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Ensign_Cthulhu

Did you say you wanted Tone and Ise?

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This looks interesting. 

People that hate airplanes in this game will lose their minds if more than CV can use them.

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We'll see.  I am actually kind of excited about this,  and I am definitely excited about the idea of battle carrier and plane tender lines to grind through.

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5 minutes ago, xalmgrey said:

This looks interesting. 

People that hate airplanes in this game will lose their minds if more than CV can use them.

Very interesting.

Good riddance. Only had a few toxic cells to lose anyway.:cap_haloween:

Edited by thebigblue
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Do you really want to lose control of your guns when you launch a couple of planes? As I replied to Lert in Happa's thread the only way I see them working is the planes will auto attack the target you select for them.

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16 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Do you really want to lose control of your guns when you launch a couple of planes? As I replied to Lert in Happa's thread the only way I see them working is the planes will auto attack the target you select for them.

This would have been easily feasible in the RTS CV control days, but it will be interesting to see how WG does this with the CV Rebork system which demands 100% attention.

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WOOOOOO YES Tone is such a cool ship and so is Ise, I know you all dislike carriers but they could add Shinano as a mirror ship to FDR, or Akagi even, miss me Akagi despite it being a slightly different Kaga, could make a coal carrier.

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4 minutes ago, Raven2303 said:

WOOOOOO YES Tone is such a cool ship and so is Ise, I know you all dislike carriers but they could add Shinano as a mirror ship to FDR, or Akagi even, miss me Akagi despite it being a slightly different Kaga, could make a coal carrier.

The Shinano has a very small flyable plane capacity about equal to the Langley which doesn't give it much striking power in the expected tier 10 slot. The FDR is a CV that has a strong alpha more like the RTS days but very slow follow up attacks.

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Woot! It's about time!

Sure hope the torp planes are for testing purposes only as they are NOT historical (and a little OP). These ships should be carrying dive bombers.

On 3/10/2020 at 12:54 PM, capncrunch21 said:

During WWII, the Imperial Japanese Navy used six ‘hybrid’ (half regular ship, half aircraft carrier) aviation vessels to help fill the fleet’s need for naval scouting aircraft. These six hybrid ships consisted of four cruisers and two battleships. Their primary task was to provide long range reconnaissance for whatever operation they were assigned to, however they could also be used as line combatants (though at a somewhat less effective level than their pure combat counterparts – especially since most of their aircraft were slow, clumsy floatplanes).

The following stats are how I would like to see ‘hybrid’ ships implemented in World of Warships. I’m sure Wargaming already knows there is great interest in these ships and would sell very well as premiums. The problem is WG can’t seem to get them to work in a fashion they like. I hope my suggestions below can help out.

 

Tone-class (two ships built) 

49644869166_b51ab2589f_c.jpg

The first of the hybrids were the sister ships Tone and Chikuma (Tone-class). Originally intended to be 5th and 6th ships of the Mogami-class series of cruisers, the design flaws of the earlier ships lead to them being finished as the different Tone-class. Though still having many of the original lines of the Mogami-class, the Tone-class moved all main gun turrets (four dual 8” guns) forward of the superstructure, leaving the aft part of the ship completely open for aircraft use.  This allowed up to 8 aircraft to be stored and launched by catapults from the ship (typical load being 6 planes) -usually a mix of Mitsubishi F1M2 and Aichi E13A floatplanes (in-game max speed around 130kts).

49644343748_5094291097_c.jpg Note the F1M2 fighter on the port catapult and E13As being prepped.

I would classify Tone at Tier 8, the same as the Mogami, as much of the Tone-class's combat capabilities are the same. Though this ship has less guns and worse turret arcs than the standard Mogami, this is compensated for with the addition of a small number of player controlled aircraft. Below is the player interface for the Tone-class. 

49645119377_ac3119155a_z.jpg 

As can be seen the #4 button launches a squadron of E13A floatplane dive bombers. Of course, just like CV controls, once planes are launched, the player would be viewing from the planes and the controls would toggle to the aircraft User Interface. The squadron size of four aircraft is rather small because of the limited capability (and requirements) of the vessel as a scouting cruiser and not a full carrier. This would give the player the ability to scout with these planes (as was its historic role) but also in a very limited attack capacity. Please note that these floatplanes are completely outclassed at Tier 8 and so would be very fragile to AA or fighter attacks, thus limiting their attack usefulness. Their small number and frailty would also emphasize the player’s use of the ship as a cruiser and not as a carrier, since the main portion of its damage inflicted on the enemy would come from its own guns and torpedoes. The Tone’s hybrid status would give it more in-game aviation consumable flexibility however than the average cruiser. Because of this, the ship would carry 3 charges of two F1M2 fighters (as these were relatively short range and could only carry a miniscule bomb load, so as to be practically useless in an attack role and therefore not a player controllable option). In addition, it would also have 4 charges of a standard spotter consumable representing the E13A aircraft used in the conventional artillery spotter role.

 

Mogami –class 1943 (one ship built) 

49645154872_1fbe8176fa_c.jpg

As the war progressed, the need for scouts became more and more important. So much so that the lead ship of the Mogami-class, the Mogami herself, was converted to a hybrid aviation scout cruiser in 1943. Her aft two turrets were removed and replaced with a flat storage deck extending off her existing aviation platform. This increased the aircraft capacity to 11 planes. These were exactly the same types as carried by the Tone-class; with eight E13A and three F1M2 floatplanes being typical. Because of the removal of nearly half her guns  (now less than Tone) and the huge gun blind spot created to the aft of the ship, even with the addition of slightly more player controlled aircraft, the Mogami remains at Tier 8 (remember the E13A  floatplanes are very much outclassed at this tier).

49645159127_66920cea92_c.jpg Note the three F1M2 fighters in front of the eight E13As.

Because of the higher number of aircraft carried compared to Tone, the scouting/attack squadron size is increased to 6 aircraft (this could be increased by WG to 8 aircraft if they feel the ship’s gun firepower (total damage output) isn’t up to par for Tier 8). The aviation consumables would be 3 charges of three F1M2 fighters and 4 charges of standard spotter aircraft (E13As). Below is the player interface for the Mogami (1943).

49644837706_e366c2f6c8_z.jpg

 

Oyodo-class (one ship built)

49645169237_46f7af50d8_c.jpg

The last of the four hybrid aviation cruisers is the little talked about Oyodo (Oyodo-class) - probably because she is less sexy looking than the others due to the lack of a visible flight deck. Built originally as a submarine operations command ship she was already considered obsolete in 1943 when she was completed. Her primary armament consisted of two ‘hand me down’ 6” triple-gun turrets from the Mogami-class (the same turrets that also went to Yamato and Musashi as secondary batterys). These turrets were both mounted forward, leaving the aft of the ship open. This is where a catapult and hanger were placed giving the ship a capacity of 6 aircraft (1 on the catapult, 1 on the deck, and 4 in the hanger). Historically it carried E13A floatplanes (yes, the same types as the other aviation cruisers).  I would place this ship at Tier 5, but only because of the player controlled aircraft ability – this ship has the same number of guns as a Furataka but smaller in size and no ability to fire aft as well as the lack of any torpedo armament (even at Tier 5 it will see a high number of Tier 7 games which might be too much for it and its weak aircraft).

49644886791_b3495acfbb_c.jpg

It has a four plane scout/attack squadron just like Tone. But as it only carried one type of plane, it has no fighters (the E13As only had a single rear-firing machine gun making them useless as fighters). However it does have a 2 charge standard spotter (E13A) consumable - - that probably won’t be all that useful considering the smallish 6” guns. Below is the player interface for the Oyodo.

49644838781_2392464006.jpg

 

Ise-class 1944 (two ships built)

47499354312_59bdf0a39d_c.jpg

And that leads us to the last, and arguably most interesting hybrid ships, the battleship carriers Ise and Hyuga (Ise-class). Originally part of the Fuso-class of battleships, these ships had a slight redesign before completion, rearranging their midship turrets to a superfiring configuration, making them a new class. After the Battle of Midway the shortage of aircraft carriers became acute for the IJN. Both these battleships were slated for complete conversion to full-fledged carriers to help fill the gap, but due to shortages of time and resources, they were turned into hybrids instead (sadly now performing poorly in BOTH roles). They completed their conversions near the end of 1943 but aircraft weren’t embarked until summer the following year (1944).

The aft two main gun turrets were removed and replaced with a short flightdeck/hanger construction. All casement secondary guns were removed as well, but four additional 5” dual-purpose turrets were added for anti-aircraft/shipping work (as well as many more 25mm anti-aircraft guns and anti-aircraft rockets – see the three box-looking mounts under the side of the end of the flight deck in the deck detail picture below). The lack of a true full length flightdeck and the small hanger space limited the type and number of aircraft carried aboard. Historically the ship was to carry between 20-24 aircraft (depending on which source you read) with 9 stored in the small hanger and 11 to 15 stored on the flight deck and catapults.  The total complement consisted of about half conventional Yokosuka D4Y dive bombers (the same as those on the Tier 6 Ryujo CV) and half Aichi E16A floatplanes (the new replacement for the ubiquitous E13A having a top in-game speed around 145kts). The E16As, just like their older E13A brothers, could be used in either scouting and or bomb attack roles. The D4Ys on the other hand were used purely in an attack role. Because the D4Ys weren’t floatplanes, they could not return the ship (the flight deck was much too short to land aircraft – the floatplanes were recovered by crane after landing next to the ship just like the other hybrid aviation vessels). Once launched from the ship’s catapult, the D4Ys were required to land either at a nearby land base or on a conventional carrier with a flight deck long enough to accommodate their landing. This would mean in game terms they are a one use only attack. The advantage was the D4Ys could carry twice the bomb load of E16As as well as being much faster and more maneuverable.

49645131002_b9cd2566d7_c.jpg Note the D4Y dive bombers and hanger elevator in operation.

As this hybrid battleship class had a substantial part of their firepower (both main guns and secondaries) taken away to accommodate the aircraft conversion and because of the now quite restricted turret arcs of the rear guns – especially turret #4 – along with the kind of aircraft it carries (again, the one-use D4Ys being exactly same as those on the T6 Ryujo, with the E16A floatplanes probably considered T5 aircraft being somewhat worse than the D4Ys), this ship would come in at Tier 6. Think of it as a large, somewhat crippled Kongo with (mediocre) airplanes. Below is the player interface for the Ise-class hybrid battleship carrier. 

 49581825401_7dba34a6ef_c.jpg

Hitting the #3 key launches an 8 plane squadron of E16A dive bombers that work just like any ordinary CV squadron (can be used many times, replenishing lost planes over time).Hitting the #4 key launches the one-use 12 plane squadron of D4Y dive bombers. These planes would be controlled by the player just like any other aircraft squadron, but once used (all attack or are shot down), they are gone for the rest of the game, so make sure you don’t hit the F key early with these! To round out its aviation capabilities the Ise-class hybrid ships would have a 4 charge spotter plane consumable (E16As).

 

 

I think these hybrid ships would be very good sellers in the Premium shop. It gives WG four new (and historical!) ships to generate revenue from as well as providing a new playstyle for many of its customers. I know the Tone is already modeled for the game and the Ise is done for WoWs Blitz (so would probably be an easy addition). Mogami is also modeled, with only some mod work to the existing ship required for the aviation version. The only truly new ship WG would have model from scratch would be the Oyodo (as far as I know). Seems like a win for everyone; we get cool new ships and WG gets a hefty cash return for work already done.

Providing for player controlled planes on these vessels (as opposed to making them auto-attacks like in the simplified Blitz game) adds a dimension of flexibility, skill, and fun that many would appreciate. Granted this playstyle wouldn’t be for everyone (like CVs) and the switching between ship and planes would take some practice (like CVs). But these ships are primarily just that, combat ships (not carriers). Their aviation capability should be a supplement to that – not the primary focus (as with true CVs). Keeping that in mind would make these ships super fun to play. They may not be the best gunfighters and their planes certainly aren’t the best, but they can do some things other ships can’t:  a Jack-Of-All-Trades excelling at nothing (well, other than making money for WG :cap_like:).

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8 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

The Shinano has a very small flyable plane capacity about equal to the Langley which doesn't give it much striking power in the expected tier 10 slot. The FDR is a CV that has a strong alpha more like the RTS days but very slow follow up attacks.

Shinano can be added today, it fits the current system.

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17 minutes ago, Torenico said:

Shinano can be added today, it fits the current system.

Probably with the same slow regen that the FDR has without the alpha. Like I said not much striking power for a tier 10.

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It would be funny if you think about it.

 

The Tone / Ise you should have killed but somehow got away and is running away, but is now lobbing bombers back at you :Smile_trollface:

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2 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Here they come, baby: 

 

And about time, too.  :-)
 

 

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You might note that the flight deck for the Ise and Hyuga had 8" of ferroconcrete applied to them to add weight to the ship for trim and stability purposes making up for the loss of weight aft of two turrets and their ammunition.  The model shown above also shows three of the six rocket projectors for anti-aircraft defense on the stern.  These were a Japanese take on the British 7" UP launchers that proved totally useless at the beginning of the war.

Although...  If the 3 Shiki incendiary shells and these launchers were modelled in the game it would make for a interesting visual effect since the combination would look like 4th of July fireworks going off--not that they'd be very effective, just great visual entertainment.

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So how will these fit in to CV-restricted modes, should WG decide to run either ranked or CW without CVs again?  What about operations?  I'm not sure how they will make these playable if the player has to take over control of the aircraft while relegating the ship to autopilot for the duration of the air attack.  Seems like you are asking to have the ship deleted.  Not rushing to judgement though, I am genuinely curious how they will attempt to make this work.

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DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICIIIIIIIIIIIOUS

 

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5 minutes ago, Murotsu said:

You might note that the flight deck for the Ise and Hyuga had 8" of ferroconcrete applied to them to add weight to the ship for trim and stability purposes making up for the loss of weight aft of two turrets and their ammunition.  The model shown above also shows three of the six rocket projectors for anti-aircraft defense on the stern.  These were a Japanese take on the British 7" UP launchers that proved totally useless at the beginning of the war.

Although...  If the 3 Shiki incendiary shells and these launchers were modelled in the game it would make for a interesting visual effect since the combination would look like 4th of July fireworks going off--not that they'd be very effective, just great visual entertainment.

The IJN AA rockets were just a simple time fused explosive rocket, I don't know how well they actually worked, but it was a far more sound concept than the RN's UPAA rocket system. There's no reason the IJN system shouldn't have worked at some level.

the UPAA system spread a cloud of small bombs, hanging from parachutes on long wires in the path of an oncoming aircraft, under the theory that an aircraft would snag a wire and drag the bomb into itself. It took too long to launch enough to make the cloud, it could be flown around, and the bombs had a habit of drifting back down to the ship that launched them.

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

Do you really want to lose control of your guns when you launch a couple of planes? As I replied to Lert in Happa's thread the only way I see them working is the planes will auto attack the target you select for them.

If you're hiding behind an island, does it really matter lol?

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

Do you really want to lose control of your guns when you launch a couple of planes? As I replied to Lert in Happa's thread the only way I see them working is the planes will auto attack the target you select for them.

The planes would be stand off weapons to use when your ship is concealed / out of gun range, or transiting.

You definitely won’t be using the planes if you can/need to use guns.
 

Also could be used as a last resort, when you are low on hp and you see coming the shells that will kill you, launch the planes!

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8 minutes ago, Uncle_Lou said:

So how will these fit in to CV-restricted modes, should WG decide to run either ranked or CW without CVs again?  What about operations?  I'm not sure how they will make these playable if the player has to take over control of the aircraft while relegating the ship to autopilot for the duration of the air attack.  Seems like you are asking to have the ship deleted.  Not rushing to judgement though, I am genuinely curious how they will attempt to make this work.

Well, the ranked or CW would sort itself out, you'd be bringing a gimped ship for the sake of bringing one squadron of aircraft. I don't see losing 20% to 33% of your fire power worth it, especially when the planes and guns do not compliment each other well.

Operations could be interesting, and would probably be where the Ise would be best suited. Either as the CV, or sharing CV duty with a full fledged CV. If you know the operation, then it shouldn't be a big deal knowing when you can be flying planes, and when you need to be on the guns driving your ship.

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