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tm63au

The Case Against Hybrids, But Have The Ships In There Original Class Design

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Tone has from the time I can remember been one of the sought after ships in the game specially the RTS day and to some degree into the REWORK.

The ship has been in game but what from what have heard over the years from various sources WG tried to make it work but it broke the game so it was removed.

I have posted this before if WG wants both ships in game FINE I will buy them both but only as ships in there original design, meaning IJN Ise is in her Battleship configuration with full main armament and IJN Tone as a Cruiser and just have her planes working in the capacity of Recon or Ship Board Fighters if WG can make it work properly.

As a CV player I might have been happy to see them in game as hybrids if we still had RTS but we don't. 

Lets look at some issues that may arise if hybrids do get into the game.

1. Right now there is fascination and curious interest by the announcement, after reading the threads and what people are thinking and writing in the affirmative on the idea its seems a great idea in theory, I'm certain a number of these positive posters are quite possible members of the ANTI CV crowd, well that's great now lets see how enthusiastic they are 6 /12 months down the track when there facing 3 CV's per side on a regular basis the wolves will baying for blood I'm certain and calls for " REMOVE CV's " will be louder than ever.   

2. The ships themselves in this hybrid configuration will be a nightmare to play particularly IJN Ise  she's slow no rear armament, IJN Tone is faster she can disappear out of sight, Ise on the other hand is toast if caught her amidship turrets will not save her nor will her planes, and before anyone counters with the " but we already have Battleships with forward turret guns only " we do but the vast majority are fast ships and all have  secondaries turrets at there stern IJN Ise does not. 

Its hard enough now  for players trying to learn CV play

3.  Now I don't no how popular IJN Ise in on PS4 version of WOWS but I watch the video below some weeks back and this was enough for pass on the idea of hybrids.

WG by all means bring these ships into the game as premiums but in there original configurations. 

 

   

Edited by tm63au
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I think the most useful aspect of these ships will be their versatility.  WG will make them overall statistically balanced as they do, but the better players will be able to take advantage of the different aspects of the ship to get more out of them than the sum of their parts.  There are a ton of interesting occasions where you could use these ships to your advantage, and do better than a standard cruiser or BB.

For example maybe you've been trading with an enemy, and he's really low but has managed to kite away out of range and he's going to get away to heal up and fight again - you can launch your TB's and go finish him.  Or perhaps you have a tanky enemy BB bow in that you're struggling to damage, you can fly a TB run from his flank, then go back to setting him on fire (potentially stacking fires and floods), and alternate between the two.  Maybe you've got an enemy cruiser tucked in behind an island and you want to try and move him out so you and your team can gun him down - out come the TB's!  Perhaps you have an enemy DD you can't find that is making your flank difficult - well now you have planes that you can go hunting and spotting with!

These are just a few of the things I thought of immediately.  No doubt these ships will open up new and interesting tactics that aren't immediately apparent as well as the ideas I just listed above.

Overall, it sounds pretty fun to me!

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WG's been digging around in the back room files recently from the look of it. Ships we never thought would again see the light of day. Kitakami and now Tone. Next we'll have Shinano. 

To be fair, both ships have been heavily requested.

But yeah, you're right there's some serious problems with the hybrid design. There's a reason Tone never made it into the game in the beginning. And now it's arguably worse, as it's much harder to do simultaneous play. I already dislike having no control over the CV while I'm flying. I doubt it's going to be any better for a cruiser that's supposed to be in active gunfights with the enemy. It'll be interesting to see how she develops.

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I don' think it is a matter of balance, I don't think players will be able to split between the aircraft mode as it currently exists, and ship mode, and be able to generate useful damage. I do want it tested though. I just don't think it will work just shifting between plane control and gun control. Ise launches planes and sends them out. It'll have a small squadron because it isn't a full CV. While you are piloting the planes around the guns come online. You have no way of knowing if there is anything to shoot at unless you drop the plane. You can either delay firing the guns while you control the planes in which case you are losing firing cycles and thus dps from the guns, or you dump the planes to go back and fire the guns in which case you wasted all the time flying out there and possibly lost the planes to AA. Aircraft control as it currently works doesn't allow you to split attention. You can tell that playing Graf Zeppelin or Richtofen and trying to use the secondaries, and those are a bit easier because they operate automatically. 

To me the only way that the hybrid concept will work as they envision it is for you to somehow be able to stay in ship mode and launch planes to attack while still in ship mode. Basically you "fire" the planes similar to firing a gun and they behave like very long-range guns. They fly out, drop bombs, and come back. You then just switch between them like switching between guns and torpedoes without ever leaving ship mode. 

I definitely want to see Tone and Ise both in the game and I would like them to test the concept out, but I don't think there is any chance it will work. With the way plane control works now you just can't do two things. You have to actively control the planes at all times and be launching them as often as you can and that doesn't work if you have to drop the planes constantly to fire the guns. Ise basically has the same firepower as T5 Kongo without its planes but is much slower and has terrible gun arcs due to the flight deck. It'll be stuck either acting as a really bad T5 BB, or  acting as a terrible CV. It can't do both at once because the two require completely different controls. 

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Just watching a bit of the video shows me a bit of confusion by the player. At this point of the match his priority should be MB then planes. It appears in Blitz he doesn't manually control the plane drops as you do in WoWS? If that's true he seems to be switching backwards. In any case...

It is in a very slight way, like playing a GZ but you don't have to actually fly the planes. 

If people are po'd by carriers, imagine all the good carrier players switching to these because? Because if they don't autodrop those planes you won't be able to succeed with guns or planes. So the planes will likely have to autodrop, which makes playing planes a hella lot easier. Target the target, switch back to guns, blap, blap, blap, switch back to planes... 

I think it could get ugly fast. 

 

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4 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

To be fair, both ships have been heavily requested.

By whom? I've never seen a single thread that I can recall where people were heavily requesting these ship. I may have seen them, may even has posted in a thread, but requesting these... things? Can't believe I'd ever have asked them to do it. 

Nope. I'd have asked for existing things to be FIXED, to be set RIGHT, to be evenly BALANCED before ever thought of injecting these things into the game. 

Don't forget subs. Destructible icebergs (I'd forgotten those until this week when someone brought them up). 

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3 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

WG's been digging around in the back room files recently from the look of it. Ships we never thought would again see the light of day. Kitakami and now Tone. Next we'll have Shinano. 

To be fair, both ships have been heavily requested.

But yeah, you're right there's some serious problems with the hybrid design. There's a reason Tone never made it into the game in the beginning. And now it's arguably worse, as it's much harder to do simultaneous play. I already dislike having no control over the CV while I'm flying. I doubt it's going to be any better for a cruiser that's supposed to be in active gunfights with the enemy. It'll be interesting to see how she develops.

Shinano actually is easy to do. The other three, we'll have to se. I think Kitikami is doable. Tone and Ise not so much. At least not like that.

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4 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

By whom? I've never seen a single thread that I can recall where people were heavily requesting these ship. I may have seen them, may even has posted in a thread, but requesting these... things? Can't believe I'd ever have asked them to do it. 

Nope. I'd have asked for existing things to be FIXED, to be set RIGHT, to be evenly BALANCED before ever thought of injecting these things into the game. 

Don't forget subs. Destructible icebergs (I'd forgotten those until this week when someone brought them up). 

Actually they have been requested. Tone is requested pretty regularly. I've made several requests for it myself. I just didn't think they would propose it like this. It's in the game files already.

 

Edited by Tzarevitch

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4 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Basically you "fire" the planes similar to firing a gun and they behave like very long-range guns. They fly out, drop bombs, and come back. You then just switch between them like switching between guns and torpedoes without ever leaving ship mode. 

Kind of like missles, eh? Just fire and forget. 

Gib me planes like a carrier I don't have to fly, no control at all... make it like the AA I have too, no need to control... but gib me the benefits of planes, you know, spotting, shooting down other planes, providing air cover and of course, dropping bombs, dropping torpedoes and of course launching missles.

All fire and forget. 

So about all the player has to do is move his ship about, occasionally firing the main batteries while shouting out "pow pow pow... BOoom!" 

You want this game? 

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1 minute ago, Tzarevitch said:

Actually they have been requested. Tone is requested pretty regularly. 

Again - show me massive numbers of requests by hundreds of people. Otherwise, their is simply no way I'll believe this is a result of a handful of people making such a request. 

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2 minutes ago, Herr_Reitz said:

By whom? I've never seen a single thread that I can recall where people were heavily requesting these ship. I may have seen them, may even has posted in a thread, but requesting these... things? Can't believe I'd ever have asked them to do it. 

Nope. I'd have asked for existing things to be FIXED, to be set RIGHT, to be evenly BALANCED before ever thought of injecting these things into the game. 

Don't forget subs. Destructible icebergs (I'd forgotten those until this week when someone brought them up). 

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/124668-ijn-tone/

That's just the first couple results. I'm not saying I agree with including it, but it's absolutely very highly requested. And WG is going to answer.

Icebergs were tested and apparently deemed unviable. Though I've learned to never say never when it comes to WOWS.

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1 minute ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Again - show me massive numbers of requests by hundreds of people. Otherwise, their is simply no way I'll believe this is a result of a handful of people making such a request. 

I didn't say "massive numbers of requests by hundreds of people." She has been requested pretty regularly. She ship is known to have been in the game files for years. It is one of the most famous IJN cruisers. It has been asked for pretty regularly since people were aware of it. 

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1 hour ago, tm63au said:

The ship has been in game but what from what have heard over the years from various sources WG tried to make it work but it broke the game so it was removed.

I have been playing since closed Beta and I have NEVER seen Tone in the game in ANY configuration, and don't think it ever has been in the game. Fake news.

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Just now, Umikami said:

I have been playing since closed Beta and I have NEVER seen Tone in the game in ANY configuration, and don't think it ever has been in the game. Fake news.

Well look i'm only going off a number of posts way back  (2015/2016 ) when I first came to the forum, of course they may have been talking about on the or a test server perhaps,i guess i should wrote that but I always take the server as being in game though not live.

What I read was that it had something to with the launching of there spotter planes, the fourth plane launch seem to cause a problem, why i have no idea because in recent times ships could have up to six planes but you never had the time to use them all.

Now you could be right and what I read was fake news it was so long ago and I didn't see it myself but i did see a screen shot of the ship in recent times that was i believe sold on Chinese server and I also believe WG asked that the ship be removed from that server.

Done a bit of searching found two posts first one on the sail on the Chinese server  

This second one has people discussion what might be the issues of IJN and not being game 

  

Like I said I read it on these and others earlier on and your right could be all wrong.

cheers  

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1 hour ago, Umikami said:

I have been playing since closed Beta and I have NEVER seen Tone in the game in ANY configuration, and don't think it ever has been in the game. Fake news.

It has been lurking in the game files for a long time. Here's a post from 2015 comparing it to Atago.  I don't think it was ever made available in the game though.

 

Edited by Tzarevitch

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Here's what I was talking about regarding controlling the planes. Here's Ise in World of Warships Blitz. In Blitz you vector the planes to where you want them to go and they attack on their own. Even then the commentator talks about Ise being a multitasking nightmare. For regular WoWs you have to directly fire the guns and directly control the planes at the same time. I think for Ise and Tone to work as they described they would have to make the interface work like Blitz where you send the planes to attack but the AI handles the attacking, like this:

 

 

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I can't see why it would be particularly difficult to control both planes and the ship.  You play in ship mode, then when you see a good opportunity to use your TB's you put your ship in a position that you can safely leave it (drop detection, or kite away for example), and then you fly the attack, recall and you're back to playing your ship.

If you can recognise the right situations to use the planes, you'll get a lot out of them, and be able to do things that regular BB's and cruisers simply can't do.

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6 hours ago, tm63au said:

Tone has from the time I can remember been one of the sought after ships in the game specially the RTS day and to some degree into the REWORK.

The ship has been in game but what from what have heard over the years from various sources WG tried to make it work but it broke the game so it was removed.

I have posted this before if WG wants both ships in game FINE I will buy them both but only as ships in there original design, meaning IJN Ise is in her Battleship configuration with full main armament and IJN Tone as a Cruiser and just have her planes working in the capacity of Recon or Ship Board Fighters if WG can make it work properly.

As a CV player I might have been happy to see them in game as hybrids if we still had RTS but we don't. 

Lets look at some issues that may arise if hybrids do get into the game.

1. Right now there is fascination and curious interest by the announcement, after reading the threads and what people are thinking and writing in the affirmative on the idea its seems a great idea in theory, I'm certain a number of these positive posters are quite possible members of the ANTI CV crowd, well that's great now lets see how enthusiastic they are 6 /12 months down the track when there facing 3 CV's per side on a regular basis the wolves will baying for blood I'm certain and calls for " REMOVE CV's " will be louder than ever.   

2. The ships themselves in this hybrid configuration will be a nightmare to play particularly IJN Ise  she's slow no rear armament, IJN Tone is faster she can disappear out of sight, Ise on the other hand is toast if caught her amidship turrets will not save her nor will her planes, and before anyone counters with the " but we already have Battleships with forward turret guns only " we do but the vast majority are fast ships and all have  secondaries turrets at there stern IJN Ise does not. 

Its hard enough now  for players trying to learn CV play

3.  Now I don't no how popular IJN Ise in on PS4 version of WOWS but I watch the video below some weeks back and this was enough for pass on the idea of hybrids.

WG by all means bring these ships into the game as premiums but in there original configurations. 

 

   

would love the tone to have this.  been wait for that ship for some time now

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