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Midnitewolf

Radio Location - Boon or Bane for a DD?

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So I currently run my Ostergotland with Radio Location but I got thinking about it and I am trying to figure out if it is a boon or a bane for me and really DDs in general.

The pros of Radio Location are:

1) Makes it hard to get ambushed.

2) Allows for you to get your guns on target prior to engaging so there is no lag or delay in those situations

3) You can use it to hunt down ships (usually DDs) you can't spot.

4) Can often use it to tell how far the nearest ship is from you if you can spot a ship that the indicator is obviously looking at.

5) Can under some circumstances use radio location to torp unspotted targets, especially those sitting in smoke.

There are probably a few other advantages too..  However I realized there is one huge disadvantage to using Radio Location and that is,  as the enemy, if you get the "Located" warning, you immediately know a DD is near because lets face it, aside from a very, very few cruiser, only DDs use this skill.  This I would expect would lead to the enemy in question having a heightened awareness which could prompt them to start immediately taking evasive action or just be on the lookout for torps.  This made me wonder how many torpedo runs were outright spoiled by running Radio Location. 

Now obviously, they get alerted anyway by getting the detected message but unless they are operating alone and know that no enemy BBs or Cruisers are near them, detection could be from anyone or anything and if your in the thick of things or already know your spotted by a cruiser or BB you were engaging your not going to think twice about having the detected warning on your screen.  Even with Priority Target, one more person targeting you more less often will be ignored but when that "Located" warning pops up that immediately says, "DD close".

So my question is if, aside from DDs specifically hunting other DDs, Radio Location advantages are actually worth the warning you are giving enemy ships that you are in the area when the "Located" warning pops up.  I am also wondering if having radio location might not actually be a huge disadvantage for torp-centric DDs.  Finally considering the warning you give your enemies, couldn't those 4 points be better used elsewhere like in the case of the Ostergotland with its abysmal firing range, getting AFT instead.

What do you all think?

 

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Honestly I don't think enough players give much thought about being located by RPF, much less are able to triangulate your position based on it. 

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I have RPF on both Gearing and Daring, so far I like it for mostly the reasons you stated.

However, the thing I remember most is that I had to get used to ignoring it. The reason is, when you go after DDs you think tend to look for the 'closest' contact, however if there are multiple DDs or ships out there with better concealment than you focusing on RPF can lead to you tunnel visioning very easily. So I had to learn to 'ignore' RPF to not tunnel vision.

With Gearing, RPF can also be very useful early on in game to torpedo approaches or for the general 'area denial torpedoes'.

The 'located' notification is helpful when you are looking for a DD, but only really helpful when you have a well positioned team or good communication with other players. I found Priority Target much more helpful against surprise torpedoes, though.

Overall I think it is really a question of how you play and if there are better alternatives. AFT certainly is an option, though you have to consider the increase in gun bloom as well as the ballistics of your shells. With floaty or slow shells actually hitting something beyond 13km is very tricky.

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Mostly a boon for DD's.

A DD using it knows the general direction of the nearest enemy ship, and with experience can make an educated guess as to what and where said enemy ship is without triangulation.

The ship that's detected knows that it is the closest ship to something Radio Location, it doesn't have a direction, doesn't know what ship actually has it, and really doesn't know if there's a DD nearby, or if he's just the nearest ship to a cruiser that's 15km away with a DD potentially even closer.

 

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Just now, PotatoMD said:

Honestly I don't think enough players give much thought about being located by RPF, much less are able to triangulate your position based on it. 

Its not so much as triangulating as it just gives them a warning a DD is in the area.   For example, and maybe I am the exception, but if I get the "Located" warning pop up,  I immediately become wary of a DD being around and if I am in a BB or a Cruiser, I will start taking at least minor levels of evasive action like varying my speed or course just to make it a bit harder for a DD launching torps at me to land one on my nose.   I also start looking for more people suddenly starting to target me or quickly targeting me and  then targeting off me as that could be an indication of a DD targetting me just long enough to launch torps at the indicator.  I don't tend to do that as much when I am not getting the "Located" warning as a reinforcement to everything else.   This of course makes me wonder how many other people do this.

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The usefulness of that info highly depends on the player's map awareness.

For players who focus on countering the enemy DD, RL is useful as it allows you to track them and helps prevent surprise encounters. For example back when DDs were relevant in CBs, I would take RL on my DDs to keep track of enemy movements. 

For experienced DD players who can predict enemy ship movements, then RPF may not provide any new info. At that point, RPF becomes a 4pt waste better spent on combat-oriented skills like BFT. I actually never run RL in randoms because I don't need RPF to tell me where the DDs are going. I would rather have extra firepower instead. 

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1 minute ago, Midnitewolf said:

Its not so much as triangulating as it just gives them a warning a DD is in the area.   For example, and maybe I am the exception, but if I get the "Located" warning pop up,  I immediately become wary of a DD being around and if I am in a BB or a Cruiser, I will start taking at least minor levels of evasive action like varying my speed or course just to make it a bit harder for a DD launching torps at me to land one on my nose.   I also start looking for more people suddenly starting to target me or quickly targeting me and  then targeting off me as that could be an indication of a DD targetting me just long enough to launch torps at the indicator.  I don't tend to do that as much when I am not getting the "Located" warning as a reinforcement to everything else.   This of course makes me wonder how many other people do this.

For me, the important thing is the "Spotted" indicator. "Located" isn't very useful unless I'm in a DD, because in most cases a cruiser or BB will be seen long before the DD ever will be. About all it's good for is having a DD sneaking into the backfield. Knowing how many people are targeting you is also largely useless, If I'm exposing myself to fire, I have to assume it's going to be everyone that has line of fire on me, because it can and will change in the time it takes me to do whatever I'm doing.

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It's very powerful as a dd, and against dd.

Here you will see me use rdf to kill a dd and get first blood, proc Yamamoto and win the game with those consumable.

 

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26 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

Radio Location - Boon or Bane for a DD?

By Midnitewolf,

So I currently run my Ostergotland with Radio Location but I got thinking about it and I am trying to figure out if it is a boon or a bane for me and really DDs in general.

The pros of Radio Location are:

1) Makes it hard to get ambushed.

2) Allows for you to get your guns on target prior to engaging so there is no lag or delay in those situations

3) You can use it to hunt down ships (usually DDs) you can't spot.

4) Can often use it to tell how far the nearest ship is from you if you can spot a ship that the indicator is obviously looking at.

5) Can under some circumstances use radio location to torp unspotted targets, especially those sitting in smoke.

There are probably a few other advantages too..  However I realized there is one huge disadvantage to using Radio Location and that is,  as the enemy, if you get the "Located" warning, you immediately know a DD is near because lets face it, aside from a very, very few cruiser, only DDs use this skill.  This I would expect would lead to the enemy in question having a heightened awareness which could prompt them to start immediately taking evasive action or just be on the lookout for torps.  This made me wonder how many torpedo runs were outright spoiled by running Radio Location. 

Now obviously, they get alerted anyway by getting the detected message but unless they are operating alone and know that no enemy BBs or Cruisers are near them, detection could be from anyone or anything and if your in the thick of things or already know your spotted by a cruiser or BB you were engaging your not going to think twice about having the detected warning on your screen.  Even with Priority Target, one more person targeting you more less often will be ignored but when that "Located" warning pops up that immediately says, "DD close".

So my question is if, aside from DDs specifically hunting other DDs, Radio Location advantages are actually worth the warning you are giving enemy ships that you are in the area when the "Located" warning pops up.  I am also wondering if having radio location might not actually be a huge disadvantage for torp-centric DDs.  Finally considering the warning you give your enemies, couldn't those 4 points be better used elsewhere like in the case of the Ostergotland with its abysmal firing range, getting AFT instead.

What do you all think?

 

Radio Location is an "optional" Captain's Skill that is nice to have, if you have the spare skill points.

Works best when opposing ships are few in number (was used extensively by my opponents and on certain ships myself during the 1 vs. 1 Ranked battles last year).

Gives you a rough bearing to the closest opposing ship.  This information can change as ships change position on the map.
Other ships can use this skill, too.  Allies and Opposing ships may be just as skilled as you.
Opposing ship gets a notification that they've been radio located.

Does not give you "range to target".  
Would need a friendly ship working with you to use their RL and your RL to perform triangulation in order to get an approximate distance to target.

CV's are excluded from using this skill.
BB's could take it, but rarely do.
Ships that take this skill tend to hunt DD's or are DD's that want to know what direction their closest opposition is in.

They're your skill points.  Use 'em however you want.

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I would say, for a Torp boat is even more critical because above anything else, you don't want to get caught pants down by a dedicated DD hunter, so it is helpful to avoiding nasty surprises. Also, given you won't critically need extra range or firepower for your guns, you may as well expend the points in RPF as an insurance policy. 

Having said that, I don't run RPF in any of my boats because I don't have high enough level on my captains, and there's always more vital and useful stuff to select up to at leas 14-15 pts. In my IJN torp boats, I'll be getting the RPF as last skill, in my other boats, I'm not so sure unless I want to go for a full dedicated DD hunter build in something like a Daring.

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It's super important. 

1. Destroyer: If there's not rdf in front of you, you know 

a. safe to cap

b. can tell team where push is going

c. can tell if someone is coming to you or away from you

 

2. Cruiser

a. safe to cap

b. Where DD is and never get torpedoed

c. Where other ships are if you need to run and let the points decide the game

 

3. Battleship

a. If there a destroyer spotting me and what side

b. Is cap empty or not (no dd, can push)

c. Where is remaining enemy hiding

Edited by Cit_the_bed

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Use RL for a bad detect DD so you know where you closest threat is. DO not use it on a low detect torpedo DD, never let them know where you are.

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16 minutes ago, Cit_the_bed said:

Only unskilled players will not realize how amazingly important radio direction is. It's super important. 

1. Destroyer: If there's not rdf in front of you, you know 

a. safe to cap

b. can tell team where push is going

c. can tell if someone is coming to you or away from you

 

2. Cruiser

a. safe to cap

b. Where DD is and never get torpedoed

c. Where other ships are if you need to run and let the points decide the game

 

3. Battleship

a. If there a destroyer spotting me and what side

b. Is cap empty or not (no dd, can push)

c. Where is remaining enemy hiding

I use RPF on almost all my DDs. The one I do not I find that I miss it.

Especially my gunboats ( friesland )  when I want to hunt DDs.

I know it will never happen and it would be way too realistic but we should be able to toggle RPF on and off at will like any other Aiming or Radar/Hydro device.

This SHOULD be available to us.

Never gonna happen though.

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RDF is good for DD hunters and slightly less so for gunboat DDs.

RDF can be problematic for stealthy torpedo boats that flank or get behind the enemy and spot for their team.

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6 minutes ago, C14Alpha said:

RDF is good for DD hunters and slightly less so for gunboat DDs.

RDF can be problematic for stealthy torpedo boats that flank or get behind the enemy and spot for their team.

Its RL, two years ago. RL 

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I like RPF on Shimakaze and Des Moines so I can more or less pin point their location or avoid nasty surprise (the like of a DD sailing at the edge of the map and poping up on your broadside when disengaging).

 

But for random, it's usually worth replacing it with a skill to either increase your survivability or DPM.

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I use RDF on two of my DD captains, one French with AFT instead of CE it has poor concealment and when firing, a lot your bloom is even worse. One IJN DD captain, lets me know where the rush is coming from and where the last ships left are so they are easier to find. And a IJN CA captain for the previous reasons and to hunt DDs. If there is a gap between several island it lets me know which channel to spam torps down.

The located notification is useful but to know if a torp DD is launching your PT is more useful. When you are first targeted on the PT it is most likely guns but when you see it drop off and come back up the DD has switched to torp targeting and is probably launching, or thinking about it. One trick against bots is turn off the targeting then launch, seems they know when you are launching.

I guess it depends on how badly you need the points for something else. Going to 21 points may change things

P.S. I play PvE so your mileage may vary in PvP.

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16 minutes ago, Sweetsie said:

Its RL, two years ago. RL 

It really should be RDF because that what it is in the real world. But it does not work like it does here in the real world anyway, the ship has to be transmitting something and it would pick up all the transmitting ships.

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It’s a very useful skill but can be a bit of a crutch as it makes me a little lazy. I have it on the majority of my DD’s as standard build but on those I don’t I feel “naked” and a bit less confident.

Its very useful for area denial torping as from the location I can look at the map and am pretty confident I know where the ship is. Especially if contesting a cap! Also useful for hunting down the last ship if you need the kill/points to win the game.

I run it on my DM and A Nevsky so I know where to have my guns pointed before popping the radar!

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2 hours ago, Midnitewolf said:

, aside from a very, very few cruiser, only DDs use this skill. 

I use RDF alot of CA/CL/BC because it lets me know where the torps will be coming from and helps the CA that dont have radar hunt down dd by running them down.

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1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

I would say, for a Torp boat is even more critical because above anything else, you don't want to get caught pants down by a dedicated DD hunter, so it is helpful to avoiding nasty surprises. Also, given you won't critically need extra range or firepower for your guns, you may as well expend the points in RPF as an insurance policy. 

Having said that, I don't run RPF in any of my boats because I don't have high enough level on my captains, and there's always more vital and useful stuff to select up to at leas 14-15 pts. In my IJN torp boats, I'll be getting the RPF as last skill, in my other boats, I'm not so sure unless I want to go for a full dedicated DD hunter build in something like a Daring.

Well to be honest, I am kind of having the same issue.  The EU DDs, while having very interesting, spamable, high speed torps, are still hybrids and I find that I am using guns a lot on them as well.  Unfortunately they have absolutely horrible gun range, I think max something like 10.1 km. For a DD without smoke that make the guns a bit painful to use and I often find myself just short of having the range to safely engage enemy targets with guns.  AFT would actually give the EU DDs an extra 2km and put them on par with most other DDs as far as range.   However, the only 4 points I could give up are from radio location because the torp skills are just too useful to pass up on these DDs.

Also, the other reason I started asking myself about RL comes from watching video guides about how to play these DDs.  I really haven't been much of a DD player for a long, long time so consider me new to playing them for the most part and the one overwhelming thing I noticed in the videos that wasn't occurring in my battles was people just blissfully sailing alone allowing me to land torp hits without any effort.  However, every video has multiple ships doing just that so I had to ask why that never occurs for me.  It seems that in my battles, 9 times out of 10, hell maybe even 9.9 times out of 10, whenever I am near, even if I haven't been detected recently,  NO ONE sails in a straight line and everyone suddenly starts changing course and speed dramatically like they know I am getting ready to torp them.  I even start using the old "Mark I Eyeball" aiming system but still never seem to get those easy targets just sailing into my torps.   This got me questioning if these ships were somehow reacting to getting the message they were "Located".

Seems like the consensuses is that no one pays attention to being located so use it if you can afford to get it in your build.  

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RPD is a very useful skill to have at tier 7 and below... In these tiers, Radar is not available and hydro is limited. I use it to inform my CV or my fleet, where the closets ship is roughly located.

The stingy way to play RPD, not sharing that information with no one.

Tiers 8 and above... I say its still useful to runaway from your nearest target, or to throw 10 torps and pray to the porcelain gods.

DDs without it, are at a disadvantage without it. So I say take the skill of all DDs class ships.

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5 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

Also, the other reason I started asking myself about RL comes from watching video guides about how to play these DDs.  I really haven't been much of a DD player for a long, long time so consider me new to playing them for the most part and the one overwhelming thing I noticed in the videos that wasn't occurring in my battles was people just blissfully sailing alone allowing me to land torp hits without any effort.  However, every video has multiple ships doing just that so I had to ask why that never occurs for me.  It seems that in my battles, 9 times out of 10, hell maybe even 9.9 times out of 10, whenever I am near, even if I haven't been detected recently,  NO ONE sails in a straight line and everyone suddenly starts changing course and speed dramatically like they know I am getting ready to torp them.  I even start using the old "Mark I Eyeball" aiming system but still never seem to get those easy targets just sailing into my torps.   This got me questioning if these ships were somehow reacting to getting the message they were "Located".

Seems like the consensuses is that no one pays attention to being located so use it if you can afford to get it in your build.  

I can't really tell you from experience how much effect it has on target players, but I can tell it definitively has an effect on me. I would be lying if I tell you it doesn't make me nervous and extra careful. Having experience playing without RPF, I find fairly easy to surprise people confidently sailing straight. You might have a valid point there but I don't have the experience to corroborate or not. Otoh, in situations when you most need it AKA end match, that problem is not as relevant because there are fewer ships and being located doesn't necessarily mean impending danger. Also, by match end if you go against a DD with RPF in a DD without RPF (and this happens to me a lot) it is a clear handicap, I always feel "naked" in that situation and much more restricted in my playing options.

In the end I think it is a balance between easier targets at early match vs safety and more information in the later match.

 

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Had a ballsy DD with DF against my shimikaze in Epiccenter ranked. His detection radius was a little smaller than mine own. SO he continued to fire torps down the direction his direction finder kept updating as I moved across the map. Not too accurate but enough to cause problems.

Radar would have dug him up nicely. But no we don't have those on DD's

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