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pcgamer001

BB's You have to stop hiding behind islands

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Just as the title reads, cant use cruisers for your sponge while you sit behind island all game you are the biggest ship with the most armor and HP. Please get out and play the game.

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They're playing the game, they're not playing the game the way you want them to.

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1 minute ago, pcgamer001 said:

Just as the title reads, cant use cruisers for your sponge while you sit behind island all game you are the biggest ship with the most armor and HP. Please get out and play the game.

Also the biggest and slowest target.

At least a cruiser can often get the heck out of Dodge when things go south.

Sitting still is something I don't do. What I usually do is follow close enough to the cruisers, so that when they get spotted, they can run behind me and keep firing.

No way a BB belongs in front, unless you know where the DDs are, and your entire group is prepared to push a defensive position.

The other thing is, the BBs getting out and visible won't necessarily save the cruisers. Would you rather shoot at a ship that you can take out quickly, and is worth more rewards, and get a set of guns out of the game, or one that will take you a few minutes, and is worth less, while leaving guns in the game?

In many cases, people aren't shooting cruisers because BBs are hiding, they're shooting them because they're the most logical target.

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You play your ship, I'll play mine.  If you want to control multiple ships you should look into a strategy game or something.

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55 minutes ago, pcgamer001 said:

Just as the title reads, cant use cruisers for your sponge while you sit behind island all game you are the biggest ship with the most armor and HP. Please get out and play the game.

Sure... when WG makes BB armor actually function like armor not like kindling. Its funny how a DD caliber shell can set BB armor steel on fire isn't it? Edit: I just did a quick test in a random just FYI. A single cruiser spamming HE on a full survival build Yamato burned the Yamato down to half health in 45 seconds. Thats literally how long the Yamato would take to stop and reverse. That was ONE fire running the whole time. The BB in this time only has the option of using one repair or one damage control...which will not repair the ship back to full. The moment the fire ended another fire would be lit right away so even if one used the damage control or repair, the ship would never be able to heal whatsoever when under a single cruiser's HE spam. This is incredibly poor design for a 'tank' class...and this is exactly why BBs do not 'use the armor and HP' they have. Its literally not possible to tank with the current fire/HE meta. Armor is IRRELEVANT to fire and HP is irrelevant when you can't repair it back faster than the fire damages it (nor repair AS much damage as the fire does). 

 

This game has three seriously moronic design issues. One of them is fire, next is the health pools (specifically superstructure)  and the other one is citadel damage pinhata. 

 

Fire is easy to fix. If the shell does not penetrate the armor it should not set the hull on fire. It should damage/wreck external components like AA guns, torpedo launchers and secondary batteries of course. Currently the effects of fire and health pool of superstructure make BBs 'tanking' or charging be neigh suicidal until the enemy cruisers are sunk. 

Health pools are easy to fix. The issue is the superstructure is being counted towards the 'sink' value..which is dumb. All they need to do to fix this is remove the superstructure from the hull health pool and convert it into and external component. This external component would, upon taking damage, degrade the ship's performance as related to stuff found on the superstructure. Aka spotting distance reduced, dispersion of guns increased (the fire director staff is on the superstructure), delays in commands from bridge to ship (delay when ordering rudder/engine changes or use of consumables). 

 

Citadels are what makes cruisers hide behind islands rather than use their speed and mobility in battle. Its silly how a BB or another cruiser can blarp off all or most HP of another ship in a single shot. This should be removed completely so that both cruisers and BBs can use maneuver warfare in their gameplay. To replace the damage pinhata effect the citadels should instead become a severe debuff impact location. 

Citadels are the ship's boilers. Taking hits on them should cause normal penetration damage and then severely debuff the ship's engine output. 

For example:

1 citadel hit = Max speed reduced to 3/4ths. 

2 citadel hits = max speed reduced to 1/2

3 citadel hits = max speed reduced to 1/4th

4 citadel hits = no power to engine. 

(% of engine loss could be made to be determined by shell caliber dealing the citadel as well). 

Citadel hits would be debuffs that last for 1 minute. If a ship is hit with 1 citadel it gets a citadel icon with a 60sec timer counting down. If a citadel is hit 10 seconds later, it will have one icon with 50secs timer and a second with 60 secs timer. If a ship has 4 citadel hits active and receives another citadel then the lowest timer gets reset to 60 secs. 

This would enable ships to severely disable each other.. for a ship with no engine power or reduced engine power also loses turn rate. A ship dead in the water is easy kill. Particularly when cruisers use their speed and maneuverability advantages. 

Remember, cruiser AP does citadel BBs at close and medium ranges depending on the BB. The hard part is maneuvering to get that shot. Some cruisers have torpedoes too. 

BBs on the flip side, would gain the function of their secondaries to fend off DDs and cruisers as showing some side is not going to be suicidal any more. 

BBs and cruisers would then be aiming for different armor locations on target ships to whittle their hull health pool down. 

 

Overall, a cruiser wanting to harm a BB has the option of destroying its superstructure first to reduce BB's ability to fight back and then close in to citadel it and leave it dead in the water.. thats when it can proceed to sail in circles around it while it and other team members pound it. 

BBs can tank.

Cruisers can maneuver. 

DDs and future subs have to use their stealth to break through the cruiser and DD screen if they want to torp and if they want to gun, they can use islands for cover or use their smoke. 

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1 hour ago, pcgamer001 said:

Just as the title reads, cant use cruisers for your sponge while you sit behind island all game you are the biggest ship with the most armor and HP. Please get out and play the game.

Ya I'll do that as soon as you cruisers don't run away from the first red you see and then try to hide beside me behind that island.

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I could complain just as much about CAs sailing full broadside and getting deleted, or DDs yoloing in and dying at the very start or the game as you can complain about BBs camping. You can't blame the entire state of the game on just one class of ships.

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People are not going to Yolo out with a BB and get themselves deleted. If the Island provides a never ending additional armor they will use it.

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1 hour ago, Torenico said:

They're playing the game, they're not playing the game the way you want them to.

 

1 hour ago, LuckyStarFan said:

You play your ship, I'll play mine.  If you want to control multiple ships you should look into a strategy game or something.

You both sum it up completely.   You can feel free to suggest a course of action in a game but at the end of the day, if I am not interested in that course of action, don't expect me to comply with your wishes.  I want to win the match and/or complete my objectives and I am going to do what I feel I need to do to win that match and/or complete my objectives.  

 

As far as BBs hiding behind island, that has nothing to do with the player,  it has to do with game mechanics.  BBs are quite squishy in WoWS with fires being the worse culprit in my opinion.   They are supposed to be tanky but when you have crusiers that can take 10-15k hps off a BB in a single Salvo or virtually any ship class, perpetually keep them lit on fire, what do you expect BB players to do, rush out and die gloriously?

The reality is that this game, while overall fun, is really, really borked.  BBs should be able to take a pounding from a cruiser all day long and still keep fighting.   There reality is that in real life, there is nothing a cruiser can do to a BB, aside from torpedoes that would likely render a BB combat ineffective,  I would even bet that your typical cruiser could actually expend their entire main battery ordnance store on a BB and not even come close to rendering it combat ineffective at least in real life but in WoWS, a cruiser with HE is most BBs worst enemy.  

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1 hour ago, pcgamer001 said:

Just as the title reads, cant use cruisers for your sponge while you sit behind island all game you are the biggest ship with the most armor and HP. Please get out and play the game.

every time i say that I'm a lair, and its false unless I post a replay, but I believe you AND agree with you, what would be even better is if they and the rest of the team would go past the middle of the map, and actually play

 

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I like when they stop moving behind islands. Makes them easier targets when you flank them out wide with a kiting cruiser or sneak up on them with a DD because you use the islands as cover and delete them in a volley of torps since they're sitting ducks.

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Two things will make your match a guaranteed loss. (especially at high tiers).

  • BBs hiding.
    • This can bee behind islands
    • Or running away from a cap.
  • BB not producing.
    • Because he is hiding behind the island.
    • Not capping when near a cap
    • Silent guns or not shooting at anything because he's to far. (this one is almost as bad as hiding).

Unfortunately, because the fatsos have a lot of capabilities. Their lack of production or hiding, are the primary reason for the "snowball effect" to be more intense then with any other ship class.

I dont see it changing anytime soon.

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Just now, Colonel_Potter said:

I like when they stop moving behind islands. Makes them easier targets when you flank them out wide with a kiting cruiser or sneak up on them with a DD because you use the islands as cover and delete them in a volley of torps since they're sitting ducks.

Yea, that requires going PAST the island, something 99% of the players in this game either (1)don't know how to do, )2)wont bother doing, or (3) are too stupid to understand they can or need to

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Nothing like BB drivers explaining why all that armor is basically useless and they have to hide in the back of the map or die. Gotta love it!

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8 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Nothing like BB drivers explaining why all that armor is basically useless and they have to hide in the back of the map or die. Gotta love it!

So say's the anti CV whiner.

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1 hour ago, Torenico said:

They're playing the game, they're not playing the game the way you want them to.

 

31 minutes ago, khorender_1 said:

Ya I'll do that as soon as you cruisers don't run away from the first red you see and then try to hide beside me behind that island.

The problem is how the game mechanics are designed for all the ship types to play a role in winning. If any of those links prove too weak to fulfill their tasks the chain simply breaks.

As a BB main I don't mind tanking damage; those Dreadnaught achievement flags are useful. What does really piss me off is when I'm where I'm supposed to be on the second or third line of battle only to find myself on the front line because those faster CAs and DDs decide to leave me hanging.

Now this is a game not real life and in real life tanking damage is not something you want to do. In the game... however... if you're in a ship that can absorb 10 or 20 or even 30K in damage that's worth one or two smaller ships. Assuming that they're not going to cut and run wouldn't you rather have those teammates still in the battle adding in their firepower. And unless there are divisions or clans coordinating their efforts more targets for the enemy to fire at simply divides their firepower as each ship plays their own game.

It's a game that sticks in my mind because it was one of those close, hard fought until the final minutes loss that we could have won if the Jean Bart that hid behind an island all game just sticking it's nose out every half minute or so to fire it's guns had been out fighting with the rest of us.. It could be argued that the ship was being played to it's strengths; or that it was his ship and he could play it the way he wanted. All I know is instead of a 3 on 1 end game if there had been another target out there spreading out the damage a 3 on 2 or 3 on 3 end game could have had a different result.

Individuals playing a team game is the base of the problem. Oh well... A plague on all their houses.

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The correct answer is as plain as the nose on my face , but it is also a very complicated answer .

And the answer differs between co-op and all other battle types . There is no number one be all end all ship class or type . You look at the map and the other ships and make a plan A......sometimes by the time you get to the cap your on plan F . Adaptability is the key . Keep constant tabs on EVERYTHING , and adapt . Change tactics.....its supposed to be a fleet ( TEAM ) effort , ships support ships , not leave them hanging .

But , to fully understand it , you have to have some idea of tactics , whether tried and true or adapting to how the situation evolves .

And never be afraid to get your paint scratched.....sometimes RNGesus smiles upon you . Most important....its a game .

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2 hours ago, pcgamer001 said:

Just as the title reads, cant use cruisers for your sponge while you sit behind island all game you are the biggest ship with the most armor and HP. Please get out and play the game.

But, what if some BB players see a Hooters in A and they want some chicken wings real bad. I saw a notorious BB player from Canada go in a Shenanigans in A cap one time. I know the beer is good, but seriously, do leprechauns really exist or are Bb players expecting a Riverdance performance?

Joking aside, you need to partner up with a BB player that doesn't do that. 

A Typical BB player should be able to hit from long medium and short ranges with main battery. Then they have their secbats on mindless auto fire if they skirmish like sailors at Trafalgar.

A Bb that relies only on secbats is really taking away a capability their ship has. Long range fire support. 

But I guess if a BB player is not confident to hit far, then secbats are the thing. It requires no effort, just click..like RTS Cvs...*stares at WG.

I myself have secbat builds and balanced builds. I prefer balanced if possible even if the guns are crap at long range. 

The way I see it, the more I far at those ranges, the more WG will see the misses, and they eventually tighten the dispersion again until long range fire is consistent.

It is too easy to lob HE, but it takes a considerable amount of skill to hit with AP. 

If a BB player is waiting until 14km to use mains, then they need to work on their gunnery.

Gunnery doctrine is hit far medium and short. Do it often and your opponent gets worn down by the time they are close. 

It's a gun duel. Old school shootout, but with bolt action at those ranges. 

However, a BB can't win a match alone. That was the mistake by players at the very beginning. It takes a team to win. A BB should support his team in front and also look across the map if the team is having trouble across the way.

A BB sometimes has to fire on any ship threatening the DD on his team flank. That should be the priority, team flank, protect the DD, and the cruiser, then slug it out as you sail in slow.

 

Each team component brings something to the table. Even that evil CV player.  

A way to exercise this doctrine is to use the training room with many players on multiple divisions on both sides. Use maps with a lot of islands and even a CV on both sides as that is the usual norm in randoms. 

Once you have a team that executes close to the ideal, then it is likely you are ready.

One caveat about team play is that should a team member fall, it is in your best interests to retreat and regroup with another team. If that is not an option, then do your best to fight a delayed action. You might lose that cap, but holding them off as much as possible contesting it takes resources from red team.

In combat, there are sacrifices. But if it brings victory, then everyone wins. 

 

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1 hour ago, Midnitewolf said:

 

You both sum it up completely.   You can feel free to suggest a course of action in a game but at the end of the day, if I am not interested in that course of action, don't expect me to comply with your wishes.  I want to win the match and/or complete my objectives and I am going to do what I feel I need to do to win that match and/or complete my objectives.  

 

As far as BBs hiding behind island, that has nothing to do with the player,  it has to do with game mechanics.  BBs are quite squishy in WoWS with fires being the worse culprit in my opinion.   They are supposed to be tanky but when you have crusiers that can take 10-15k hps off a BB in a single Salvo or virtually any ship class, perpetually keep them lit on fire, what do you expect BB players to do, rush out and die gloriously?

The reality is that this game, while overall fun, is really, really borked.  BBs should be able to take a pounding from a cruiser all day long and still keep fighting.   There reality is that in real life, there is nothing a cruiser can do to a BB, aside from torpedoes that would likely render a BB combat ineffective,  I would even bet that your typical cruiser could actually expend their entire main battery ordnance store on a BB and not even come close to rendering it combat ineffective at least in real life but in WoWS, a cruiser with HE is most BBs worst enemy.  

And it is that very meta, Fires, that is slowly being addressed. IFHE took a hit, fire chance is going to take a massive hit I think in the next big skills reset. The kiting cruiser, while a useful unit by itself, only promotes self capitalization. They don't cap, they sink ships with fire while taking very little themselves. Henri got his achilles nicked. Eventually, BB gunfire will be made accurate soon at long range as a skill. Center mass shots will become more evident. 

Will HE spam completely go away? No, but it will no longer be a way of life. 

Winter is coming, cold hard AP along with it. Even DDs are using it on BB secbats so they can saunter up a BB and plug away with torps at fatal distance. It reminds me of that scene where the Sergeant throws his knife at the recruit in Starship Troopers to prove a point..

"The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand."

A GK can't use his secbats if a DD shot them out.

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1 hour ago, CrazyHorse_Denver said:

 

The problem is how the game mechanics are designed for all the ship types to play a role in winning. If any of those links prove too weak to fulfill their tasks the chain simply breaks.

As a BB main I don't mind tanking damage; those Dreadnaught achievement flags are useful. What does really piss me off is when I'm where I'm supposed to be on the second or third line of battle only to find myself on the front line because those faster CAs and DDs decide to leave me hanging.

Now this is a game not real life and in real life tanking damage is not something you want to do. In the game... however... if you're in a ship that can absorb 10 or 20 or even 30K in damage that's worth one or two smaller ships. Assuming that they're not going to cut and run wouldn't you rather have those teammates still in the battle adding in their firepower. And unless there are divisions or clans coordinating their efforts more targets for the enemy to fire at simply divides their firepower as each ship plays their own game.

It's a game that sticks in my mind because it was one of those close, hard fought until the final minutes loss that we could have won if the Jean Bart that hid behind an island all game just sticking it's nose out every half minute or so to fire it's guns had been out fighting with the rest of us.. It could be argued that the ship was being played to it's strengths; or that it was his ship and he could play it the way he wanted. All I know is instead of a 3 on 1 end game if there had been another target out there spreading out the damage a 3 on 2 or 3 on 3 end game could have had a different result.

Individuals playing a team game is the base of the problem. Oh well... A plague on all their houses.

I like a lot of players in " Randoms" have learned not to expect the expected, nor do I hide my BB behind any island nor do I play my slow wobbly U.S. BB sniping from the farthest borderline.

For me a lot of the problem is with it's being called a team game when most of the missions, campaigns and whatever else grinds going on are not based on team anything, it's what causes people to sit back and snipe while hitting with main guns for 1k or whatever the bleeding task they are working on, I mean the dockyard missions are far from team based.

I like Randoms for what they are, most matches are played solo and with little to NO communication, I know you have called targets and no one shoots 1 shot at it. no ? If people want meta then play CB I don't see how Randoms will ever be any different than they always have been.

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3 hours ago, pcgamer001 said:

Just as the title reads, cant use cruisers for your sponge while you sit behind island all game you are the biggest ship with the most armor and HP. Please get out and play the game.

I will do that when my teammates actually support me.  The problem is every time Im totally down to push  I get "wilco!" from everyone involved only for them to screw off and abandon me to getting focused by every ship on the side.

If I can't trust my teammates to have my back? Why should I play in a manner thats going to get me killed in 5 minutes 9 out every 10 games...for the one game my teammates will actually support me.

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2 hours ago, khorender_1 said:

Ya I'll do that as soon as you cruisers don't run away from the first red you see and then try to hide beside me behind that island.

Or at the farthest back corner of the map where they do no one any good and are just waiting for the enemy team to trap any avenue of escape for an easy kill.....:Smile_sceptic:  

 

I understand what the original post was about and the thinking behind it..  There are some players who will shield themselves off and make themselves entirely useless for the rest of the battle. If a team mate gets in trouble, then that stationary battleship which is waiting for the single hidden ship he is hoping to fire at to come into view will take at least a couple of minutes to move (And they wont) to be able to help you.  When Seconds count, help is only minutes away.

 

The problem is that many battleships in the game are completely trash as back map snipers.  They are not accurate enough, and in some cases sitting farther away is more dangerous for them (Here is looking at you mister Bismarck shooting from 20km).  Part of the problem is the way the game is currently set up.  The team that uses their ships to fulfill their roles wins, the team that sits in the back with each person only worrying about padding their own stats and not scratching their beautiful digital paint job is the team that usually loses...  Unfortunately you have no choice over which side you get stuck with, and the quantity of each type is sadly lopsided in favor of the latter in my opinion.

 

I am in agreement with you Khorender, ships need to work together as a team.  Warships is not a game of single captains, its a team based effort, and for every person on a team trying to maintain a hiding spot that just means that everyone else has to pick up their slack.  It doesnt help when that player increases toxicity about how they did X amount of damage as the team loses while they are at 3/4 health, when if they had just moved out and capped that one circle that was undefended 5 minutes back that it would have been a win instead...  Each ship class relies on the other classes to make their job possible. 

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1 hour ago, khorender_1 said:

So say's the anti CV whiner.

Poor Pookie, nothing to do but call his betters names! So sad that you have nothing but that to contribute.

I should thank all you haters for making me famous, or infamous; I can hardly get into a high tier match anymore without someone giving me a shout out and asking how it's going. So please do continue to spread my name and avatar around, if this keeps up I'll get my own YouTube channel.

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Well I play mostly BB and I like to engage and be right in the thick of the battle but lately I have found the game getting boring as a BB player due to the list below:

1. HE spamming is ridiculous (no time to retreat, too many fires to counter, damage taken not worth it pushing.)

2. AP over-pen too much (BBs overpen upclose, far back, etc - not worth the risk when you cant damage a light bulb anymore)

3. Retreater's - BBs come to help CA's and DDs next thing you know BB is getting HE pounced and teammates use that time to save their own butts

4. Damage taken by fast firing ships are stupid fast. BBs get melted no need to say more

5. When a CV is in play - BB advancing is a automatic focus fire Bonfire!

6. BB armor (big numbers - mean nothing)

7. Torpedo target practice... (self explanatory)

As someone mention I advanced in my BB and fires are started so easily against me. One game I lost over 70k health to fires and was dead less than 2 min. 

Do I suck as a player: Probably, everyone has a opinion but one thing is sure, until the HE spamming and ridiculous fire damage is dealt with and the overpening cease, BBs will forever hide.

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