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Midnitewolf

New Captain Skills: Instead of figuring out how to gouge us for more money, how about actually improving the captain skill system??

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So I have been thinking about this and everything I see so far about the new skill system seems more and more like a way for WG to make more money off us.   There is going to be more of a grind, retraining a captain is even more inconvenient and from what I hear we are losing our ability to even half retrain our captains with in game currency are just to name a few ways the new system seems to suck.   Instead of doing this, why doesn't WG actually take a hard look at is perhaps one of the worst systems in the game and actually use this opportunity to fix it???

First lets understand what I hate about the old system that I feel needs to be addressed.

First, heaven forbid you are progressing up a  tech tree and happened to like one or more of the lower tiered ships and would want to keep playing it because if you do, you have to grind a brand new captain for it.   Why is this a problem?  Because it is often not worth the effort to grind a new captain so you just never go back to playing the lower tiered ships.   

Second, unless you pony up real money,  you either have to play your new ship crippled or mothball this great new, shinny ship you just earned and are excited about and instead spend quite some time re-training that captain on a premium ship.   This is a problem because it kills off the excitement and momentum of getting a new ship. Sure you can spend money but you shouldn't have to just to enjoy the game.  

Third, way too many ships are completely dependent on having a skilled captain.  Can you imagine playing a DD without the concealment skill or if you have a very low caliber DD, playing without IFHE?  How about British CLs without the concealment skill?  Hell even a high tiered BB without the required survival skills?  Not having at least a 10+ point captain and sometimes even a 19 point captain turns fun ships into dogturds often as not.  This can discourage a player from even playing a new ship if they know they don't have a captain that has the minimum skills necessary for the ship to have any sort of competitive capability.

Fourth,  even if you plan on moving the captain from ship to ship as you up tier, often at least one or more ships in the line will require a completely different skill set than either the previous ship or the next ship in the line forcing you to either play a suboptimal build or reset you skills.   This obviously isn't much fun to deal with either.  What do you do, repec the captain just for this one ship only to have to change it again on the next ship?

Fifth, building off point four, there is no easy, painless way to change your build to accommodate the new ship.  Further, because there is no easy way to change your skills,  it discourages experimentation to try to find the right skills that fit which of course is something that is going to be even more critical to be able to do with the new system since the number of skills multiplies and often require hard trade offs when selecting one skill over another.

Sixth, makes it so newer players, already lacking  player skills and experience, as even less competitive against older players due to the fact that the newer players will often be playing ships with less skilled captains than older, established players.  This can even be true of older more experience players who don't have the time or resources to have multiple 19 point captains ready to be slotted in every time they get a new ship.  This almost confers a P2W advantage for players that can afford to spend 1000s of doubloons on retraining and special flags to assist with commander XP over those who can't.

I mean I get it, almost every part of this system is designed to force people to spend real money but none of this is good for the game environment and the fact that WG seems to want to squeeze even more money from the system just gives me a bitter taste in my mouth.

So WG instead of making the system worse, how about improving it by making it more accessible.   Do things like allow us to use the captain on any ship that he has previously been trained upon.   Reduce the amount of XP tremendously so that new players or those moving to a new line can secure 19 (or 21 point) captains much earlier in the game cycle so as to increase their competitiveness.  Make it easy for players to experiment with different builds.  Basically improve the broken parts of the system rather than making things worse than before.  I am also sure there is a way to do it while still leaving an opening to make real money off it, but please don't make it worse.

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I don't agree with everything you said, but +1 for articulation and objectivity.

You aren't really losing the ability to half train for credits. They're effectively giving you that half training for free, by cutting the XP requirement in half.

How badly the 0% instead of 50% efficiency while retraining will affect you will depend on what and how many skills you have, as well as how much you make use of them.

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19 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

I don't agree with everything you said, but +1 for articulation and objectivity.

You aren't really losing the ability to half train for credits. They're effectively giving you that half training for free, by cutting the XP requirement in half.

How badly the 0% instead of 50% efficiency while retraining will affect you will depend on what and how many skills you have, as well as how much you make use of them.

some of the skills are already at zero now when unlearned. I looked at a 10 pointer and Adrenal Rush didn't work at all. I'm sure there are others that also don't work at all. Although I am not going to waste time going through my reserves or swap captains around. It is not as cut and dry as 0% and 50%. It's 0% and less than 50% depending out what skills you had.

Edited by Sweetsie

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Quality post...

...but the game is using the free2play/pay2win model.

They have to make money...ergo the problems you state are actually features.

Pay money...suffer...or play something else. 

WG is not going to grow THIS generous.

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1 minute ago, Sweetsie said:

some of the skills are already at zero now when unlearned. I looked at a 10 pointer and Adrenal Rush didn't work at all. I'm sure there are others that also don't work at all. Although I am not going to waste time going through my reserves or swap captains around. It is not as cut and dry as 0% and 50%. It's 0% and less than 50% depending out what skills you had.

Exactly. 

I thought AR would work at 50% though.

 I thought all the modifier skills did, and it was just the "on/off" skills, like PT or RPF, that wouldn't work at all.

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28 minutes ago, Midnitewolf said:

So I have been thinking about this and everything I see so far about the new skill system seems more and more like a way for WG to make more money off us.   

Every change they make is designed todo exactly that. In another thread I mentioned if they cared about captain diversity they should add new skills and lower lesser used used down a tier. As an example, fire prevention to tier 3, which would free up a point.

Make no mistake about this change it is designed to increase revenue while providing literally nothing new to the game.

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Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

..but the game is using the free2play/pay2win model.

It really depends on your outlook IMO.

If you mainly play "Port", then this game is hugely P2W. If you mainly play WoWS, it isn't much at all.

As each player's proportion of each is different, so will their opinion of the level of P2W.

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6 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

It really depends on your outlook IMO.

If you mainly play "Port", then this game is hugely P2W. If you mainly play WoWS, it isn't much at all.

As each player's proportion of each is different, so will their opinion of the level of P2W.

Skpstr, what you mean by "playing Port"?

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7 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Skpstr, what you mean by "playing Port"?

Guessing he means buying ships for your port ptw, or playing free ships.

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I very much like the idea of training a captain once per ship.  Pay the expense or time once to train a captain to a tech tree ship and that captain is trained permanently for that ship.  I really like it, but also know it will never happen.  At a minimum, how about a decent discount to re-train a captain to an old ship?    

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21 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Skpstr, what you mean by "playing Port"?

It's what I call it when you are doing things that affect your account, but not your actual time in battle.

Rushing to T10, just to get to the "endgame" is probably the most prolific example. Speculating on events, patches, and sales (like when they changed the upgrades, I made over 20 million credits) is another one.

We all do it to a degree, but some end up being more concerned with their progress in that regard than what happens in battle.

Edited by Skpstr

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33 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Quality post...

...but the game is using the free2play/pay2win model.

They have to make money...ergo the problems you state are actually features.

Pay money...suffer...or play something else. 

WG is not going to grow THIS generous.

nailed it. Actually the reason the OP cited are the reason why WG makes money

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One thing could be changed that would make everyone extremely happy.

Make it so you can reassign 10 point..5 points , 2 points on a capt at varied prices. 

Why do we have to re do all 19 points when we just want to change AFT for another skill for the same points?

Makes too much sense I know.

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Honestly I wish you could just have a cruiser captain or BB captain, etc that could command that type of ship for his nation without resorting to training hundreds of captains. If you really wanted to min/max a specific ship like say the Georgia, you could just add captains and train them up for all US BBs where it makes sense to have a secondary build (for instance). But if you weren't worried about the ideal build for a specific ship, you could just still use you ordinary US BB captain.... Hopefully that makes some sort of sense, reading it to myself it seems confusing for some reason. 

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1 hour ago, Midnitewolf said:

So I have been thinking about this and everything I see so far about the new skill system seems more and more like a way for WG to make more money off us.   There is going to be more of a grind, retraining a captain is even more inconvenient and from what I hear we are losing our ability to even half retrain our captains with in game currency are just to name a few ways the new system seems to suck.   Instead of doing this, why doesn't WG actually take a hard look at is perhaps one of the worst systems in the game and actually use this opportunity to fix it???

Great post.  +1.

I'll be doing my review of the proposed changes this weekend at some point. 

 

Edited by KilljoyCutter
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1 hour ago, Midnitewolf said:

So I have been thinking about this and everything I see so far about the new skill system seems more and more like a way for WG to make more money off us.   There is going to be more of a grind, retraining a captain is even more inconvenient and from what I hear we are losing our ability to even half retrain our captains with in game currency are just to name a few ways the new system seems to suck.   Instead of doing this, why doesn't WG actually take a hard look at is perhaps one of the worst systems in the game and actually use this opportunity to fix it???

First lets understand what I hate about the old system that I feel needs to be addressed.

First, heaven forbid you are progressing up a  tech tree and happened to like one or more of the lower tiered ships and would want to keep playing it because if you do, you have to grind a brand new captain for it.   Why is this a problem?  Because it is often not worth the effort to grind a new captain so you just never go back to playing the lower tiered ships.   

Second, unless you pony up real money,  you either have to play your new ship crippled or mothball this great new, shinny ship you just earned and are excited about and instead spend quite some time re-training that captain on a premium ship.   This is a problem because it kills off the excitement and momentum of getting a new ship. Sure you can spend money but you shouldn't have to just to enjoy the game.  

Third, way too many ships are completely dependent on having a skilled captain.  Can you imagine playing a DD without the concealment skill or if you have a very low caliber DD, playing without IFHE?  How about British CLs without the concealment skill?  Hell even a high tiered BB without the required survival skills?  Not having at least a 10+ point captain and sometimes even a 19 point captain turns fun ships into dogturds often as not.  This can discourage a player from even playing a new ship if they know they don't have a captain that has the minimum skills necessary for the ship to have any sort of competitive capability.

Fourth,  even if you plan on moving the captain from ship to ship as you up tier, often at least one or more ships in the line will require a completely different skill set than either the previous ship or the next ship in the line forcing you to either play a suboptimal build or reset you skills.   This obviously isn't much fun to deal with either.  What do you do, repec the captain just for this one ship only to have to change it again on the next ship?

Fifth, building off point four, there is no easy, painless way to change your build to accommodate the new ship.  Further, because there is no easy way to change your skills,  it discourages experimentation to try to find the right skills that fit which of course is something that is going to be even more critical to be able to do with the new system since the number of skills multiplies and often require hard trade offs when selecting one skill over another.

Sixth, makes it so newer players, already lacking  player skills and experience, as even less competitive against older players due to the fact that the newer players will often be playing ships with less skilled captains than older, established players.  This can even be true of older more experience players who don't have the time or resources to have multiple 19 point captains ready to be slotted in every time they get a new ship.  This almost confers a P2W advantage for players that can afford to spend 1000s of doubloons on retraining and special flags to assist with commander XP over those who can't.

I mean I get it, almost every part of this system is designed to force people to spend real money but none of this is good for the game environment and the fact that WG seems to want to squeeze even more money from the system just gives me a bitter taste in my mouth.

So WG instead of making the system worse, how about improving it by making it more accessible.   Do things like allow us to use the captain on any ship that he has previously been trained upon.   Reduce the amount of XP tremendously so that new players or those moving to a new line can secure 19 (or 21 point) captains much earlier in the game cycle so as to increase their competitiveness.  Make it easy for players to experiment with different builds.  Basically improve the broken parts of the system rather than making things worse than before.  I am also sure there is a way to do it while still leaving an opening to make real money off it, but please don't make it worse.

The entire point of grinds is to get people to pay to bypass/shorten them, why would WG remove a revenue source? You might as well ask them to hand out premium ships for free to every player that just asks. 

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Quality post...

...but the game is using the free2play/pay2win model.

They have to make money...ergo the problems you state are actually features.

Pay money...suffer...or play something else. 

WG is not going to grow THIS generous.

You realize you are describing the free to play model with your statement, right? People pay money for convenience, just like how stuff costs more at 7-11 than it does at Loblaws, because the 7-11 is more convenient. 

You've been a bit of a broken record on this for the last little while. Once you accept the reality that f2p players are allowed, not catered to, you will have much more enjoyable gaming experience. 

 

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On a somewhat related note.  When WG changed the types of premium time, making a dedicated WoWs premium, and a separate WG premium; I think they missed an opportunity to do more with that change.  I would have liked to see a discount or removal of some of the nickle and dime costs if you buy WoWs premium.  WoWs premium should include no cost commander retraining and redistributing the skill points; but limit it to one use, once a week, or something like that.  That would prevent you from buying or winning one day of premium and changing all your commanders for dirt cheap.  I'd also like to see a discount on buying and demounting modules.  None of this is P2W, its just less nickle and dime frustration and you're still giving WG your money in the process.  This would give everyone more reason to buy premium time, even the long time players that have abandoned premium time since they aren't into the grind so much anymore. 

Edited by Slimeball91
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1 hour ago, Col_Nasty said:

One thing could be changed that would make everyone extremely happy.

Make it so you can reassign 10 point..5 points , 2 points on a capt at varied prices. 

Why do we have to re do all 19 points when we just want to change AFT for another skill for the same points?

Makes too much sense I know.

+1

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2 hours ago, PrairiePlayer said:

I very much like the idea of training a captain once per ship.  Pay the expense or time once to train a captain to a tech tree ship and that captain is trained permanently for that ship.  I really like it, but also know it will never happen.  At a minimum, how about a decent discount to re-train a captain to an old ship?    

 

2 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

One thing could be changed that would make everyone extremely happy.

Make it so you can reassign 10 point..5 points , 2 points on a capt at varied prices. 

Why do we have to re do all 19 points when we just want to change AFT for another skill for the same points?

Makes too much sense I know.

2 great ideas...even a discount on retraining back into a ship...

I mean...let's not even go to IRL analogies about any mechanics (not saying anybody is in this thread...just in general) if we can look past the concept of a commander forgetting how to command a ship he used to be the commander of.

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Very nice post.  I'm afraid WG does not balance profit vs. game play very well.  The captain rework looks like it is nothing more than a money grab.  They are following the trend of other games out there.

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3 hours ago, Taylor3006 said:

Honestly I wish you could just have a cruiser captain or BB captain, etc that could command that type of ship for his nation without resorting to training hundreds of captains. If you really wanted to min/max a specific ship like say the Georgia, you could just add captains and train them up for all US BBs where it makes sense to have a secondary build (for instance). But if you weren't worried about the ideal build for a specific ship, you could just still use you ordinary US BB captain.... Hopefully that makes some sort of sense, reading it to myself it seems confusing for some reason. 

Taylor, not all ships in a single line will want the same captain's build.  In some cruiser lines, certain ships are quite vulnerable to having their engines or steering knocked out while other cruisers in that same line are not vulnerable to that sort of damage.  Thus, a single build wouldn't be viable for that cruiser line.

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I haven't used doubloons (money) to retrain or reset a captain in like...over a year.    If I move a Captain from one ship to another, I obviously pay the 200k credits (no brainer) and then Elite Commander/FXP the rest.    

I'd NEVER play a captain in "training" mode, as they are basically the same as not having a captain at all.    So ships in those situations sit in dry-dock until I get enough Captain XP to make them normal again.

I'd love to see the entire system of trying to squeeze money out of us via this system done away with entirely, but I don't see it happening.   WG is frankly too greedy with the ways they attempt to extort money from their devoted fans for it to ever happen.   

I wish they'd realize that "good will" gets more spenders than attempting to squeeze the orange dry and then stomping on the pulp for a little more.   They'd make far more on premium ships and premium time, etc if their other systems weren't so greedy.   I'd stop playing before I spent a dime on resetting a captain.   

The only money they get from me these days is if a particularly interesting premium ship comes out that i decide I wanna play, and that seems to be becoming more rare these days as well.    Your loot boxes can @#$% off, will NEVER buy.

They refuse to do things that improve the actual gameplay experience, so I find it hard to justify paying them.   My side gets wiped out 11 ships (with me the lone survivor, with 40k damage and top score on the team by 400 base xp) to 1 (my kill)...I don't wanna give you money for that experience.   +/-2 Tier matchmaking, or more simply, being bottom tier against ships 2 tiers higher than you, horrible experience, not gonna reward you for that awful experience with my money, especially since its so common.   I could boot up the game right now, pick any T8 ship in my lineup and there is basically a 90% chance there will be T10 ships in that game.    T10 ships are exponentially more powerful than anything in T8, just compare Kremlin to any T8 BB in the game.  Compare Smolensk to any T8 cruiser in the game.   Compare Halland to any T8 DD in the game.  Its not even competitive.

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4 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Quality post...

...but the game is using the free2play/pay2win model.

They have to make money...ergo the problems you state are actually features.

Pay money...suffer...or play something else. 

WG is not going to grow THIS generous.

I have about 50 premium ships and use a premium sub when I play....WG makes plenty of money.   Also I am not opposed to a game I enjoy making money but there comes a point where it goes beyond charging a reasonable price for a reasonable product and everything WG is motivated by greed.  I think that is why it irks me that instead of making the game more fun and enjoyable with this captain skill re-work it just seems to make it more grindy and painful, all to "encourage" people to spend more money.

At the end of the day your right, WG isn't going to be this generous but unless we call them out on it CONSTANTLY and make them feel they are risking customers by continuing to be overly greedy, it is just going to continue to get worse.

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4 hours ago, Midnitewolf said:

So I have been thinking about this and everything I see so far about the new skill system seems more and more like a way for WG to make more money off us.   There is going to be more of a grind, retraining a captain is even more inconvenient and from what I hear we are losing our ability to even half retrain our captains with in game currency are just to name a few ways the new system seems to suck.   Instead of doing this, why doesn't WG actually take a hard look at is perhaps one of the worst systems in the game and actually use this opportunity to fix it???

First lets understand what I hate about the old system that I feel needs to be addressed.

First, heaven forbid you are progressing up a  tech tree and happened to like one or more of the lower tiered ships and would want to keep playing it because if you do, you have to grind a brand new captain for it.   Why is this a problem?  Because it is often not worth the effort to grind a new captain so you just never go back to playing the lower tiered ships.   

Second, unless you pony up real money,  you either have to play your new ship crippled or mothball this great new, shinny ship you just earned and are excited about and instead spend quite some time re-training that captain on a premium ship.   This is a problem because it kills off the excitement and momentum of getting a new ship. Sure you can spend money but you shouldn't have to just to enjoy the game.  

Third, way too many ships are completely dependent on having a skilled captain.  Can you imagine playing a DD without the concealment skill or if you have a very low caliber DD, playing without IFHE?  How about British CLs without the concealment skill?  Hell even a high tiered BB without the required survival skills?  Not having at least a 10+ point captain and sometimes even a 19 point captain turns fun ships into dogturds often as not.  This can discourage a player from even playing a new ship if they know they don't have a captain that has the minimum skills necessary for the ship to have any sort of competitive capability.

Fourth,  even if you plan on moving the captain from ship to ship as you up tier, often at least one or more ships in the line will require a completely different skill set than either the previous ship or the next ship in the line forcing you to either play a suboptimal build or reset you skills.   This obviously isn't much fun to deal with either.  What do you do, repec the captain just for this one ship only to have to change it again on the next ship?

Fifth, building off point four, there is no easy, painless way to change your build to accommodate the new ship.  Further, because there is no easy way to change your skills,  it discourages experimentation to try to find the right skills that fit which of course is something that is going to be even more critical to be able to do with the new system since the number of skills multiplies and often require hard trade offs when selecting one skill over another.

Sixth, makes it so newer players, already lacking  player skills and experience, as even less competitive against older players due to the fact that the newer players will often be playing ships with less skilled captains than older, established players.  This can even be true of older more experience players who don't have the time or resources to have multiple 19 point captains ready to be slotted in every time they get a new ship.  This almost confers a P2W advantage for players that can afford to spend 1000s of doubloons on retraining and special flags to assist with commander XP over those who can't.

I mean I get it, almost every part of this system is designed to force people to spend real money but none of this is good for the game environment and the fact that WG seems to want to squeeze even more money from the system just gives me a bitter taste in my mouth.

So WG instead of making the system worse, how about improving it by making it more accessible.   Do things like allow us to use the captain on any ship that he has previously been trained upon.   Reduce the amount of XP tremendously so that new players or those moving to a new line can secure 19 (or 21 point) captains much earlier in the game cycle so as to increase their competitiveness.  Make it easy for players to experiment with different builds.  Basically improve the broken parts of the system rather than making things worse than before.  I am also sure there is a way to do it while still leaving an opening to make real money off it, but please don't make it worse.

I don't mean to sound nasty, but it sounds to me like you're just complaining about real money being part of the mix.  You do realize that WG has to make money to continue to produce new content as well as keep the servers running, pay their employees, and a zillion other little details that go into running a game software company?

 

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3 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Taylor, not all ships in a single line will want the same captain's build.  In some cruiser lines, certain ships are quite vulnerable to having their engines or steering knocked out while other cruisers in that same line are not vulnerable to that sort of damage.  Thus, a single build wouldn't be viable for that cruiser line.

True, but you could train a different captain only where needed.

For example, you could have a KM BB captain suitable for Gneisenau to GK, and one for Bayern on down.

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