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1FastRT

How to fix the cruiser smoke/HE spam meta

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IMO, the ability to use defensive measures such as smoke as an offensive weapon is something that needs to be addressed.  Being able to aim out of smoke and rain shells on targets and yet, somehow, be completely hidden from your adversary is like using a one-way mirror to win a gunfight.  Or like having technology that didn't exist at the time like inferred.  It doesn't make sense and frankly, it becomes more of an irritation to players who have to deal with this weird game mechanic that is abused by players far too often.  To make the situation worse, since you can't see the target in smoke, shell dispersion is at its maximum limiting the effectiveness to stop the never-ending stream of death raining on you.  Many of you know which cruisers I'm talking about and at tier X this mechanic is unavoidable showing up in almost every match, sometimes in force when 3 or 4 of these ships are on the same side.  Yes, its the cruiser smoke/ HE spam meta, and it has got to go.  I have some suggestions, however.

What I'm suggesting is to force commanders who use the smoke consumable to use the minimap to try to land shots on their targets.  If you are good at it you could apply some pretty good damage.  However, using optics to pinpoint targets while in the cover of smoke would not be possible in the same sense it would not be possible to see a ship in heavy smoke.  Let's be real, smoke works no matter what direction to look through it.

A second option is to add an effect in-game that a ship in smoke would become visible for .25 seconds when firing its guns.  This would be similar to how the ship would light up when the flash of the guns illuminate the area.   

This effect could essentially make a ship in smoke to be completely visible if it has a high rate of fire. 

This mechanic could also be applied to the ships outside of smoke making them visible for the .25 seconds to the commander in smoke as well.  In this case, optics could be used to attempt to land shots.

The third option would be to do a combination of the previous two suggestions. 

These suggestions would make smoke a defensive measure again forcing commanders to decide if it is worth the risk to shoot. Give commanders the option to shoot out of smoke in an attempt to apply damage if they see the opportunity, but don't give them free rain to apply massive damage almost unchallenged.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

 

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At high tier, why not nerf

  • AP
  • HE/fire
  • Planes
  • Secondaries

Its not going to happen... But at least we know the areas of contention and frustration.

Edited by Navalpride33

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28 minutes ago, 1FastRT said:

IMO, the ability to use defensive measures such as smoke as an offensive weapon is something that needs to be addressed.  Being able to aim out of smoke and rain shells on targets and yet, somehow, be completely hidden from your adversary is like using a one-way mirror to win a gunfight.  Or like having technology that didn't exist at the time like inferred.  It doesn't make sense and frankly, it becomes more of an irritation to players who have to deal with this weird game mechanic that is abused by players far too often.  To make the situation worse, since you can't see the target in smoke, shell dispersion is at its maximum limiting the effectiveness to stop the never-ending stream of death raining on you.  Many of you know which cruisers I'm talking about and at tier X this mechanic is unavoidable showing up in almost every match, sometimes in force when 3 or 4 of these ships are on the same side.  Yes, its the cruiser smoke/ HE spam meta, and it has got to go.  I have some suggestions, however.

What I'm suggesting is to force commanders who use the smoke consumable to use the minimap to try to land shots on their targets.  If you are good at it you could apply some pretty good damage.  However, using optics to pinpoint targets while in the cover of smoke would not be possible in the same sense it would not be possible to see a ship in heavy smoke.  Let's be real, smoke works no matter what direction to look through it.

A second option is to add an effect in-game that a ship in smoke would become visible for .25 seconds when firing its guns.  This would be similar to how the ship would light up when the flash of the guns illuminate the area.   

This effect could essentially make a ship in smoke to be completely visible if it has a high rate of fire. 

This mechanic could also be applied to the ships outside of smoke making them visible for the .25 seconds to the commander in smoke as well.  In this case, optics could be used to attempt to land shots.

The third option would be to do a combination of the previous two suggestions. 

These suggestions would make smoke a defensive measure again forcing commanders to decide if it is worth the risk to shoot. Give commanders the option to shoot out of smoke in an attempt to apply damage if they see the opportunity, but don't give them free rain to apply massive damage almost unchallenged.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

 

You can always shoot the ships in the smoke by locking on their ammo tracers... that's what the majority of people do...especially the ones that have made it to T10.

It's not that hard to do actually...you can even determine which way the ship in the smoke is moving around by watching the difference in position between volleys.

Some of the spammers will even stop firing when they see your guns coming around to their smoke because they know how efficiently that works & they tend to be very squishy ships.

There's already a smoke firing penalty if somebody gets close enough to them...maybe try closing in & forcing them to stop (or be detected by you) by getting close enough. If you can manage that you might even be able to chase them down & delete them as their smoke fades.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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46 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

At high tier, why not nerf

  • AP
  • HE/fire
  • Planes
  • Secondaries

Its not going to happen... But at least we know the areas of contention and frustration.

Don't forget radar,halland AA,torp range.....anything that kills us ...lol

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My thoughts have always been for a more or less complete rework of how AP & HE work. I would reduce HE fire chance drastically but give AP a fire chance as both were explosive. I would also rework how fire works with a chance every tick for the oldest to go out with a much higher chance if damage control is triggered. This would have the advantage of making fire simply a side effect of hits instead of the weapon it is now with many ships.

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1 hour ago, 1FastRT said:

Let me know what you think.

I think you need to learn to play your BBs better.

You struggle with higher tier BBs, yet do well in the lower tier ones. So quit racing up the BB lines, go back to the lower tiers, and take your time and learn how to deal with the things you obviously blew through on your mad rush to tier 10. Set the premiums aside for now and play those line ships one tier above the last BB you have purple stats in. (And yeah, I did notice you had some purple stats in some lower tier BBs, so work your way up from there and keep all your stats purple.)

WoWs isn't a race; the guy who gets to tier 10 first doesn't win anything. The guy who masters and enjoys every tier he plays, however, is the guy who becomes a Unicum and the one everyone fears.

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2 hours ago, Umikami said:

I think you need to learn to play your BBs better.

You struggle with higher tier BBs, yet do well in the lower tier ones. So quit racing up the BB lines, go back to the lower tiers, and take your time and learn how to deal with the things you obviously blew through on your mad rush to tier 10. Set the premiums aside for now and play those line ships one tier above the last BB you have purple stats in. (And yeah, I did notice you had some purple stats in some lower tier BBs, so work your way up from there and keep all your stats purple.)

WoWs isn't a race; the guy who gets to tier 10 first doesn't win anything. The guy who masters and enjoys every tier he plays, however, is the guy who becomes a Unicum and the one everyone fears.

It’s true...been doing 40-60k max damage in my t6 /t5 [edited], and then I go down to t4 for a mission in my Woming

 

Bam! 80k dmg! 40 (or high 30’s) plane kills, 1 million plus potential damage, three kills, and a lot of dopamine released

Edited by Boomer625

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3 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

My thoughts have always been for a more or less complete rework of how AP & HE work. I would reduce HE fire chance drastically but give AP a fire chance as both were explosive. I would also rework how fire works with a chance every tick for the oldest to go out with a much higher chance if damage control is triggered. This would have the advantage of making fire simply a side effect of hits instead of the weapon it is now with many ships.

In your description, it sounds aa if you made AP more powerful by introducing fire and reduced the effectiveness of HE?

All that seems to do is buff the ships that use AP most - aren't those ships already the biggest damage dealers on average anyway?

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Ummmm..... smoke *IS* both an offensive and defensive weapon.

Invalid argument.

 

You only want to "fix" something you object to. Let me guess, you don't own the Smollie.... I do... I'm happy with it and that includes often being sunk because everyone wants you dead... as it should be.

Edited by kiwi1960

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@1FastRT it seems 'meta' is used as a way to try and describe something bad?

What about the over-match 'meta' where it doesn't matter what angle you're at in a cruiser?

Or the sighting meta for DDs - CVs, spotters, fighters, radar, hydro, RPF.

 

Every ship type has a 'meta' that works against it. The question is, does that 'meta' change where WG wants that ship type to perform.

BBs are still at the top of DD/CL-CA/BB table for damage and survival on average; this will not change - I GUARANTEE IT!

When it does, I'll agree a change is needed, until then, if I am performing worse than the average stats - that's on me. :Smile_honoring:

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tracers work both ways

although I will admit that blind shooting requires some knowledge of how the tracers are rendered relative to ship position

Edited by MrDeaf

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2 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

In your description, it sounds aa if you made AP more powerful by introducing fire and reduced the effectiveness of HE?

All that seems to do is buff the ships that use AP most - aren't those ships already the biggest damage dealers on average anyway?

Battleships are already Damage Dealing Leaders.

 

People whine about Cruisers and DD Gunboats.  But when you look at the numbers, such spammers pale in comparison to what damage Battleships deal out.

 

Worcester 60.6k Dmg Avg - 152mm HE Spammer extraordinaire.

Des Moines 63.2k Dmg Avg - 203mm guns with a ridiculous 5.5 seconds base reload.

 

And GK, the BB that Battleship players whine about her bad accuracy... Does 75.7k Dmg Avg.

Hey!  I didn't include Smolensk!  She averages 77.4k despite her 130mm x16 with Smoke setup.  She got yanked from the shop.  A ship many complained about does equivalent damage to the lowest damage dealing BB in Tier X.

 

But that's Tier X, everything is nasty there, right?

 

Let's do Tier VII!

Gneisenau - I Think we can agree that in terms of BB Gunnery, you will fond no worse BB this tier than her.  It would not be a stretch to say that tier for tier, she is the worst BB in terms of reliable gunnery.  She averages 41.9k.

 

CL Helena 33.3k Dmg Avg - 152mm x FIFTEEN

CL Atlanta 29.9k Dmg Avg - Lots of 127mm guns

CL Schors 38.4k Dmg Avg - RU 152mm x12 with shells that fly like they were shot from Railguns

CL Fiji 39.1k Dmg Avg - Not an HE Spammer, fires RNCL AP shells.  Considered a highlight ship of the RNCL Line, and some say she is the best ship of that line and not X Minotaur.

CL Belfast 49.8k Dmg Avg - The OP CL long pulled from the shop.

 

Even in Tier VII, you look at those CLs with their spammy guns, they still pale in comparison to the performance of arguably the worst Battleship Gunnery in the game, Gneisenau.

 

Edit:  Let's jump to Tier IX.

FDG - German BB players love to complain about German BB accuracy, how they whine that "German Battleships are the worst Battleships" or other such nonsense.  She averages 61k.

Iowa does 61.4k.

Izumo does 65.8k

 

DD Kitakaze 51.6k Dmg Avg - There's actually a current, recent thread in General Discussion whining about her right now.  She is considered arguably the best IJN DD Gunboat, better than X Harugumo.  A highlight Tier IX Ranked Performer.  Yet she does worse damage than Iowa and FDG.

CL Seattle 49.1k Dmg Avg

CA Buffalo 47k Dmg Avg

CA Roon 57.1k Dmg Avg - Actually a respectable Cruiser.  Fast firing 203mm guns with high HE Pen capability.

They still pale in comparison to the worst Tier IX BBs.

 

Source:  Maplesyrup, NA Server Weekly stats 2020-09-12

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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3 hours ago, Boomer625 said:

It’s true...been doing 40-60k max damage in my t6 /t5 [edited], and then I go down to t4 for a mission in my Woming

 

Bam! 80k dmg! 40 (or high 30’s) plane kills, 1 million plus potential damage, three kills, and a lot of dopamine released

I'm glad it's working for you; so many players race up the different lines, enjoying nothing and foaming at the mouth for that "Next Tier Ship" which is never quite what they'd hoped it would be. Somebody much wiser than me once said that happiness wasn't a destination but rather a way of traveling. So it is in World of Warships.

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8 hours ago, 1FastRT said:

IMO, the ability to use defensive measures such as smoke as an offensive weapon is something that needs to be addressed.  Being able to aim out of smoke and rain shells on targets and yet, somehow, be completely hidden from your adversary is like using a one-way mirror to win a gunfight.  Or like having technology that didn't exist at the time like inferred.  It doesn't make sense and frankly, it becomes more of an irritation to players who have to deal with this weird game mechanic that is abused by players far too often.  To make the situation worse, since you can't see the target in smoke, shell dispersion is at its maximum limiting the effectiveness to stop the never-ending stream of death raining on you.  Many of you know which cruisers I'm talking about and at tier X this mechanic is unavoidable showing up in almost every match, sometimes in force when 3 or 4 of these ships are on the same side.  Yes, its the cruiser smoke/ HE spam meta, and it has got to go.  I have some suggestions, however.

What I'm suggesting is to force commanders who use the smoke consumable to use the minimap to try to land shots on their targets.  If you are good at it you could apply some pretty good damage.  However, using optics to pinpoint targets while in the cover of smoke would not be possible in the same sense it would not be possible to see a ship in heavy smoke.  Let's be real, smoke works no matter what direction to look through it.

A second option is to add an effect in-game that a ship in smoke would become visible for .25 seconds when firing its guns.  This would be similar to how the ship would light up when the flash of the guns illuminate the area.   

This effect could essentially make a ship in smoke to be completely visible if it has a high rate of fire. 

This mechanic could also be applied to the ships outside of smoke making them visible for the .25 seconds to the commander in smoke as well.  In this case, optics could be used to attempt to land shots.

The third option would be to do a combination of the previous two suggestions. 

These suggestions would make smoke a defensive measure again forcing commanders to decide if it is worth the risk to shoot. Give commanders the option to shoot out of smoke in an attempt to apply damage if they see the opportunity, but don't give them free rain to apply massive damage almost unchallenged.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

 

Firing from smoke - and firing on targets using radar -  could include large dispersion penalties.

That said, I've been practicing Flamu's instructions for using spotter planes to fire at HE spammers in smoke. It's starting to click - yesterday I dev struck a smoked Smolensk in one match and got 3 citadels on a smoked Mino in another, both in a Montana and both early in the match. 

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Battleships are already Damage Dealing Leaders.

 

People whine about Cruisers and DD Gunboats.  But when you look at the numbers, such spammers pale in comparison to what damage Battleships deal out.

 

Worcester 60.6k Dmg Avg - 152mm HE Spammer extraordinaire.

Des Moines 63.2k Dmg Avg - 203mm guns with a ridiculous 5.5 seconds base reload.

 

And GK, the BB that Battleship players whine about her bad accuracy... Does 75.7k Dmg Avg.

Hey!  I didn't include Smolensk!  She averages 77.4k despite her 130mm x16 with Smoke setup.  She got yanked from the shop.  A ship many complained about does equivalent damage to the lowest damage dealing BB in Tier X.

 

But that's Tier X, everything is nasty there, right?

 

Let's do Tier VII!

Gneisenau - I Think we can agree that in terms of BB Gunnery, you will fond no worse BB this tier than her.  It would not be a stretch to say that tier for tier, she is the worst BB in terms of reliable gunnery.  She averages 41.9k.

 

CL Helena 33.3k Dmg Avg - 152mm x FIFTEEN

CL Atlanta 29.9k Dmg Avg - Lots of 127mm guns

CL Schors 38.4k Dmg Avg - RU 152mm x12 with shells that fly like they were shot from Railguns

CL Fiji 39.1k Dmg Avg - Not an HE Spammer, fires RNCL AP shells.  Considered a highlight ship of the RNCL Line, and some say she is the best ship of that line and not X Minotaur.

CL Belfast 49.8k Dmg Avg - The OP CL long pulled from the shop.

 

Even in Tier VII, you look at those CLs with their spammy guns, they still pale in comparison to the performance of arguably the worst Battleship Gunnery in the game, Gneisenau.

 

Edit:  Let's jump to Tier IX.

FDG - German BB players love to complain about German BB accuracy, how they whine that "German Battleships are the worst Battleships" or other such nonsense.  She averages 61k.

Iowa does 61.4k.

Izumo does 65.8k

 

DD Kitakaze 51.6k Dmg Avg - There's actually a current, recent thread in General Discussion whining about her right now.  She is considered arguably the best IJN DD Gunboat, better than X Harugumo.  A highlight Tier IX Ranked Performer.  Yet she does worse damage than Iowa and FDG.

CL Seattle 49.1k Dmg Avg

CA Buffalo 47k Dmg Avg

CA Roon 57.1k Dmg Avg - Actually a respectable Cruiser.  Fast firing 203mm guns with high HE Pen capability.

They still pale in comparison to the worst Tier IX BBs.

 

Source:  Maplesyrup, NA Server Weekly stats 2020-09-12

That was my point. :Smile_honoring:

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If players shooting out of smoke is a problem.  The below will help, and for hydro/radar/torp options, only 1 ship needs to use these.  It does not have to be you.

  1. I dunno if the navy call it muzzle flash, shoot at these in smoke.
  2. Try using radar/hydro to counter smoke
  3. Try dropping torps intop smoke

 

As for your suggestions

  1. How is shooting from smoke any different from shooting from behind islands?  Both require the use of a spotter.  No spotter then no targets on the mini map.

I know my following comment will get a lol on the forums, but I still have to type it.

This is a team game (insert lol) what you propose of removing 'targets' for anyone trying to shoot from smoke/concealment remove another form of 'teamwork' from the game.

I think it's cool that WG provide an option to put suggestions forward.  I don't see this option of using the mini map as a targeting tool is a valid option when spotters are available 

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3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Battleships are already Damage Dealing Leaders.

 

People whine about Cruisers and DD Gunboats.  But when you look at the numbers, such spammers pale in comparison to what damage Battleships deal out.

 

Worcester 60.6k Dmg Avg - 152mm HE Spammer extraordinaire.

Des Moines 63.2k Dmg Avg - 203mm guns with a ridiculous 5.5 seconds base reload.

 

And GK, the BB that Battleship players whine about her bad accuracy... Does 75.7k Dmg Avg.

Hey!  I didn't include Smolensk!  She averages 77.4k despite her 130mm x16 with Smoke setup.  She got yanked from the shop.  A ship many complained about does equivalent damage to the lowest damage dealing BB in Tier X.

 

But that's Tier X, everything is nasty there, right?

 

Let's do Tier VII!

Gneisenau - I Think we can agree that in terms of BB Gunnery, you will fond no worse BB this tier than her.  It would not be a stretch to say that tier for tier, she is the worst BB in terms of reliable gunnery.  She averages 41.9k.

 

CL Helena 33.3k Dmg Avg - 152mm x FIFTEEN

CL Atlanta 29.9k Dmg Avg - Lots of 127mm guns

CL Schors 38.4k Dmg Avg - RU 152mm x12 with shells that fly like they were shot from Railguns

CL Fiji 39.1k Dmg Avg - Not an HE Spammer, fires RNCL AP shells.  Considered a highlight ship of the RNCL Line, and some say she is the best ship of that line and not X Minotaur.

CL Belfast 49.8k Dmg Avg - The OP CL long pulled from the shop.

 

Even in Tier VII, you look at those CLs with their spammy guns, they still pale in comparison to the performance of arguably the worst Battleship Gunnery in the game, Gneisenau.

 

Edit:  Let's jump to Tier IX.

FDG - German BB players love to complain about German BB accuracy, how they whine that "German Battleships are the worst Battleships" or other such nonsense.  She averages 61k.

Iowa does 61.4k.

Izumo does 65.8k

 

DD Kitakaze 51.6k Dmg Avg - There's actually a current, recent thread in General Discussion whining about her right now.  She is considered arguably the best IJN DD Gunboat, better than X Harugumo.  A highlight Tier IX Ranked Performer.  Yet she does worse damage than Iowa and FDG.

CL Seattle 49.1k Dmg Avg

CA Buffalo 47k Dmg Avg

CA Roon 57.1k Dmg Avg - Actually a respectable Cruiser.  Fast firing 203mm guns with high HE Pen capability.

They still pale in comparison to the worst Tier IX BBs.

 

Source:  Maplesyrup, NA Server Weekly stats 2020-09-12

I'm not with the other person at all..But I'm not totally agreeing with you either....yes Battleships or whoever can do damage but the kills are what matter....you look at wows stats page and 90+% of the leaders in kills wins games.....sometimes the damage dealers aren't the killers but farmers....So it is tricky....i try to not focus on farming but killing, my stats in my dds are a little above average damage wise but higher in kills and caps and it equates to wins......Not sure if I just misunderstood you,  so sorry if I did.

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I do appreciate the feedback, and I will be the first to admit I am no expert in this game and I have lots to learn still.  That's the great thing about this game is it isn't just point and shoot, there is a lot to the game. 

HOWEVER, I'm not just complaining, I'm offering suggestions to improve the game.

No, I do NOT feel I raced up to tier X.  I had over 1200 battles in all kinds of ship types and nationalities before 1 of my lines finally got to tier X. 

No, I didn't use free XP, didn't pay my way up the line, I made it to tier X when WG developers thought I should have.  If you disagree, take it up to WG about your concern, not me.  Your contradicting yourself when you say I should not be a tier X player even though I used the same parameters within the game that you are defending, such as cruiser Smoke/HE spamming.  Whether you feel I have enough battles to be at tier X or not doesn't change the statement I am standing by, that is being able to see out of the same cloud of smoke I can't see into is unrealistic and I stand by the suggestions I made in my original post.  

No, this thread is not about XP of players at tier X.  Matchmaking doesn't distinguish the difference between a 10,000+ battle player and a 1,000 battle player.  Tier X is Tier X and you're going to have a huge gap between experience in this tier.  Again stick to the topic,  I know this is hard for many of you.

No, this thread is not about shooting from behind islands, find another thread to complain about that.

No, this thread is not about how much damage a BATTLESHIP does over a cruiser or destroyer.  I mean its a battleship, are you actually listening to yourself talk when you complain about a battleship being the heavy hitters in-game?  SERIOUSLY??  DDs counter Battleships, Battleships counter Cruisers, Cruisers counter DDs,  that's why you need a mix of ships to work as a team (enter laughter here).  CVs are a class of their own unfortunately and don't really fit this model.

AND NO, this is not a let's complain about CVs ruining the game thread.  CVs were a devastating force and were the primary target of every ship and plane when they were spotted because they were so deadly.  Look at your history and actually pay attention this time.

BACK TO MY POINT..  find me a magic lens that can see through smoke that was designed in the era of WOWS and ill stop complaining about this ridiculous cheat of a mechanic.

Ships are sitting IN the smoke between islands at a great distance usually behind their team's front line.  This protects them from torps from sometimes multiple angles depending on the number of islands, with no way to get close enough to them until you clear out the ships forward of their location.  They then sit in smoke to deal their damage, almost unchallenged.  This tactic and this tactic alone is what I am attacking.  Spotting planes, sure, I can get behind that.  But this should be a no go without a spotting plane overhead helping direct the gunfire.  However, other people spotting should only reveal them on the mini-map, again forcing them to use the minimap while IN smoke.

 

 

 

Edited by 1FastRT
[edited] was edited out, I added a more appropriate word in its place

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11 hours ago, Umikami said:

I think you need to learn to play your BBs better.

You struggle with higher tier BBs, yet do well in the lower tier ones. So quit racing up the BB lines, go back to the lower tiers, and take your time and learn how to deal with the things you obviously blew through on your mad rush to tier 10. Set the premiums aside for now and play those line ships one tier above the last BB you have purple stats in. (And yeah, I did notice you had some purple stats in some lower tier BBs, so work your way up from there and keep all your stats purple.)

WoWs isn't a race; the guy who gets to tier 10 first doesn't win anything. The guy who masters and enjoys every tier he plays, however, is the guy who becomes a Unicum and the one everyone fears.

Good advice, I will try this as well.  Thanks.

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10 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

In your description, it sounds aa if you made AP more powerful by introducing fire and reduced the effectiveness of HE?

All that seems to do is buff the ships that use AP most - aren't those ships already the biggest damage dealers on average anyway?

The idea is that HE is lower damage but very steady and both did cause fires. I also forgot to mention that on fire ticks that additional damage could happen, ie secondary or AA ammunition cooking off.

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13 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

The idea is that HE is lower damage but very steady and both did cause fires. I also forgot to mention that on fire ticks that additional damage could happen, ie secondary or AA ammunition cooking off.

That's why I don't agree. HE is already lower damage - all the stats available, over all servers, show the ships that have torpedoes as their main weapons are the lowest damage dealers.

Then the ones that use HE are the next damage dealers.

Then the ones that use AP most, do the most damage on average.

So as @HazeGrayUnderway states - HE already does less damage. 

I get when driving a BB it is annoying when you get those fires that keep ticking away. But if anything, if you want to reduce fires, then you have to increase the Alpha damage of HE.

Otherwise all you are doing is buffing a ship type in an area where it is already King, and nerfing those in an area they are already weaker in.

I understand the BB is King in this game, but the balance of the supporting cast needs to be kept, or this will be a game where players only want to play one ship type and the game will suffer for it. :Smile_honoring:

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9 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

That's why I don't agree. HE is already lower damage - all the stats available, over all servers, show the ships that have torpedoes as their main weapons are the lowest damage dealers.

Then the ones that use HE are the next damage dealers.

Then the ones that use AP most, do the most damage on average.

So as @HazeGrayUnderway states - HE already does less damage. 

I get when driving a BB it is annoying when you get those fires that keep ticking away. But if anything, if you want to reduce fires, then you have to increase the Alpha damage of HE.

Otherwise all you are doing is buffing a ship type in an area where it is already King, and nerfing those in an area they are already weaker in.

I understand the BB is King in this game, but the balance of the supporting cast needs to be kept, or this will be a game where players only want to play one ship type and the game will suffer for it. :Smile_honoring:

I just want fire to be a side effect of hits instead of something that players aim for. Yes it is more unreliable than AP but too many ships live and die by it, Smolensk, Colbert, and Worcester are three examples and are a big part of why IFHE was changed. Both help but too many ships have no way to repair making any fire damage permanent. There has to be a way to make the target feel less helpless against it.

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8 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

I just want fire to be a side effect of hits instead of something that players aim for. Yes it is more unreliable than AP but too many ships live and die by it, Smolensk, Colbert, and Worcester are three examples and are a big part of why IFHE was changed. Both help but too many ships have no way to repair making any fire damage permanent. There has to be a way to make the target feel less helpless against it.

You are correct, too many ships don't have a way to repair - maybe we should reduce AP damage and citadels?

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5 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

You are correct, too many ships don't have a way to repair - maybe we should reduce AP damage and citadels?

On repair, one thought I have had is to add one repair to every ship that isn't affected by Superintendent.

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6 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

On repair, one thought I have had is to add one repair to every ship that isn't affected by Superintendent.

Yes, good idea - but as you seemed concerned with the damage taken by certain ships, shouldn't we also look at reducing AP too (as it is singularly the biggest source of damage in the game). I mean, this thread is all about the unfairness of fire damage - yet we know that is not the greatest damage dealer.

So if it is all about the unfairness of damage, shouldn't we first look to the ammunition that causes damage most in game, on average, across the board on all servers?

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