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JediMasterDraco

Using Swedish DDs in Co-op?

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I'm having a bit of a rough go using these guys in Co-op and figured I'd come here to see if there were any tips or tricks to using them in that game type. I've noticed a few factors that together make these probably the worst line of warships to use in co-op.

1. They have relatively low HP, even for destroyers. This is especially a problem in co-op given the targeting algorithm for bots usually means that they go for the poor sap with the least HP (and aim bots mean they don't suffer from human error).

2. Their guns, while potent, suffer from short range.

3. Their torpedoes lack the sheer alpha potential of most DDs, meaning they lack the ability to YOLO and still do significant damage. And that's leaving aside the bots' 100k torpedo detection system.

4. The above is all exacerbated by the absence of smoke, leaving them without the primary damage mitigation tool of most DDs (the French at least have good gunnery range, decent torpedo alpha, and are FAST).

If anyone has any thoughts or tips on the matter I'd appreciate it. At this point all I can really do is YOLO and hope my damage exceeds 20k.

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18 minutes ago, JediMasterDraco said:

Their torpedoes lack the sheer alpha potential of most DDs, meaning they lack the ability to YOLO and still do significant damage. And that's leaving aside the bots' 100k torpedo detection system.

1) IKEA DDs are great at stacking flooding DOT, this source of damage is more important for them than for other DDs. If you arent getting lots of flooding damage, reevaluate your strategy. 

2) Get very close. Ideally inside seven km. The enemy won't have much time to dodge, and narrow spreads will hurt a lot more.

3) I seem to recall that bots don't react to torps as well when you don't have them target locked. So target lock to see the aim assist, then turn it off, and only then you launch. Though I'd appreciate if someone else confirmed this.

4) Don't forget to use guns when appropriate. BB looking the other way and nobody else is close? Time to rain HE onto the superstructure.

5) SE helps with DD HP, a lot. Don't forget, it also makes your repair party more powerful. 

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Just now, vak_ said:

1) Get very close. Inside seven km. They won't have much time to dodge

2) I seem to recall that bots don't react to torps as well when you don't have them target locked. So target lock to see the aim assist, then turn it off and only then you launch. 

3) IKEA DDs are great at stacking flooding DOT.

1) and 2) True enough given the speed of Viking torps, of course there's the matter of first neutralizing the opposing DD and then surviving at that range given the relatively narrow window between the advised range and your detection.

3) Not really in my experience. Even when I specifically go for the bow and stern of BBs, I can never seem to get a flood. Might just be RNGesus making me its [edited].

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5 minutes ago, JediMasterDraco said:

1) and 2) True enough given the speed of Viking torps, of course there's the matter of first neutralizing the opposing DD and then surviving at that range given the relatively narrow window between the advised range and your detection.

3) Not really in my experience. Even when I specifically go for the bow and stern of BBs, I can never seem to get a flood. Might just be RNGesus making me its [edited].

Sorry, I already edited my answer above by adding and reshuffling stuff, so it makes more sense :)

Yes, DoT is a probability thing. Hitting with more than one torp helps (thus getting close and abusing narrow spreads). Running flooding flags helps, if you got enough of them. Sometimes you won't get floods, but often times you will.

Yes, getting close to enemy ships is dangerous. You need to be aware of radars, airplanes, and enemy DDs. But it is absolutely devastating if you remain unseen - against humans too, btw.

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The Swedish DDs don't really work in co-op, for all the reasons you listed.  If you don't have smoke to farm damage/take out the DDs/cruisers so you can then yolo torp the BBs, you're kinda screwed.  I've not tried the French or RN DDs, but I'd guess they don't do all that well in co-op either.

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2 minutes ago, vak_ said:

Sorry, I already edited my answer above by adding and reshuffling stuff, so it makes more sense :)

Yes, DoT is a probability thing. Hitting with more than one torp helps (thus getting close and abusing narrow spreads). Running flooding flags helps. Sometimes you won't get floods, but often times you will.

Yes, getting close to enemy ships is dangerous. You need to be aware of radars and of enemy DDs. But its absolutely devastating if you remain unseen - against humans too, btw.

Since it relates to co op, most of what you said do not really apply to co op

DoT is among the things that does poorly in co op, bots don't live long enough to give you appreciable amounts of DoT let alone from Pan Euro DDs

 

Radar does not exist for the bots in co op.

@JediMasterDraco

The best way to use pan euro DDs in co op is to speed boost to whichever island is viable to use that is as close to the center as possible and use the cover to drop torps on bots that would eventually pass on by.

Alternatively if another DD or smoke ship is nearby you, stick close to them to use their smoke if they pop it.

 

Always try to not be the first spotted as it would give you some buffer time to shoot and/or drop torps before the hail of shells start coming your way.

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1 minute ago, Slimeball91 said:

The Swedish DDs don't really work in co-op, for all the reasons you listed.  If you don't have smoke to farm damage/take out the DDs/cruisers so you can then yolo torp the BBs, you're kinda screwed.  I've not tried the French or RN DDs, but I'd guess they don't do all that well in co-op either.

I've found that Brit DDs perform fairly well in Co-op. Their tight maneuvering tends to throw off bots' aim and single-shot torps are precise and devastating if you've close to ideal range. As for the French, while they lack smoke, their speed and gunnery range means they play keep away until the CAs are dead and then rush in to murder BBs with a mess of torps.

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52 minutes ago, vak_ said:

3) I seem to recall that bots don't react to torps as well when you don't have them target locked. So target lock to see the aim assist, then turn it off, and only then you launch. Though I'd appreciate if someone else confirmed this.

4) Don't forget to use guns when appropriate. BB looking the other way and nobody else is close? Time to rain HE onto the superstructure.

Bots get priority target & always have.

When you launch torps & then switch to guns their priority target indicates guns are locked on them & let's them know torps are on the way...just like it does for humans.

When you launch torps don't switch to guns until after the torps are at their destination...unless you switch your target to another ship before switching to guns so the torpedoed at target doesn't get the warning.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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Back into gun fights so you can kite the enemy DDs. They are the easy xp/credits. 

As mentioned above find islands to ambush the cruisers around, then you can kite away from the battleships and try to get fires/floods to stick. 

 

They are way more work than even the French DDs in coop, all their strengths are better for Pvp. 

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Don’t know. I only use Dutch And Polish destroyers. (Friesland, Blyskawica.)

Tried Oland in the PT and couldn’t stand it.

The torpedoes are about as useful as Surstromming, and the lack of smoke borderline crippling...

...but that’s just me.

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Well, assuming that my current rate of XP acquisition holds steady, I'll only have to endure another 18 days before the line has been ground out. Thank the log.

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IKEA DDs suck a** in Co-op because they literally have zero alpha damage to them.

 

There are other DDs with fast reloading torps, and they hit 50% or 100% harder than they do.

 

For the purpose of PVE I lost all respect for the IKEA DD Line when I took the Tier VI one in Co-op, struck some Tier V BB with all my torps and it was still there.  I circled around the bot BB with zero concern until the torps reloaded again and finally put another 100% hit torp salvo finally putting it down.  In another game at the "Strait" map, I took this same DD hiding behind the island at the northern, central edge of the map.  A bot Aoba... A Cruiser... comes by.  I rush out, drop ALL my torps into this CRUISER and it survived.

 

I watched the Tier IX, X IKEAs do torpedo attacks against targets in High Tier and they hardly do damage.  It was pretty sad watching the Tier X drop all its torps into a GK and the bot barely felt it.

 

But this is PVE, where things are pretty different to Randoms.  Co-op is a very short duration game and for DDs, short range torpedo drops for Maximum Alpha Damage is the norm.  That is how DDs there make their money, how they turn in a good profit even in a quick 4 minute game.  This is why IKEA DDs just suck there.

 

This isn't like Randoms where players are skirmishing at arm's length for most, if not all the game, and opportunities for short ranged fights aren't really there.

How many chances in Randoms do you get to get in point blank torpedo attacks?  Because that's the norm for DDs in Co-op.

Torpedo range isn't as important because you're doing close ranged drops in Co-op anyways, i.e. Gearing should be using harder hitting Fletcher torps and not the longer ranged, weaker damage option.

 

Let's look at some torpedo power at the highest of tiers:

 

IX Ostergotland

2x4 torps, 10.7k dmg, 100 seconds reload

 

IX Fletcher

2x5 torps, 19k dmg, 106 seconds reload

10 torps dropped instead of 8 of the IKEA, you almost do twice the damage, and still have a just as fast torpedo reload.

 

IX Yugumo - F3 torpedoes, emphasis on a combination of reload, power, speed.

2x4 torps, 21.3k dmg, 104 seconds reload

Same torpedo quantity as Ostergotland's, but your torpedoes do more than twice the damage and you still reload just as fast.

 

IX Mogador

2x3, 2x2 torps, 18.4k dmg, 77 seconds reload

10 torps like Fletcher which is a healthy amount.  Torps don't hit as hard as Fletcher or Yugumo but the reload is very fast, faster even than the 3 prior listed DDs.

====

X Halland

Same as Ostergotland but 2x5 torps instead.

 

X Gearing - Using Fletcher torps

Same as Fletcher but reload at 103 seconds.

Halland finally catches up in torpedo quantity, but Gearing using Fletcher torps hits almost twice as hard still, and reloads just as fast.

 

X Shimakaze - Still using F3 torps

3x5 torps, 21.3k dmg, 131 seconds

Reload gets longer but Shima is compensated with a powerful 3x5 torpedo attack.  If things line up correctly, Shimakaze can sink 3 healthy ships in a single attack run, planting 5 torps into each target.  The high IJN torpedo alpha really comes into play in putting down BBs with high TDS values like Yamato-class, Kremlin.

 

X Kleber

Same as Mogador but with 4x3 torpedo layout.

Same powerful Mogador torpedo attack, but now you got 12 fish, compared to Halland who packs 10 weak torpedoes.  You even still reload at 77 seconds.

====

 

I can see the value of the IKEA Torps in PVP, but the strength of those torpedoes is meaningless in PVE.  Most especially when coupled with the high AA in some of those later ones to get CVs to leave you alone or make them pay.  But you can find non-IKEA DDs that still reload torpedoes just as fast as the IKEAs and hit almost twice as hard, or more.  Again, the reality in PVE for DDs is paradise compared to PVP.  Targets are literally coming towards you and presenting themselves to be sacrificed on the Altar of the Torpedo Gods, whereas in PVP, players are wary and making it hard to land torps.  This is the game mode where GK is a God and Slava has terrible value because Co-op is a brawl 95% of the time.

 

The FR DDs feature no smoke also, just like the IKEAs, but FR DD torpedoes have power to them.

 

DDs in PVE derive so much of their rewards from high alpha damage via torpedo attacks.  Grinding IKEA DDs out in PVE just looks painful.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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I love the Swedish DDs in randoms, but they are probably the single worst ship line to take into PVE. 

They will consistently underperform any other ship line in damage.

Now if you're having fun with them, nothing wrong with driving fast and dumping a bunch of low damage torps. 

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7 hours ago, vak_ said:

1) IKEA DDs are great at stacking flooding DOT, this source of damage is more important for them than for other DDs. If you arent getting lots of flooding damage, reevaluate your strategy. 

2) Get very close. Ideally inside seven km. The enemy won't have much time to dodge, and narrow spreads will hurt a lot more.

3) I seem to recall that bots don't react to torps as well when you don't have them target locked. So target lock to see the aim assist, then turn it off, and only then you launch. Though I'd appreciate if someone else confirmed this.

4) Don't forget to use guns when appropriate. BB looking the other way and nobody else is close? Time to rain HE onto the superstructure.

5) SE helps with DD HP, a lot. Don't forget, it also makes your repair party more powerful. 

Bots Dodge regardless.

Concealment and using a simple tactic should help.

Hit and run.

Pick an area that has considerable cover to attack them around corners, but be in the process of running away. Never assume they hit. Even if they do, you are not spotted and can stalk the ship.

Open water, get close turn away then dump, pop speed then to open up the distance.

Avoid sailing near map edges because bots do have rpf. Once in stock rpf range they assess the last contact.

If you never made contact, then avoid it like the plague.

Guns are short range and should be used situational like when bots are facing mains away and you are out of secbat range. Focus large targets only.

That IJN cruiser looks tempting, but that slowpoke BB is a tasty nugget.

Flood chance is highest at ends of ship where torpedo protection is not present.  But after an initial hit, you have to go center because those ends that were hit might saturate the next spread.

My biggest criticism of Ikea's are that they have no means of retreat without smoke as a coverage protection feature. They are extremely vulnerable out in the open.

The Ikea's are lurkers. Lurk the islands and run after a drop. Pretend the kitchen is on fire 🔥. Run.

Ferny herny gurny spurny purpy ooofy grooty foolthy cashuly rashkuly dracooly. 

*Beaker is confused and shakes a lot.

 

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Pan EU DDs are even worse in Co-Op than in randoms.

Their torps are ment for DOT, and an miraculous flood, which should be a lot more% than it is now to really mean something. They have no alpha. And bots defy physics on their torp avoidance abilities.

Guns are useless, no punch and very low fire chance. You don't have the DPM to be able to capitalize using them.

And no smoke. Which is not that useful in Co-Op, as you normally don't have the minute or so to stay in it to farm damage, as bots charge into smoke as flies on crap.

So basically you have less tools than in random 

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7 hours ago, JediMasterDraco said:

I'm having a bit of a rough go using these guys in Co-op and figured I'd come here to see if there were any tips or tricks to using them in that game type. I've noticed a few factors that together make these probably the worst line of warships to use in co-op.

1. They have relatively low HP, even for destroyers. This is especially a problem in co-op given the targeting algorithm for bots usually means that they go for the poor sap with the least HP (and aim bots mean they don't suffer from human error).

2. Their guns, while potent, suffer from short range.

3. Their torpedoes lack the sheer alpha potential of most DDs, meaning they lack the ability to YOLO and still do significant damage. And that's leaving aside the bots' 100k torpedo detection system.

4. The above is all exacerbated by the absence of smoke, leaving them without the primary damage mitigation tool of most DDs (the French at least have good gunnery range, decent torpedo alpha, and are FAST).

If anyone has any thoughts or tips on the matter I'd appreciate it. At this point all I can really do is YOLO and hope my damage exceeds 20k.

In no particular order....

~Weak torpedo warheads are disappointing, but a *feature* of the Ikea DD's.  The flip-side is that they have good AA for a DD, especially at higher tiers.
~ Play style (in Co-op) would involve using an Ikea DD by managing the detection radius and avoid getting spotted.  AVOID getting spotted and stealth torpedo attack.  Rinse and repeat.
~ In randoms the threat of DD torpedoes is enough to give player-controlled ships reason to consider alternatives to pushing and advancing, while in Co-op the 'Bots do not lack for courage.
    Using islands as cover/concealment and setting-up torpedo ambushes is viable.  If the target is a full-health BB or CV, then you may need an exit plan because the full Ikea DD torpedo salvo won't sink it.  But a cruiser is likely to sink.
~  'Bot CV's tend to aim badly.  Dodging their attacks is not a huge chore.  Keep AA turned off until the planes attack you.  If they attack, swat the planes down by turning on your stronk AA.  Earn plane shot-down ribbons.
~  Lack of smoke is common with several French DD's.  And the French are often more easily detected.  (Know thy detection radius and try to avoid being seen.)
~  Ikea DD's benefit from concealment improvements via Captain's Skills and ship modules (and yes, I know every ship benefits, but DD's do so more than a Yamato BB).
~  While Co-op is a "feeding frenzy", try to be patient enough to plan and set-up attacks that keep your ship at minimal risk of detection, provide spotting & scouting information, and stealth-torpdeo attacks.
     For large ships, more than one attack may be required, so be patient while your torpedoes re-load and you re-position the ship out of harms' way, until you're ready for another attempt.
~  Might even try coordinating your efforts with team-mates?  Silly idea, but who knows, it just might pan out someday.

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Tier VIII USN DD Kidd with a 1x5 torpedo layout does almost as much damage as Tier IX Ostergotland with 2x4 torpedoes.

 

VIII Kidd

1x5 torps, 16.6k dmg

About 83k dmg

 

IX Ostergotland

2x4 torps, 10.7k dmg

About 85.6k dmg

 

Also, high AA DD while fun in Co-op isn't imperative as it is in PVP.  The Bot CV AI can't hit sh*t, most especially a DD player that knows what WASD keys are.  I don't even mind Bot planes hovering over my Shimakaze because I know the CV can't hit me, so it's free airplane kills for me.  I pray planes come to me even in my IJN DDs and their worthless AA in boats like Yukikaze, Shimakaze, etc.

Planes are literally XPs and Credits falling from the skies that even IJN ships can profit mightily off of, even with their terrible AA.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

A bot Aoba... A Cruiser... comes by.  I rush out, drop ALL my torps into this CRUISER and it survived.

Sounds like damage saturation at work.  With upgraded torps the T6 Ikea DD has a roughly 45k damage alpha strike capability, and Aoba has 31.9k HP with just 4% TDS.

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13 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

The Swedish DDs don't really work in co-op, for all the reasons you listed.  If you don't have smoke to farm damage/take out the DDs/cruisers so you can then yolo torp the BBs, you're kinda screwed.  I've not tried the French or RN DDs, but I'd guess they don't do all that well in co-op either.

^ I agree. The Swedish DDs rely on sustained damage and that doesn't happen much in co-op where it is all about the alpha. They aren't horrible but other DDs will out dps them. Also the bots focus on DDs like a laser sight and the Swedish DDs don't have the speed or smoke to escape detection. The heal is nice but the game rarely will last long enough for more than one. The Swedish are actually pretty useful in operations though. Those will last long enough for your heals to come back on and lone enough for multiple torpedo salvos to make up for poor damage. 

The French and RN DDs do well. The French DDs hit like trucks with both guns and torpedoes and the short nature of the matches plays very well with the reload booster. I also found out that the bots have a hard targeting the really fast higher tier French DDs. They yolo the bots very well and can actually survive it. It's actually funny watching some of the bots try to traverse their turrets to follow a Le Terrible or Mogador at full speed and close ranges. 

The UK DDs do well with their smokes and narrow-spread torps. The smokes come back on line quickly enough to make good use of multiples even in co-op. 

The DD line I found fares the worst in co-op is the low-tier Russians. The torpedoes are so short ranged its hard to even yolo. They aren't terrible by any means but they are less useful in co-op than the other lines. They aren't particularly great in operations either.

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14 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

The Swedish DDs don't really work in co-op, for all the reasons you listed.  If you don't have smoke to farm damage/take out the DDs/cruisers so you can then yolo torp the BBs, you're kinda screwed.  I've not tried the French or RN DDs, but I'd guess they don't do all that well in co-op either.

You can do well with them if you don't play like you do outside of co op, if I'm playing any DD I just focus on being a squirrel and let them chase me as I kite, you can torp them  without suiciding if you time it right, that and turning on/off your targeting and launch them by whatever quick info you got.

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1 hour ago, khorender_1 said:

You can do well with them if you don't play like you do outside of co op, if I'm playing any DD I just focus on being a squirrel and let them chase me as I kite, you can torp them  without suiciding if you time it right, that and turning on/off your targeting and launch them by whatever quick info you got.

I guess it depends on your idea of doing well.  I find many DDs to be really strong in co-op once you figure out how to maximize your damage output.  I'm currently grinding through Kitakaze, and before that in the Akizuki, and Fletcher.  I'd finish on the top the team in probably 75% or more of my games.  You can't do that kiting around.

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5 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I guess it depends on your idea of doing well.  I find many DDs to be really strong in co-op once you figure out how to maximize your damage output.  I'm currently grinding through Kitakaze, and before that in the Akizuki, and Fletcher.  I'd finish on the top the team in probably 75% or more of my games.  You can't do that kiting around.

Thanks for the info on the IJN, myself I've always let the bots or players make the first moves and just reacted from there, not much of a DD fan so I just play those and CV in co op.

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13 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I guess it depends on your idea of doing well.  I find many DDs to be really strong in co-op once you figure out how to maximize your damage output.  I'm currently grinding through Kitakaze, and before that in the Akizuki, and Fletcher.  I'd finish on the top the team in probably 75% or more of my games.  You can't do that kiting around.

Most DDs with any sort of kick with their torpedoes will do well scoring wise in Co-op.  The high alpha damage of torpedoes and getting in attacks with lots of hits, i.e. short ranged attacks, is profitable.  Do one or two such attacks in a typical 3-5 minute Co-op game, you're likely coming out on top in BaseXPs as a DD.  But it has to be done right.  You can't YOLO right in the face of bot DDs & Cruisers that can gun you down.  You can gun down the bot DDs.  Torpedo-less Cruisers and Battleships are what you're really after.  Some torpedoes reload quickly enough that you can chuck torpedoes as the bots are 12km away from your cap edge, and they'll be reloaded again by the time they're a handful of kilometers away.  Circumstances are right, you can rush right in for the killer damage with high hit % torpedo attacks landing lots of damage.

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