Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
TheGreatBlasto

CV Airwing Sizes?

18 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,133
[BROOK]
Banned
2,260 posts

Just a general question about WOWS CVs. 

Does the airwing size of in-game carriers match their historical counterparts?

As an example, does the digital Enterprise have a limit of about 80-90 planes like the real one?

Does a smaller carrier such as the Langley only have about 30-40?

Or are CV airwings like torpedos in that they just keep generating until the clock runs out?

 

I have seen CV's complain in game chat that they are out of planes. OTOH I have also read that some CVs, like the Kaga, never stop generating planes -- at least not until the game ends.

So which is it?

:Smile_child:

  • Boring 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,637 posts
42,248 battles

Originally in RTS, WG tried to be true to capacity or balance dictated a limit. But that means a CV could literally run out of planes because you didn't get more.

Rework CVs have a starting inventory based on balance so it seems, but a regen feature allows for replacement planes. The rate varies from CV to CV and plane type.

This has caused some misconceptions about CVs having unlimited planes.

Yet nobody complains about unlimited ammo on other ships either 😏.

 

 

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,378
[A-D-F]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,268 posts

Nearly nothing about "specs" in this game is accurate.  Video games strive to be as fair and balanced as possible.    So numbers and stats are constantly adjusted to try to achieve fairness and fun.

The goal in actual war in the real world, is to use violence and harm to win, as unfairly as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,342
[S0L0]
[S0L0]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
4,734 posts
7,251 battles
52 minutes ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

I have seen CV's complain in game chat that they are out of planes. OTOH I have also read that some CVs, like the Kaga, never stop generating planes -- at least not until the game ends.

So which is it?

:Smile_child:

The CVs were more than likely just waiting on regen of planes.. which is pretty slow for almost all carriers.. It's pretty rare that a carrier is completely out of planes.. but it does happen.  A CV player can pretty much, with careless play, or very late   in a match, be very short on planes.. add to this - as match goes on and squadrons become smaller in size they take a much quicker beating from AA and are also not able to put out as much damage as full squadrons due to rapid attrition to AA.    FTR,   Kaga does not really have quick regeneration of planes compared to many other CVs... it just has a ton of them to start out with..   A quick perusal of the wiki will answer your question on all CV issues... even a quick forum search would have brought up multiple threads containing this subject matter.. But, of course, that's no fun is it?      

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
22 posts
722 battles

Think of planes the same way you think of Mana in other games. Yes, it's unlimited.. but you can still run out. Here, you almost always do run out too.. it's not uncommon to end a match sending out flights of planes that are severely reduced in number, and those can end up doing nothing if they're shot down before getting a hit in.

  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,485
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
28,708 posts
24,985 battles
2 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Originally in RTS, WG tried to be true to capacity or balance dictated a limit. But that means a CV could literally run out of planes because you didn't get more.

Rework CVs have a starting inventory based on balance so it seems, but a regen feature allows for replacement planes. The rate varies from CV to CV and plane type.

This has caused some misconceptions about CVs having unlimited planes.

Yet nobody complains about unlimited ammo on other ships either 😏.

 

 

The two biggest extremes in the CV Rebork era are Enterprise and Saipan.

 

Enterprise has lower tier planes that are squishier but she regens planes very fast.  I.e. Lexington's stock F6F Hellcats and not Lexi's upgraded Corsairs.  The rockets are also weaker FFAR than the better HVAR types Lexi has.  I imagine a competent Enterprise player can play a certain way to limit aircraft losses while the fast regen ensures their squads maintain good strength... Enough to have high strength squads late into a game where they really start getting aggressive.

 

Saipan the same tier has higher tier planes.  Matter of fact, they're Tier X Midway's upgraded planes, F8 Bearcats and BTD Destroyer bombers.  The catch for Saipan is that her higher powered planes are vulnerable to attrition.  She has among the worst aircraft regen rates in the game.  Saipan has strong squadrons for her tier but if her user messes up with a few bad runs losing lots of planes, then she's kind of out of the picture.  It would take her ages to recover lost planes.

 

A bunch of CVs are somewhere in between Enterprise's fast regen and Saipan's "She regens planes???"  Ark Royal in Tier VI also has very fast regen.  Indomitable in Tier VIII is also on the slow side of regen, to the point that LWM emphasizes it quite a bit in her review for her.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
482 posts
209 battles
2 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Originally in RTS, WG tried to be true to capacity or balance dictated a limit. But that means a CV could literally run out of planes because you didn't get more.

Rework CVs have a starting inventory based on balance so it seems, but a regen feature allows for replacement planes. The rate varies from CV to CV and plane type.

This has caused some misconceptions about CVs having unlimited planes.

Yet nobody complains about unlimited ammo on other ships either 😏.

 

 

 

 

How WG did the CV rework

 

 

 

PS - Planes are not ammo.  Planes carry ammo, ships carry ammo.  these shouldn't be confused.

Edited by Laser_Beam
  • Cool 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
710
[NUWES]
Members
3,283 posts
11,849 battles
3 hours ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

Just a general question about WOWS CVs. 

Does the airwing size of in-game carriers match their historical counterparts?

As an example, does the digital Enterprise have a limit of about 80-90 planes like the real one?

Does a smaller carrier such as the Langley only have about 30-40?

Or are CV airwings like torpedos in that they just keep generating until the clock runs out?

 

I have seen CV's complain in game chat that they are out of planes. OTOH I have also read that some CVs, like the Kaga, never stop generating planes -- at least not until the game ends.

So which is it?

:Smile_child:

Thematically, carriers in game have similar proportional capacity but the numbers don't correspond 1 for 1. Also remember, that fighters from the consumable and from the automatic CAP don't count against any total. In general CVs which had high capacities in the real world tend to have high capacities in the game too but it is modified to make them fit and bigger CVs will tend to operate more planes (and be higher tier) than small ones.

USN CVs historically operated the largest airgroups, followed by the IJN followed by the RN. IJN capacities were closer to the USN than to the RN but were still smaller. The early war USN CVs used large unarmored hangars and deck parking so they could operate up to about 90 planes (Lexington and Yorktown classes). Early war IJN CVs tended to be about 60-70 due to no deck park and smaller enclosed hangars. RN early war CVs (Illustrious class mainly, and Ark Royal being a big exception) tended to be about 40-50 early war due to small hangars caused by the armored flightdecks and no deck park. They gat the numbers up a bit later by employing USN-style deck parks.

The KM never operated any CVs in the real world so a lot of that is guesswork and approximation, but GZ's stated operating capacity was pretty abysmal for such a large ship. SHe was slated to carry about 40 planes but her compressed air catapults could only effectively launch about half that total before being depleted and requiring time to recharge. Thus, in game, the USN and IJN CVs tend to have larger capacities with the RN and the KM lagging behind. Also, a fleet CV like Lexington or Shokaku has more planes than a CVL like Saipan. 

In answer to your other question, all CVs DO keep generating planes until the clock runs out but some have regens so slow that they can't regen a meaningful number. For example, if your attack planes are wiped out in Saipan you might get a couple back over the entire rest of the game but it won't get enough back to make a difference. It is functionally deplaned. It simply has to avoid taking losses in the first place. Enterprise, on the other hand, has a regen that its almost 4x as fast on its attack aircraft so I can put a competent partial squadron back in the air in a couple of minutes even from zero. It can still be deplaned but it won't stay that way for long assuming there is time left in the game, where as for Saipan deplanings are basically permanent. I think those are the two most extreme examples. 

Edited by Tzarevitch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
984
[HC]
[HC]
Beta Testers
3,369 posts
13,031 battles
3 hours ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

Just a general question about WOWS CVs. 

Does the airwing size of in-game carriers match their historical counterparts?

As an example, does the digital Enterprise have a limit of about 80-90 planes like the real one?

Does a smaller carrier such as the Langley only have about 30-40?

Or are CV airwings like torpedos in that they just keep generating until the clock runs out?

 

I have seen CV's complain in game chat that they are out of planes. OTOH I have also read that some CVs, like the Kaga, never stop generating planes -- at least not until the game ends.

So which is it?

:Smile_child:

RTS, it was kept close to accurate, though some liberties were taken in the name of balance.

Currently, most CV's have fewer aircraft ready to go than the hangar capacity that they had under RTS, but they will continue to generate replacement planes throughout the match.

In theory, current CV's can lose more planes than they could have under RTS. Realistically, once you factor in flight time to target, time to make attacks, short waits for full squads of the planes types you want, and taking time out to keep the autopilot from killing you, most CV's can lose about as many aircraft as they could before.

Running out of planes isn't as cut and dried as it was before. Under RTS, once you lost enough aircraft to be ineffective, you were done. Go spot a little, and if the red CV still had fighters, you weren't doing that for long either. Rework CV's cannot have as many aircraft in the air at the same time as they used to, so they can't lose them as quickly. Add in that plane regeneration will slowly replace the losses, so instead of being losing planes to the point of uselessness, now if your planes get shot up, you might have a useful number later in the match. It might look like the planes are unlimited, but that's too simple a way of looking at it.

There's now 2 things that can happen to a CV:

1) They can actually lose all their planes - it happens very rarely, but if it happens late enough in a match, the CV's as useless as it was in RTS.

2) A CV can run out/low of the the planes it needs/wants - Even happens to Kaga when bottom tier. Each plane a CV carries is good for certain things, and in some cases are mostly useless for anything else. If you're in an IJN CV, and need to deal with DD's, you're out of luck if the rocket planes are shot up, need to attack high tier ships with good defenses, better hope you've still got torpedo bombers. Again, if it happens late enough in a game, regen won't provide you a useful number of planes before the end of a match.

 

There's also a few oddballs in the Premium CV's, Kaga was poor regen for her loss rate, but isnane front loaded reserves, so she really can look like she has endless planes (it's not bottomless, the well is just very deep). Saipan has terrible regen, and despite having tier 10 planes, is very vulnerable to deplaning, especially from things that just kill planes (like fighter consumables). Enterprise and Ark Royal just have good regen, so running out of  even your favorite plane type is a temporary situation. Indomitable has a very low loss rate, good front loaded reserves, and  enough regen so it's rare she actually runs out of anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,072
[WOLFG]
Members
31,234 posts
9,589 battles
4 hours ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

I have seen CV's complain in game chat that they are out of planes. OTOH I have also read that some CVs, like the Kaga, never stop generating planes -- at least not until the game ends.

So which is it?

:Smile_child:

Technically, they aren't out of planes, but once you get down to 1-3 planes per squadron, you don't have extra planes to soak damage and let a strike through, so all you can really do at that point is spot or feed the enemy planes.

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
984
[HC]
[HC]
Beta Testers
3,369 posts
13,031 battles
47 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

The KM never operated any CVs in the real world so a lot of that is guesswork and approximation, but GZ's stated operating capacity was pretty abysmal for such a large ship. SHe was slated to carry about 40 planes but her compressed air catapults could only effectively launch about half that total before being depleted and requiring time to recharge. Thus, in game, the USN and IJN CVs tend to have larger capacities with the RN and the KM lagging behind. Also, a fleet CV like Lexington or Shokaku has more planes than a CVL like Saipan. 

With Graf Zeppelin, there's 3 load out numbers floating around, of which only the first two really matter.

The Original 1939 version, where they're looking at 40ish aircraft, this was Bf-109T's AND Ju-87C's. With the dual hangars, this was hilarious, and almost what you'd expect from someone that had only parked aircraft on land.

There's the 1941/42 loadout, where the KM was looking at 70-80ish aircraft, with Me-155's (Navalized Bf-109G's with folding wings) and an unnamed Ju-87 replacement. It used a small deck park and was reasonable, almost like the KM actually listened to the Japanese or saw what the USN was doing.

There's also something really late war with upwards of 150-250 aircraft, with no types specified, and having no chance of actually happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,133
[BROOK]
Banned
2,260 posts

Wow! Thank you to all who responded. This thread is like a PhD from Annapolis in carrier operations.   

 

I'm looking forward to the day i finally move my Enterprise and Ark Royal out of coop games and into randoms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
76
[Q50]
Beta Testers
123 posts
2,211 battles
4 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Originally in RTS, WG tried to be true to capacity or balance dictated a limit. But that means a CV could literally run out of planes because you didn't get more.

Rework CVs have a starting inventory based on balance so it seems, but a regen feature allows for replacement planes. The rate varies from CV to CV and plane type.

This has caused some misconceptions about CVs having unlimited planes.

Yet nobody complains about unlimited ammo on other ships either 😏.

 

 

There is no "misconception". I've personally seen tier 10 CVs lose 80+ planes throughout a game and still have half-strength squadrons to fight with until time ran out.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
882
[BOTES]
Members
2,235 posts
8,550 battles
4 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Originally in RTS, WG tried to be true to capacity or balance dictated a limit. But that means a CV could literally run out of planes because you didn't get more.

Rework CVs have a starting inventory based on balance so it seems, but a regen feature allows for replacement planes. The rate varies from CV to CV and plane type.

This has caused some misconceptions about CVs having unlimited planes.

Yet nobody complains about unlimited ammo on other ships either 😏.

It isn't a misconception. If a round didn't have a time limit, the CV would continue to regenerate planes. Thus, it is infinite. By your logic, infinity itself is finite because there are time constraints to reality.

Rhetorical debates are a red herring by design. It doesn't matter what you call the current system; the planes come back even if you shoot them down, resulting in scenarios where a CV deals damage at a heavy cost and the losses don't matter because their ability to strike late game is unaffected. The prior system was not like this; your losses were permanent and could not be recouped. This also causes problems with AA interaction; players used to deliberately target the planes that were a larger threat to them. Now it doesn't matter if you save your DFAA for the TBs instead of the DBs because you can't actually cripple a CV. He'll have both options later on no matter what you do. You can also predrop to save planes, which makes DFAA even weaker because you have fewer planes to shoot at.

The statistical fact of the matter remains that CVs are dealing more damage than before the rework. They're fielding fewer planes than their pre-rework hangars allowed for excluding losses from their new fighter consumables and plane kill averages are down across the board.

I'm glad you have your own narcissistic definition of infinity, but nobody is buying it. Before the rework, planes were finite. If something is not finite, what is it? Infinite.

Edited by awildseaking
  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
482 posts
209 battles
2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The two biggest extremes in the CV Rebork era are Enterprise and Saipan.

 

Enterprise has lower tier planes that are squishier but she regens planes very fast.  I.e. Lexington's stock F6F Hellcats and not Lexi's upgraded Corsairs.  The rockets are also weaker FFAR than the better HVAR types Lexi has.  I imagine a competent Enterprise player can play a certain way to limit aircraft losses while the fast regen ensures their squads maintain good strength... Enough to have high strength squads late into a game where they really start getting aggressive.

 

Saipan the same tier has higher tier planes.  Matter of fact, they're Tier X Midway's upgraded planes, F8 Bearcats and BTD Destroyer bombers.  The catch for Saipan is that her higher powered planes are vulnerable to attrition.  She has among the worst aircraft regen rates in the game.  Saipan has strong squadrons for her tier but if her user messes up with a few bad runs losing lots of planes, then she's kind of out of the picture.  It would take her ages to recover lost planes.

 

A bunch of CVs are somewhere in between Enterprise's fast regen and Saipan's "She regens planes???"  Ark Royal in Tier VI also has very fast regen.  Indomitable in Tier VIII is also on the slow side of regen, to the point that LWM emphasizes it quite a bit in her review for her.

 

I would say the biggest extreme are:

  1. The addition of rockets 
  2. The removal of fighters
  3. Removal of 'the aim bloom with DFAA activation'

 

  1. Adding rockets removed all most skill required for a CV to hit anything fast.
    • Also gave the CVs another flight of planes to control
  2. Removal of fighters (the drop fighter (T-Button) is another conversation)
    • With the removal of fighters, CVs have changed from a support ship (because some did support in RTS) to a toxic plague that sits at the back without any counter, so the CV can farm damage for the full 20 min (or match end) whichever occurs first.
      • WG hopes to address this by limiting the spotting range of planes.  Personally I don't see how this will make any difference
Edited by Laser_Beam
  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
904
[PIG]
[PIG]
Members
1,310 posts
6,371 battles
14 hours ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

Just a general question about WOWS CVs. 

Does the airwing size of in-game carriers match their historical counterparts?

As an example, does the digital Enterprise have a limit of about 80-90 planes like the real one?

Does a smaller carrier such as the Langley only have about 30-40?

Or are CV airwings like torpedos in that they just keep generating until the clock runs out?

 

I have seen CV's complain in game chat that they are out of planes. OTOH I have also read that some CVs, like the Kaga, never stop generating planes -- at least not until the game ends.

So which is it?

:Smile_child:

Oink! No. definitely NO. Finito la Musica!!! From now on, Goltz will fight Noobism. Look... You perfectly know the difference between WoWs squadrons and WWII reality. So, I read... "like the Kaga, never stop generating planes" : How many posts about this, Dude?????????????? Don't play noob, I, me, know you are part of the anti CV seditious clique : The Noobists. Now, it's time to play serious. No "Exit Game" or turn off your computer when you see on top of the reds : "franz_von_goltz". Goltz.

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,853
Members
1,964 posts
52 battles
19 hours ago, TheGreatBlasto said:

Does the airwing size of in-game carriers match their historical counterparts?

No. Most far exceed that number.
For example counting fighters and all Enterprise is capable of putting well over 200 planes in the air.

Edited by El2aZeR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
560
[-N-]
Members
2,228 posts
14,840 battles
16 hours ago, Laser_Beam said:

 

 

How WG did the CV rework

 

 

 

PS - Planes are not ammo.  Planes carry ammo, ships carry ammo.  these shouldn't be confused.

+1 for working Father Ted into a CV Discussion!!!!

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×