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Tone and ise

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I thought there would be much more chatter about this announcement. So many people have asked for it in the past few months.

 

 
10.09.2020 14:00
  • CONCEPTION TEST

ST, HYBRIDS

Please note that all information in the development blog is preliminary and subject to change during testing. Any showcased features may or may not end up on the main server. The final information will be published on our game's website.

 

In the near future, a new group of battleships and cruisers will be tested - hybrids. Their main feature is the ability to launch a squadron of planes. Launching and controlling them is done the same way as with aircraft carriers: by pressing a separate button. After launch, control is fully transferred to the squadron, and the ship may be controlled with autopilot. Hybrids won't have automatically activated consumables. 

Testing will be done with two ships, carrying torpedo bombers:

  • Japanese Tier VIII cruiser Tone;
  • Japanese Tier VI battleship Ise.

Detailed parameters of the ships will be published before they are added to the game, granted a successful test is conducted.

 
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You must have missed it; there was a brief burst of discussion and controversy earlier in the week, but not much over the last day or two.

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There was yesterday, and a couple threads today. People are excited, but they're a ways off still.

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44 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

You must have missed it; there was a brief burst of discussion and controversy earlier in the week, but not much over the last day or two.

Ah makes sense. 

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Now the real question everyone should be asking is it possible to balance such ships. Historically they were terrible CV's and a hamstrung BB & CA that showed up long after the IJN had many trained pilots.

 

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10 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Now the real question everyone should be asking is it possible to balance such ships. Historically they were terrible CV's and a hamstrung BB & CA that showed up long after the IJN had many trained pilots.

 

I remember reading the aviation refit of Ise-class was a waste of perfectly good Battleships.

 

The point of Tone-class' seaplanes were for scouting.  The IJN wasn't like the USN who used Carrier hangar space for scout aircraft.  They were loathe to do that.

 

Matter of fact, it was due to Tone's scouts failing to spot the ambushing USN CVs at Midway that help set the stage for American success.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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30 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The point of Tone-class' seaplanes were for scouting.  The IJN wasn't like the USN who used Carrier hangar space for scout aircraft.  They were loathe to do that.

 

Matter of fact, it was due to Tone's scouts failing to spot the ambushing USN CVs at Midway that help set the stage for American success.

Actually the US just used the planes that a CV had to scout.

 

That makes the Tone fit even worse than the ISE because it was a scout.

Edited by BrushWolf

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55 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Now the real question everyone should be asking is it possible to balance such ships. Historically they were terrible CV's and a hamstrung BB & CA that showed up long after the IJN had many trained pilots.

I don't know about historically; that has nothing what-so-ever to do with the game. But I do know that while tier 6 might be OK for Ise, I'm thinking Tone is going to have issues at tier 8. Or is there anyone out there who just can't wait to take half a cruiser up against tier 10 BBs and HE slinging CLs? 

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7 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Now the real question everyone should be asking is it possible to balance such ships. Historically they were terrible CV's and a hamstrung BB & CA that showed up long after the IJN had many trained pilots.

 

Isn't that like balancing the entire game on/in one warship? 

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10 hours ago, Umikami said:

I don't know about historically; that has nothing what-so-ever to do with the game. But I do know that while tier 6 might be OK for Ise, I'm thinking Tone is going to have issues at tier 8. Or is there anyone out there who just can't wait to take half a cruiser up against tier 10 BBs and HE slinging CLs? 

Tone had 8 203mm guns, so just bump up the reload and it would be on par with Prince Eugen. 

The issue I see is trying to manage the ship and fly planes at the same time.

Maybe a gameplay of standing off with the ship and using the planes to spot, it's historical role, mixed in with IJN 203 gunplay (does it have torps too?) especially if all it's planes have been shot down. Or if there are no CVs in the match it could be useful without all the hate from DDs, no rocket planes.

It could be interesting. What would MM rate it as CA or CV? I suppose it's going to be a Preimun ship as it doesn't fit in the tech tree.

Situational awareness and watching the mini map will be key with that ship.

Frankly, now that I think about it, I am intrigued. 

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12 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Actually the US just used the planes that a CV had to scout.

 

That makes the Tone fit even worse than the ISE because it was a scout.

There were dedicated scout squadrons in the USN, i.e. at Midway, Enterprise had VB-6 (regular bombers) and VS-6 (scouts).  But both squadrons did use the same kind of aircraft, SBDs.

http://cv6.org/company/airgroups.htm

But the USN did get rid of dedicated VS squadrons by the end of 1943.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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As I've suggested elsewhere, the way to handle the hybrid ships like this is just to let them have all 2+ cat plane types as consumables as the same time. 

And that should include the "scout bombers", which should be just consumable aircraft that fly on their own, not this "control your bombers" idea that WG is trying out next for counter-sub weapons on big ships.

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2 hours ago, GrayPanther2018 said:

Tone had 8 203mm guns, so just bump up the reload and it would be on par with Prince Eugen. 

The issue I see is trying to manage the ship and fly planes at the same time.

Maybe a gameplay of standing off with the ship and using the planes to spot, it's historical role, mixed in with IJN 203 gunplay (does it have torps too?) especially if all it's planes have been shot down. Or if there are no CVs in the match it could be useful without all the hate from DDs, no rocket planes.

It could be interesting. What would MM rate it as CA or CV? I suppose it's going to be a Preimun ship as it doesn't fit in the tech tree.

Situational awareness and watching the mini map will be key with that ship.

Frankly, now that I think about it, I am intrigued. 

I understand what you're saying, but think about this .... 

Tone carries 4 double turrets, all in front, with only the second superfiring over the first. If you boost the reload then she's too powerful when all four turrets are firing; if you don't then she's weak when only two are capable of firing. Running away she's almost completely helpless, and if you look at how close her turrets are to each other she'll need to be almost full broadside to fire all four. Honestly, this is a cruiser I would not want to play despite her "air wing".

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6 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Isn't that like balancing the entire game on/in one warship? 

What I am trying to say is the happy medium where they would not be over powered or under powered is going to be hard to hit and the Tone did not have the ability to launch strikes, just scouts.

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4 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

What I am trying to say is the happy medium where they would not be over powered or under powered is going to be hard to hit and the Tone did not have the ability to launch strikes, just scouts.

Totally agree. My concern about those ships would be if they implement "auto attack" for the aircraft... or automatic main batteries if they don't. 

Considering many people - so it seems - have issues with just designating their AA properly, I can't imagine the crowd of people wanting such a bizarre combination of a ship will really get much fun out of playing it. 

I know what playing a carrier is like. I think the word "overload" comes to mind when I imagine players taking them out to do battle. 

Tone seems an absolutely positive target for the old RTS style of aircraft flight. Otherwise, as I saw someone suggested, the planes would be a "click and go here" action, which of course is like automatic AA. What fun is that? Just an extended firing range for an extended period of time I suppose. 

I wish they'd have tackled some of the many underlying issues instead of the hybrid, at least for now. 

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31 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Totally agree. My concern about those ships would be if they implement "auto attack" for the aircraft... or automatic main batteries if they don't. 

Considering many people - so it seems - have issues with just designating their AA properly, I can't imagine the crowd of people wanting such a bizarre combination of a ship will really get much fun out of playing it. 

I know what playing a carrier is like. I think the word "overload" comes to mind when I imagine players taking them out to do battle. 

Tone seems an absolutely positive target for the old RTS style of aircraft flight. Otherwise, as I saw someone suggested, the planes would be a "click and go here" action, which of course is like automatic AA. What fun is that? Just an extended firing range for an extended period of time I suppose. 

I wish they'd have tackled some of the many underlying issues instead of the hybrid, at least for now. 

Yeah, historically the Tone was a successful ship but it's mission was scouting with her planes because the IJN CV's did not have their own scouts and not attacking with her planes. The Ise though was to be generous a piece of work that came too late to be of any use.

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I'm just anticipating the General Discussion threads when these things go Live and are harassing the DDs at the start of the game.

 

Picture this as a DD player at the start of a Random Battle.

You're sailing along.

You see the Regular CV bombers coming for you.

You also see additional bombers from the Tier VI Ise and Tier VIII Tone coming for you at different stages.

 

Imagine Tier VI CV + Tier VI Ise Division, or Tier VIII CV + Tier VIII Tone Division.  Working in conjunction to hunt DDs.

:Smile_hiding:

You think the salt is bad right now, wait when these go Live.

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20 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I'm just anticipating the General Discussion threads when these things go Live and are harassing the DDs at the start of the game.

The scary part for DDs will be if the planes for hybrids can spot.  Hybrid players will be surface ship players through and through.  They won't be stuck in the farm damage mindset that CV players have.  They will aggressively spot and attack DDs because they not only want to win the games, but unlike CVs hiding at the back of the map, hybrids will be under actual threat of DD attack.  Let's hope the air detection changes go through for DDs and it makes them more or less untouchable by planes.

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Making any type of ship effectively immune to any other type of ship is how a game like this ends up dead.  It's a horrible idea, whether it's BBs and CAs not having ASW, ships that don't have AA, or carriers being unable to find or attack DDs at all.

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6 hours ago, Umikami said:

I understand what you're saying, but think about this .... 

Tone carries 4 double turrets, all in front, with only the second superfiring over the first. If you boost the reload then she's too powerful when all four turrets are firing; if you don't then she's weak when only two are capable of firing. Running away she's almost completely helpless, and if you look at how close her turrets are to each other she'll need to be almost full broadside to fire all four. Honestly, this is a cruiser I would not want to play despite her "air wing".

True.:cap_like:

I guess it would depend on the firing arcs as modeled, and just pick gun fights with torp DDs at range.

Faster reload because you can't shoot for long.

Intriguing, maybe not easy to play. Kiteing, firing while S turning? Find an island to hide behind, though the IJN guns shoot relatively flat.

Though I don't think looking for gun fights is a prime mission. But the Dunkerque family gets away with odd turret layout, though with better firing arcs. 

Reminds me of the 2/10  B hull Monahan gun situation. (I stayed with the standard hull)

Definitely a ship for someone who wants something "different ".

More interesting than the Yahagi,  IMHO.

But the captain is going to be a very busy person. 

 

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I'm just anticipating the General Discussion threads when these things go Live and are harassing the DDs at the start of the game.

 

Picture this as a DD player at the start of a Random Battle.

You're sailing along.

You see the Regular CV bombers coming for you.

You also see additional bombers from the Tier VI Ise and Tier VIII Tone coming for you at different stages.

 

Imagine Tier VI CV + Tier VI Ise Division, or Tier VIII CV + Tier VIII Tone Division.  Working in conjunction to hunt DDs.

:Smile_hiding:

You think the salt is bad right now, wait when these go Live.

I think the ships will have either dive or torpedo bombers, but no rocket fighters. Add the proposed air detection changes and the threat to DDs should be reduced. 

As I mentioned before what class is the Tone in game CA or CV? CA I am going to guess. 

I wonder if WG's ship design team and captain skill rework team talked to each other? A hybrid ship captain might need an odd skill set in the new system. 

I looked up Tone, it had four triple torpedo mounts. And it had a top speed of 35 knots.

Edited by GrayPanther2018
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8 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

Making any type of ship effectively immune to any other type of ship is how a game like this ends up dead.  It's a horrible idea, whether it's BBs and CAs not having ASW, ships that don't have AA, or carriers being unable to find or attack DDs at all.

I wasn't suggesting actually being immune, and neither is WG.  The proposed air detection buff would mean CVs will likely need to target DDs spotted by their teammates.  It's the same interaction BBs have with DDs.  That's how balance works.  When you have massive strengths in some areas you need to have some weaknesses in others.  Right now CVs are strong against everything. 

2 minutes ago, GrayPanther2018 said:

As I mentioned before what class is the Tone in game CA or CV? CA I am going to guess.

There is no way hybrids will work in the CV ship class.  That would mean one team could get a real CV, and the other side a gimped CV, that can shoot its guns.  I can't see how that would work for team balance.

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20 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

 

There is no way hybrids will work in the CV ship class.  That would mean one team could get a real CV, and the other side a gimped CV, that can shoot its guns.  I can't see how that would work for team balance.

About what I thought too.

But an Ise, Tone and Graff Zeppelin division, the mind boggles. (good or bad maybe both)

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