the teeth for a Tier IX warship, with a heavy battery of 420mm guns that boast improved accuracy over same tier rivals, as well as a powerful secondary battery that can shred both destroyers and cruisers from extreme ranges. However, it’s AA Defenses are rather short ranged, and it has horrid maneuverability and detection even for a Tier IX Battleship.

 

Armor

  • Displacement: 64,000 Tons dry, 68,800 tons wet
  • HP Pool: 86,400 Stock, 92,100 Upgraded 
  • Plating: 32mm
  • Main Armor Belt: 320mm 
  • Upper belt armor: 150mm
  • Extended armor belt: 60-150mm
  • Deck armor: 60mm
  • Turtleback: 150mm @ 45* 
  • Citadel Armor: 300mm / 150mm / 70mm
  • Turret Armor: 400mm / 270mm / 120mm
  • Torpedo Protection: 27% @ 50mm
  • Fire / Flooding Duration: Battleship standard

 

First of all, this is a chonky boi, even for a Tier IX Battleship. At 92,100 hitpoints, the Ostfriesland has more health than even the Tier X Kronprinz, and outstrips the competition at Tier IX by anywhere from 4,000 hitponts at least ( Sov. Soyuz ), and over 24,000 hitpoints at most ( Lion ). The only one that still has an advantage at this tier is the Musashi, by virtue of the fact that the Musashi is ( still! ) a Yamato at Tier IX, and even there, the gap has narrowed to just over 5,000 hitpoints. The armor scheme is further improved over tier mates as well, with a 320mm main armor belt concealing a 150mm Turtleback that all but prevents citadels at close range, and an extended waterline bow and stern belt that prevents overmatch shots. Not only that, but the deck armor is as thick as that of the Sovetsky Soyuz, at 60mm in thickness. IFHE is the hard counter, obviously, but you give up fire chance and damage over time for ( arguably questionable ) gains in direct damage dealing. However, the turtleback armor scheme does not prevent damage in it’s entirety, and the massive HP pool also makes damage over time a massive liability, especially versus the high rate of fire HE spammers such as the USN CLs and the Soviet CLs. Therefore, a fire prevention build and judicious use of Damage Control will be key to maximising longevity in battle. 


 

Armaments

Primary Armament: 4x2 420mm L/48 SK C/40

  • Layout: Balanced ( AB-XY )
  • Reload: 28 seconds
  • Range: 18.6km stock, 20.5 upgraded
  • HE Shell: 5100 Damage, 41% Fire chance, 105mm penetration, 800 m/s velocity
  • AP Shell: 13,500 Damage, 45-60* Autobounce, 28mm overmatch, 800 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: German Battleship
  • Sigma: 1.8
  • Turret Traverse Speed: 5.25* / second
  • Firing Angles: 150* on turret A/B, 140* on Turret X, 135* on Turret Y

 

Secondary Armament

Level 1: 6 x 2 150mm L/55 SK C/28 

  • Layout: Wing Forward Stagger
  • Reload: 7.5 seconds ( 6.0 seconds with upgraded hull )
  • Range: 8.2 kilometers
  • HE Shell: 1,700 Alpha damage, 8% fire chance, 38mm penetration
  • Sigma: 1.0
  • Dispersion: German Battleship
  • Firing Angles: Unknown

Level 2: 8 x 2 105mm L/65 SK C/33

  • Layout: Balanced Wing
  • Reload: 3.35 seconds
  • Range: 8.2 kilometers
  • HE Shell: 1,200 Alpha damage, 5% fire chance, 26mm penetration
  • Sigma: 1.0
  • Firing Angles: Unknown

 

The Ostfriesland’s secondary gun battery is of more note than the primary battery. Yes, the Primary battery has some seriously big guns, but these are the same guns that were previously mounted on the Friedrich der Grosse, with the exception of 2.0 sigma instead of 1.8 to compensate for the fact that it’s only 8 gun barrels where everyone else has 9. The secondary battery is of more note for the fact that it has over 8 kilometers of base range. Yes, you read that right, over 8 kilometers. This, combined with the high shell velocity of German 105 and 150mm guns, allows the Ostfriesland’s seconday battery to nail targets well in excess of 12 kilometers with upgrades and commander skills. Ostfriesland’s main battery is not to be trifled with either. With fairly good accuracy and a heavy punch, Ostfriesland’s 420mm guns are capable of tearing cruisers asunder at medium and long ranges, and sucker punching battleships in close range gun duels. High speed turret traverse and a relatively quick reload of 28 seconds also add into the mix, giving the Ostfriesland massive brawling power in any given situation, while retaining effectiveness at longer ranges as well.


 

 

Stock AA Defense

Long Range: 8 x 2 105mm L/65 SK C/33

  • Range: 5.2km
  • DPS: 154.0
  • Flak: 5+1 @ 1,470 damage

Medium Range: 20 x 2 3.7cm/83 SK C/30

  • Range : 3.5km
  • DPS: 356.6
  • Flak: 0

Short Range AA Defense: 12 x 2 2cm/65 C/38

  • Range: 2.0km
  • DPS: 201.1
  • Flak: 0

 

Upgraded AA Defense

Long Range Level 1: 8 x 2 105mm L/65 SK C/33

  • Range: 5.2km
  • DPS: 154.0
  • Flak: 5+1 @ 1,470 Damage

Medium Range: 32 x 2 3.7cm/57 M43

  • Range: 3.5km
  • DPS: 465.4
  • Flak: 0

Short Range: 20 x 2 2cm/70 Flak 28

  • Range: 2.0km
  • DPS: 291.3
  • Flak: 0

 

If you thought Westfalen’s AA Defense was good, wait till you get a load of the Ostfriesland’s AA. The range is rather short, at just 5.2 kilometers, but the DPS is immense enough that Tier VIII carrier squadrons coming in for attacks will be obliterated in short order ( Kaga has it even worse due to her low plane HP ), and Tier X Squadrons will definitely think twice before coming in for a run. Sure, they’ll get an attack off, but the aircraft will lose most of their HP doing so, making Ostfriesland a very unappetizing target for aerial attacks, 

Ironic, considering the fate of her namesake…


 

Maneuverability

Velocity Characteristics

  • Maximum Speed: 28.8 knots
  • Acceleration: Battleships Standard
  • Turning Speed: 21.6 knots

Handling Characteristics

  • Turning Circle: 1040 meters
  • Rudder Shift Time: 22.1 seconds stock, 18.4 seconds upgraded
  • Rotational Speed: 3.5* / second

 

This is horrible handling, period. Even with that relatively stately top speed of 28.8 knots, the sheer size of the Ostfriesland gives it a massive turning radius and a huge amount of roll when in a hard turn. The fact that the rudder is also extremely slow for a German Battleship does it no favors either. Set up your attack runs with caution, otherwise you may end up more fool than hero.


 

Concealment

  • Surface Detection Radius: 17.8km
  • Aerial Detection Radius: 13.1km
  • Smoke Firing Penalty: 17.1km
  • Assured Detection Range: 2.0km
  • Access to Hydroacoustic Search: Yes
  • Access to Surveillance Radar: No

 

This is also horrible stealth, even for a Tier IX Battleship. Like I said, these Assault Battleships are massive gun barges with lots of armor, not hunter-killers like the other line. You want a stealthy ship? Get a Lion.

 

Consumables

  • Damage Control Party; Standard Damage Control Party
  • Repair Party; Standard Repair Party
  • Fighter / Spotter
  • Hydroacoustic Search; 120 Second Action Time, 4km/6km Acquisition Range, 120 second cooldown, 3 charges base

 

Standard Consumable loadout for a high-tier German Battleship. Nothing out of the ordinary. 

 


Tier X Assault Line: Kaiser Wilhelm II

Finally, we get to Tier X, with the Kaiser Wilhelm II. This is officially the largest vessel in the game, being larger and heavier than even the Grosser Kurfurst, which this ship replaces in the Tech Tree. As a side note, the Kurfurst will be transferred to the armory in exchange for 249,000 Coal as a Special / Reward ship, and yes, it will keep it’s permacamo, unlike the Moskva, which didn’t keep it’s own Permacamo.


 

Armor

  • Displacement: 94,000 Tons
  • HP Pool: 117,100
  • Plating: 32mm
  • Main Armor Belt: 400mm 
  • Upper belt armor: 203mm
  • Extended armor belt: 70-150mm
  • Deck armor: 60mm
  • Turtleback: 150mm @ 45* 
  • Citadel Armor: 320mm / 160mm / 70mm
  • Turret Armor: 480mm / 290mm / 130mm
  • Torpedo Protection: 30% @ 50mm
  • Fire / Flooding Duration: Battleship standard

 

Okay, so, I should really get one important thing out of the way first. The H-42 was never seriously considered for production, as it was far too large for any drydock or river transit in or through German waters. As such, a lot of the armor thicknesses are based off of speculation and extrapolation from the real-life specifications of the previous H-Class vessels. According to one statement, Hitler had given full rein to the design bureaus to make a larger and more powerful battleship than any of the previous designs, and had given the only restrictions of more durable armor and a main battery to match, as well as a top speed of 30 knots. As such, it is possible to determine that, given the massive displacement increase of the H-42 over the H-41 design, the H-42 design had far more armor than the H-41 design ( because we can’t just say that a caliber increase to 480mm would end up meaning a displacement increase of nearly 20,000 tons ). 

 

But that’s enough rambling about history. Just look at all that Krupp plating, Not to mention that it has a massive HP pool of 117,100 hitpoints, giving it the largest HP pool in the game and making it the fourth ship in the game (after the Grosser Kurfurst, the Kremlin, and the Vermont), with a stock HP pool of over 100,000 hitpoints. The armor is substantially improved over the Ostfriesland’s armor as well,  with nearly 19 inches of turret armor and a turtleback that actually works at range ( and isn’t based like the other ones) . However, like the Ostfriesland, that massive HP pool can work against it when it comes to absorbing Damage over Time, due to how DoT mechanics work. Thankfully, the massive HP pool also means that the heal works extremely well, repairing nearly 20,000 hitpoints per charge with a single press of a button, which is a huge amount of health, and while it’s nowhere near the amount of health that can be repaired by the British Specialized Repair Teams carried aboard Conqueror, which can repair nearly 40,000 hitpoints with the flag, it’s fairly capable for a standard heal. But that’s enough about taking damage. What about dishing it out?


 

Armaments

Primary Armament: 4 x 2 480mm L/50 SK C/42

  • Layout: Balanced ( AB-XY )
  • Reload: 32 seconds
  • Range: 20.8km
  • HE Shell: 6100 Alpha Damage, 55% Fire chance, 120mm Penetration, 805 m/s velocity
  • AP Shell: 15,600 Alpha Damage, 45-60* autobounce, 33mm overmatch, 805 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: German Battleship
  • Sigma: 1.8
  • Turret Traverse speed: 4* / second
  • Firing Angles: 135* on all turrets

 

Secondary Armament

Level 1: 6 x 2 150mm L/55 SK C/28

  • Layout: Wing Forward Stagger
  • Reload: 6.0 seconds
  • Range: 8.3km
  • HE Shell: 1,700 Alpha Damage, 8.0% fire chance, 38mm penetration, 875 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion: Standard Secondary
  • Sigma: 1.0

Level 2: 8 x 2 128mm L/61 SK C/40

  • Layout: Wing Balanced
  • Reload: 4.0 seconds
  • Range: 8.5km
  • HE Shell: 1,500 Alpha damage, 5.0% fire chance: 32mm penetration, 875 m/s velocity
  • Dispersion, Standard secondary
  • Sigma: 1.0

 

The big talking point about the Kaiser Wilhelm are the guns. These are the largest guns found on a Tech-tree ship, at 480mm in caliber, with over 16,000 alpha strike per shell and fairly reasonable accuracy for a German Battleship. However, with just 8 shells and a fairly long reload of 30 seconds, the main battery lacks damage per minute compared to her tiermates, and while the guns can overmatch 32mm of armor, the fact that it’s still German dispersion means that you aren’t that likely to hit shots at longer range that would be capable of dealing the damage of the Yamato’s 460mm overmatch shells. However, this is compensated for by a secondary battery that reaches out to nearly 13 kilometers with upgrades and commander skills, and boasts a massive amount of damage output courtesy of the improved 150mm guns from the Ostfriesland and the 128mm guns from the Grosser Kurfurst

Absurd, right?  Well, yes and no. You see, while Stalin might have had a point about quantity having a quality all of it’s own, quantity would matter more if it hit more often as well, and these secondary guns might throw out a crapton of shells, but hitting with them, especially without MFCSA, is difficult, to say the least.


 

AA Defenses

Long Range AA Defense: 8 x 2 128mm L/61 SK C/40

  • Range: 6.0km
  • DPS: 113.0
  • Flak: 5+1 @ 1,540 Damage

Midrange AA: 40 x 4 37mm/69 Flak M43

  • Range: 3.5km
  • DPS: 510.3
  • Flak: 0

Short Range AA: 40 x 2 20mm Flakzwilling

  • Range: 2.0km
  • DPS: 389.1
  • Flak: 0

Access to Fighter: Yes

Access to DFAA: No

 

The Kaiser Wilhelm is bristling with AA Guns, to put it bluntly. While sources debate how many 37mm AA guns would actually have been emplaced on such a massive vessel, it is arguable that said number of guns would not have stayed the same as the war went on. In this case, the AA Defense consists primarily of 37mm Flakzwilling mounts, and while the range is rather short, the DPS is tremendous, making short work of almost any squadron that tries to enter it’s range. The long range AA is rather lacking, of course, but it is adequately compensated for by the Mid and Short range AA Defenses.


 

Maneuverability

Velocity Characteristic

  • Top Speed: 28 knots
  • Acceleration: Battleship Standard
  • Turning velocity: 21 knots

Handling Characteristics

  • Turning Radius: 1,180 meters ( !!! )
  • Rudder shift Time: 21.9 seconds
  • Rotational speed: 3.0* / second

 

I did say the handling would be atrocious, didn’t I?

 

Concealment

  • Surface Detection Radius: 18.8km
  • Aerial Detection Radius: 14.2km
  • Smoke Firing Penalty: 20.2km
  • Assured Detection Radius: 2.0km
  • Access to Hydroacoustic Search: Yes
  • Access to Surveillance Radar: Yes

 

And, if it can be believed, her stealth is even more appalling than the Kurfurst.

 

Consumables

  • Damage Control Party; Standard
  • Repair Party; Standard
  • Fighter / Spotter
  • Hydroacoustic Search: 120 second action time; 4.0km torpedo acquisition range, 6.0 kilometer ship acquisition range, 120 second cooldown, 3 charges base.

Standard consumable loadout for a high tier German Battleship.


 

 


 

There, done. I wasn’t expecting to get it finished on time, but hey, it was only two extra days of work, and it was worth it. Also worth noting that it took 20 whole pages in Google Drive

Welp, that’s all I got for you folks today. My schoolwork is starting to pile up by the day, so don’t bother me about any projects for the next month or so. 

 

-Shrayes

 

Edit: @Lert, here's the other one.

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula
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1 hour ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Gargantuan HP Pools from Tier VIII onwards that exceed that of others

And you lost me .... NO!

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This game doesn't need any more ships with "Gargantuan HP Pools from Tier VIII onwards that exceed that of others". As a matter of fact, we're about to get 3 new USN BBs with "Gargantuan HP Pools from Tier VIII onwards that exceed that of others". What the game needs is ships that need to move and require skill to play, not huge mountains of HP where players hide in back and spend the game slamming their left mouse button. So .... NO!

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29 minutes ago, Umikami said:

This game doesn't need any more ships with "Gargantuan HP Pools from Tier VIII onwards that exceed that of others". As a matter of fact, we're about to get 3 new USN BBs with "Gargantuan HP Pools from Tier VIII onwards that exceed that of others". What the game needs is ships that need to move and require skill to play, not huge mountains of HP where players hide in back and spend the game slamming their left mouse button. So .... NO!

You do know that these things have horrid accuracy at long range.  In addition, they are more mobile than the new Super Standards, with higher damage per minute and MASSIVELY more powerful secondary batteries, as well as absorbing pretty much all damage slung at them.

The whole point of the Assault line is a high skill-floor, ultra-high skill ceiling, high risk - high reward Battleship line that rewards aggressive play and smart tactical decisions, and punishes misplays with horrible handling. In fact, the handling is the only weakness of the high tier ships.

Also, read the entire consarned thing before passing judgement. 

-Shrayes

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2 hours ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

You do know that these things have horrid accuracy at long range. 

Just like the new USN BBs?

2 hours ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

In addition, they are more mobile than the new Super Standards, with higher damage per minute and MASSIVELY more powerful secondary batteries, as well as absorbing pretty much all damage slung at them.

LOOK! OUT ON THE OCEAN! IT'S A BIRD! IT'S A SEAPLANE! IT'S SUPER BB! (So, besides being impossible to kill and being able to sling super damage levels, what does it bring to the game besides a GOD-SHIP that can't be balanced?)

2 hours ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

The whole point of the Assault line is a high skill-floor, ultra-high skill ceiling, high risk - high reward Battleship line that rewards aggressive play and smart tactical decisions, and punishes misplays with horrible handling. In fact, the handling is the only weakness of the high tier ships.

Not really the way I'm seeing it; I'm seeing it as a low-skill, high ceiling, low-risk/high reward BB line that rewards having the bucks to buy it and punishes everyone else within firing range by being totally OP and very difficult to kill.

2 hours ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Also, read the entire consarned thing before passing judgement. 

That's the point ... I don't need to, and neither will WG. A blind man could see that what you're proposing is so OP as to be game breaking. You say it's handling is it's only weakness, yet, in your own words, "they are more mobile than the new Super Standards". Where is the weakness there? And if that is it's ONLY weakness, then we're in trouble.

NO!

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45 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Just like the new USN BBs?

Eh, no. Besides, Vermont now has 1.95 sigma, so it can hit something or the other. The Tier X here...less so at 18-19km

45 minutes ago, Umikami said:

LOOK! OUT ON THE OCEAN! IT'S A BIRD! IT'S A SEAPLANE! IT'S SUPER BB! (So, besides being impossible to kill and being able to sling super damage levels, what does it bring to the game besides a GOD-SHIP that can't be balanced?)

I didn't say it was impossible to kill. It's largely immune to small caliber HE and AP, but one wrong look from a Conqueror? Boom, 16k and 3 fires. Also, these things take huge amounts of regular penetration damage, as well as having a huge and easily farmable superstructure that makes DDs and Smolensk drool.

45 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Not really the way I'm seeing it; I'm seeing it as a low-skill, high ceiling, low-risk/high reward BB line that rewards having the bucks to buy it and punishes everyone else within firing range by being totally OP and very difficult to kill.

I'm smelling a lot of butthurt here. Look, these Battleships are meant to get stuck in, but in a smart way.

Try and play it as a sniper? Nope, Vertical and Horizontal dispersion means that you miss a LOT at range, not to mention the massive amount of deck area real estate that practically begs to be penetrated by long range fire. Midrange? Nope. You're wasting your secondaries. Overextend? You're a dead man. Stick in at 8km and push slowly? You're gonna be having fun.

45 minutes ago, Umikami said:

That's the point ... I don't need to, and neither will WG. A blind man could see that what you're proposing is so OP as to be game breaking. You say it's handling is it's only weakness, yet, in your own words, "they are more mobile than the new Super Standards". Where is the weakness there? And if that is it's ONLY weakness, then we're in trouble.

NO!

Again, smelling a lot of butthurt. The poor handling isn't just one weakness, it's one weakness that also leads to a whole string of problems. You can't turn within island complexes, you can't dodge torpedoes very well. If you have to disengage, these things turn slower than molasses. 

These ships also have a lot of other problems as well. The armor doesn't stand up well to large caliber HE shells, i.e Royal Navy HE, and the massive HP pools means that Damage over Time is a massive detriment, because DoT scales with the HP Pool rather than being a fixed value. 

The guns might have enormous penetration and damage output, but the Tier X has far too much penetration, similar to the Shikishima, which causes overpenetrations on the majority of soft and squishy targets. In addition, until Tier X, the guns are only 380mm-420mm in caliber, which means that you can't overmatch the large majority of high-tier cruiser plating that you face. Sure, the secondary battery is there to compensate, but you sacrifice survivability to make them work, given that they lack any form of improved dispersion curve to boost their accuracy, which would lessen the need for MFCSA, and despite the enormous shell volume, most Destroyer or cruiser players within range of the secondary guns will simply stay undetected or stay out of secondary range; not everyone is that idiotic.

AA is another point of contention. If you have a non-CV game, it's not relevant. If you have a CV game, you can be sure that it will be Swiss-cheesed faster than you can say "[edited]!". Also, CV torpedoes wreak HAVOC on the Tier IX and X, and Richtofen and Haku DBs have a ton of real estate that they can reliably hit in order to score huge amounts of damage ( Heck, Graf Zeppelin is guaranteed double cits ). Midway / Audacious DBs don't have the HE pen to go through the Tier IX / X deck, which was the intended purpose of it in the first place. 

Then we get back to maneuverability. I might have said that they were more mobile than the new USN Standards, but that's a fairly low bar to jump ( About the same as Craigslist's "Ran When Parked" ), given that they are literally floating bricks with  guns. They're slower than their tier mates, on average, they have worse rudder shifts, and they have GIGANTIC turning circles that make the American Fast Battleships look like ballerinas in comparison.

Concealment is also a big issue. These ships are outspotted by almost every other ship at their respective tiers ( Except Bayern, cuz reasons ), and that means that, not only can Battleships disengage far more easily from these ships, but Cruisers can stay undetected and get into a position where they can hurt you, but you can't hurt them.  

Again, READ. It saves me the hassle of having to explain things. Just because I listed all the features in one con-fraggin-sarned go, it doesn't mean that it explains everything. 

( Damn butterfly )

-Shrayes 

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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Woodrow Wilson believed in the League of Nations ....

Jimmy Carter believed he could negotiate the hostages out of Iran .... 

You believe in this ,,,, whatever it is. Good luck with that; you're going to need it.

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3 hours ago, WernerHerzdog said:

The same sigma and dispersion formula as the North Carolina is horrid now?

North Carolina's Sigma is 2.0 not 1.8 with similar dispersion. That means a ton in terms of in game accuracy.

 

@Shrayes_Bhagavatula

I like it. Looks meaty but not too much to deal with. That AA is a nightmare but there's nothing wrong with making CV's work for it a little harder. I think keeping the 4x2 Main armament configuration keeps the ships from being too much as any more firepower may have them start creeping towards too strong. I know how bad German gun accuracy is so these definitely are gonna be brawlers.

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8 hours ago, WernerHerzdog said:

The same sigma and dispersion formula as the North Carolina is horrid now?

Horizontal dispersion and Sigma are the same. Vertical is much, MUCH worse.

-Shrayes

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1 hour ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Horizontal dispersion and Sigma are the same. Vertical is much, MUCH worse.

-Shrayes

Not true for the existing German battleships; the parameters governing vertical dispersion are identical for the Germans and US.

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12 minutes ago, WernerHerzdog said:

Not true for the existing German battleships; the parameters governing vertical dispersion are identical for the Germans and US.

Nope. That's the horizontal dispersion pattern. 

Vertical disperison is not a fixed formula, but it's based upon the shell velocity of the guns. USN Guns tend to have lower shell velocity than average, but that gives them disgusting levels of vertical dispersion, especially at longer ranges. German Battleships tend to have high shell velocity compared to their peers, which gives them very comfortable lead times, but very poor vertical dispersion

For example

NC Vs Bismarck vs Westfalen

  • NC: 702 m/s AP Velocity
  • Bismarck: 820 m/s AP Velocity
  • Westfalen: 800 m/s AP Velocity

Iowa vs FdG vs Ostfriesland

  • Iowa: 762 m/s
  • FdG: 810 m/s w/406mm guns
  • Ostfriesland: 800 m/s 

Montana versus Grosser Kurfurst vs Kaiser Wilhelm II

  • Montana: 762 m/s 
  • Grosser Kurfurst: 800 m/s with 420mm guns
  • Kaiser Wilhelm II: 805 m/s 

In addition, the German guns tend to keep their velocity over range, as opposed to the USN shells, which drop like stones at ranges in excess of 18 kilometers

-Shrayes

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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1 minute ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Vertical disperison is not a fixed formula, but it's based upon the shell velocity of the guns.

Wrong again.

Shell velocity affects the size of the vertical dispersion ellipse on the water, but it doesn't really affect the chance of hitting a ship because the world is three dimensional.

There are several hidden stats that control vertical dispersion, and do affect the chance of hitting a ship. For instance the Japanese BBs have different values which gives them worse vertical dispersion than normal irrespective of ballistics. But German and US have the same.

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1 minute ago, WernerHerzdog said:

Wrong again.

Shell velocity affects the size of the vertical dispersion ellipse on the water, but it doesn't really affect the chance of hitting a ship because the world is three dimensional.

There are several hidden stats that control vertical dispersion, and do affect the chance of hitting a ship. For instance the Japanese BBs have different values which gives them worse vertical dispersion than normal irrespective of ballistics. But German and US have the same.

Then why do French AP shells go everywhere BUT the target? Why do USN AP shells tend to nuke cruisers at all ranges? Why do we complain about "GeRmaN DiSpershun?" 

Vertical disperison values haven't been released by Wargaming, sure, and maybe the USN and German Vertical Dispersion curves are the same, but that does not mean that the 480mm guns of the Kaiser Wilhelm II nor will the 420mm guns of the Westfalen or Ostfriesland will dropkick the ever living crap out of cruisers in the same way that the guns of the NC and the Iowa will, because even if the formulas are the same, the shell velocity of the USN guns means that the shells tend to land towards the center of the ellipse. German shells don't because of their higher velocity. 

Which was my point in the first place.

-Shrayes

 

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10 hours ago, Umikami said:

Woodrow Wilson believed in the League of Nations ....

Jimmy Carter believed he could negotiate the hostages out of Iran .... 

You believe in this ,,,, whatever it is. Good luck with that; you're going to need it.

Well what would you rather have?

Something fun? Or something pointless? 

( To be honest, you seem like one of those people that takes everything at face value and refuses to read any further.  Not to be rude, but I dislike those kinds of people )

-Shrayes

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1 minute ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Then why do French AP shells go everywhere BUT the target? Why do USN AP shells tend to nuke cruisers at all ranges? Why do we complain about "GeRmaN DiSpershun?" 

Confirmation bias mostly. Germany, US, and France have the same vertical dispersion.

France has slightly worse horizontal and some ships have different sigma, and US gets the dispersion upgrade in slot 6 instead of slot 3. Some people will also use slot 3 secondary range on Germans instead of dispersion.

6 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Vertical disperison values haven't been released by Wargaming, sure

You can see the parameters on http://jcw780.github.io/wows_ballistics/, if you select a ship and then click "dispersion". As far as I know the ones labeled Delim, Zero Radius, Max Radius, and Delim Radius are vertical dispersion related.

 

9 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

even if the formulas are the same, the shell velocity of the USN guns means that the shells tend to land towards the center of the ellipse

No, it doesn't mean that at all. US battleships having higher arcs means that shells that go over the ship you shot at will land closer to it - but those shells missed, so you don't really care where they land.

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4 minutes ago, WernerHerzdog said:

You can see the parameters on http://jcw780.github.io/wows_ballistics/, if you select a ship and then click "dispersion". As far as I know the ones labeled Delim, Zero Radius, Max Radius, and Delim Radius are vertical dispersion related

Well....Thanks, actually. I needed this.

I apologize for doubting what you stated. I'll see if I can retune the accuracy of these ships.

-Shrayes

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46 minutes ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

To be honest, you seem like one of those people that takes everything at face value and refuses to read any further.  Not to be rude, but I dislike those kinds of people )

And you seem like one of those guys who has an idea, asks others for their opinions, and then wants to argue with them until they all say how right he is. I ain't that guy, ain't never been that guy, ain't never gonna be that guy, I'm the guy who says what he thinks, diplomacy be damned. You want WG to build a GODSHIP; WG ain't going to do that, ever. I mean, if they didn't do it for RUSSIAN BBs, why would they do it for German ones? This thing is WAY OP; you don't want to believe that, fine. Send it to the development team and hold your breath until it's released.

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26 minutes ago, Umikami said:

And you seem like one of those guys who has an idea, asks others for their opinions, and then wants to argue with them until they all say how right he is. I ain't that guy, ain't never been that guy, ain't never gonna be that guy, I'm the guy who says what he thinks, diplomacy be damned. You want WG to build a GODSHIP; WG ain't going to do that, ever. I mean, if they didn't do it for RUSSIAN BBs, why would they do it for German ones? This thing is WAY OP; you don't want to believe that, fine. Send it to the development team and hold your breath until it's released.

All I was asking was for you to read the entire post. 

The Kaiser Wilhelm is is a good ship, but it is not a god ship, and it never will be. It's far too large ( both in terms of the length of the ship and the massive freeboard )  and takes far too much penetration damage from even 152mm guns, and with a 30 percent torpedo reduction and a length of over a thousand feet, torpedo dodging is easier said than done. Asashio's and Shimakazes will wreak havoc on this ship when hydroacoustic search is not active.

As for your first point, my point was to elaborate on what you mean.  Sure, you did provide reasoning, but just saying things the way you do, being "I'm the guy who says what he thinks, diplomacy be damned", has a tendency to leave people confused and searching for answers.

And again, I'll ask. "What would you rather have than this?" Because I ain't doing Sky Cancer, and I'm not doing anything for cruisers, and I just did a proposal for the USS Maury, so no DDs.

-Shrayes

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Well, because people are inclined to complain, I decided to nerf some things... ( As much as I hate to. Everything was fine, but NOOOOOO, Big Bad Battleships are bad for the Cruiser Mafia, despite the fact that the Kaiser Wilhelm II LITERALLY. OVERPENS. EVERYTHING)

( IX ) Ostfriesland

  • Deck armor reduced from 70mm to 60mm
  • AA DPS of Midrange ring reduced from 485 to 465
  • Rudder Shift increased from 17.9 seconds to 18.9 seconds

( X ) Kaiser Wilhelm II

  • Deck armor reduced from 70mm to 60mm
  • Main Battery Reload increased from 30 to 32 seconds
  • Main Battery AP Alpha reduced from 16,200 to 15,600
  • Reload of 150mm Secondary Batteries increased from 4.8 to 6.0 seconds
  • Replacement of 128mm L/61 KM40 with 128mm L/61 SK C/40
  • Reduction in Long Range DPS from 116 to 113
  • Redution in Midrange DPS from 553 to 513
  • Turning Radius increased from 1,160 meters to 1,190 meters
  • Rudder Shift Time increased from 19.9 seconds to 21.9 seconds
  • Rotation velocity decreased from 3.2* / second to 3.0* / second
  • Hydroacoustic Search Consumable acquisiton parameters decreased from 5.0 / 6.5km to 4.0 / 6.0km
  • Number of Charges of Hydroacoustic Search increased from 2 to 3

There. Happy?

I'm not

-Shrayes

Edit: here's a meme to explain my frustration

4fh05i.jpg

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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Ok, so @Shrayes_Bhagavatula, I haven't gotten the change to comment on this until now and believe me, I have been impatiently waiting to see how you were going to follow up your other line and this is... well not as doom and gloom and Wheraboo god tier whatever, that others are making it out to be but I will say that the changes are welcome. Understand, if the idea you were going for ultimately was "counter HE spam" BBs, then well you did go a tad overboard methinks. It was very clearly telegraphed to me when I read through your first proposal on the Ost and KWII that those ships were supposed to just absorb DoT and HE spam which does indeed create an imbalance, no matter how much everyone wants to complain (myself included). Despite the, lets say... overzealousness of WG to bring out ships that are, lets face it flamethrowers they really don't have much else to hard counter ships bigger than them. BBs can and should outrange them, Most CA's should as well. And the only thing they were really good for was AA defense, shore bombardment and counter destroyer operations in RL, but in an arena based MOBA like this, no WG would never take it seriously. 

Now, that being said, I think you could tweak the rudder shift back down and it would be okay and if you want to create a happy medium for your deck armor, ~65mm might be okay? But everything else is entirely sensible. One other thing I would recommend though, would be to give the Ost the option to mount the newer 42cm guns in addition to the 40.6cm ones. Ideally, I would recommend that your Kronprinz have the exact same gun option as well for better... um, flow if that is the word I'm looking for? Otherwise, I still like what I see! :cap_like:

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22 minutes ago, Trophy_Wench said:

Ok, so @Shrayes_Bhagavatula, I haven't gotten the change to comment on this until now and believe me, I have been impatiently waiting to see how you were going to follow up your other line and this is... well not as doom and gloom and Wheraboo god tier whatever, that others are making it out to be but I will say that the changes are welcome. Understand, if the idea you were going for ultimately was "counter HE spam" BBs, then well you did go a tad overboard methinks. It was very clearly telegraphed to me when I read through your first proposal on the Ost and KWII that those ships were supposed to just absorb DoT and HE spam which does indeed create an imbalance, no matter how much everyone wants to complain (myself included). Despite the, lets say... overzealousness of WG to bring out ships that are, lets face it flamethrowers they really don't have much else to hard counter ships bigger than them. BBs can and should outrange them, Most CA's should as well. And the only thing they were really good for was AA defense, shore bombardment and counter destroyer operations in RL, but in an arena based MOBA like this, no WG would never take it seriously. 

Now, that being said, I think you could tweak the rudder shift back down and it would be okay and if you want to create a happy medium for your deck armor, ~65mm might be okay? But everything else is entirely sensible. One other thing I would recommend though, would be to give the Ost the option to mount the newer 42cm guns in addition to the 40.6cm ones. Ideally, I would recommend that your Kronprinz have the exact same gun option as well for better... um, flow if that is the word I'm looking for? Otherwise, I still like what I see! :cap_like:

Thanks, Trophy. Of course, the intention was that they would absorb small caliber damage, but they would be very vulnerable to Damage Over Time, given the huge HP pools. I mean, the Kurfurst already suffers quite badly from DoT,  and the KWII would have it way worse because of a nearly 12,000 HP increase. ( Remember, Damage over Time scales with a ship's HP pool; it's not a fixed value ).

Also, the Ostfriesland has 420mm guns. It never got the 406mm guns. Also, I might re-tweak the deck armor back to 65mm, as I originally intended it. ( Though that does worry me in the sense that Midway still has enough pen to dump all over it, and it's not like it's gonna miss ). As for the Kronprinz, I wan't to keep it to the 406mm guns because I wanted to keep the caliber at 406mm for the Raider Line as a whole. I probably won't change it. MAYBE if we find designs for a higher velocity version of the 406mm guns with better penetration ( like, 55 calibers long and 830 m/s velocity ), then perhaps I'll change the guns on the KP

-Shrayes

Edit: I just realized that I wrote the 420mm guns as 406mm guns. I'm a tater tot.

Edited by Shrayes_Bhagavatula

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3 hours ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Well, because people are inclined to complain, I decided to nerf some things... ( As much as I hate to. Everything was fine, but NOOOOOO, Big Bad Battleships are bad for the Cruiser Mafia, despite the fact that the Kaiser Wilhelm II LITERALLY. OVERPENS. EVERYTHING)

Edit: here's a meme to explain my frustration

4fh05i.jpg

I mean, it doesn't really matter to cruisers. For most cruisers that tier 10 ship is probably less of a threat than an Ohio.

But if you compare the version in the unedited post to the Yamato, it has about the same firepower with its main guns and it's a whole lot tankier, only at the expense of a worse turret layout. If you compare it to the GK (not that a tier 10 BB can't be better than the GK) it has 32 mm overmatch at the expense of some DPM, better accuracy, better penetration, better armor against HE, (I think) better firing angles, better secondaries, better hydro, 10% more health, even better torpedo protection. All I can see that it loses are some main gun DPM (but it's a BB and losing DPM for overmatch is often a good trade, see Montana vs Ohio) and some maneuverability and concealment (but GK already has near 0 of those).

2 hours ago, Shrayes_Bhagavatula said:

Thanks, Trophy. Of course, the intention was that they would absorb small caliber damage, but they would be very vulnerable to Damage Over Time, given the huge HP pools. I mean, the Kurfurst already suffers quite badly from DoT,  and the KWII would have it way worse because of a nearly 12,000 HP increase. ( Remember, Damage over Time scales with a ship's HP pool; it's not a fixed value ).

That's not quite how it works. It takes more absolute damage from fires because of the larger HP pool, but it has a larger HP pool to absorb that damage. As a percentage of HP, it takes the same damage from fires as a GK, but less damage from shell and torpedo alpha, so the larger HP pool is a straight upgrade. Fires are proportionally more important only because it's tankier against alpha damage.

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