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Panda_913

Fix Fighters...

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like 90% of the time, my fighters legit do nothing vs enemy cv

 

a good cv player knows that fighters don't do crap and will bomb you anyways 

 

fix fighters they are supposed to counter the cancer boats not fly around and be blind all day

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2 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

We need Air-to-Air player controlled combat  :fish_viking:

that would be fun

 

plus then maybe they could add in a good way to counter subs using planes

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5 minutes ago, Panda_913 said:
8 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

We need Air-to-Air player controlled combat  :fish_viking:

that would be fun

It's not coming back. Giving a ship the ability to directly neutralize its mirror on the other team amplified the skill difference between them too much, back when we had it in the RTS days. A good CV player would erase the other CV's planes like they never existed and not skip a beat on his own damage.

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1 minute ago, Edgecase said:

It's not coming back. Giving a ship the ability to directly neutralize its mirror on the other team amplified the skill difference between them too much, back when we had it in the RTS days. A good CV player would erase the other CV's planes like they never existed and not skip a beat on his own damage.

Its not player controlled Air to Air combat. But some of the new CV captain skills seem to go along way towards CV fighters doing better. 

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they actually did this in Pacific Storm; Lesta studios had a flight combat sim, with naval combat. That's what I'd like to see WoWS/WoWP become, tbh. Multiple portals to one single game. Pilot queues up to play a game, a CV player launches an airstrike, the airplane player gets the mission the CV player launched, but the plane player is flying the plane. CV player grades the pilot on how he did, rewarding doing things the orders might not have anticipated or stated. CV player says "airstrike the DD" but plane player takes out the hitherto unspotted CV, he's getting top marks, for instance.

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12 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

It's not coming back. Giving a ship the ability to directly neutralize its mirror on the other team amplified the skill difference between them too much, back when we had it in the RTS days. A good CV player would erase the other CV's planes like they never existed and not skip a beat on his own damage.

The skill amplifier was the Strafe mechanic. Implemented in the current design it would imply a fighter squadron actively chasing and shooting an enemy squadron, if anything it would be a skill equalizer. Erasing the other CV wouldn't be easy nor fast to achieve, it would be more an area denial mechanic than an effective shut down.

10 minutes ago, Premeditated_Marder said:

they actually did this in Pacific Storm; Lesta studios had a flight combat sim, with naval combat. That's what I'd like to see WoWS/WoWP become, tbh. Multiple portals to one single game. Pilot queues up to play a game, a CV player launches an airstrike, the airplane player gets the mission the CV player launched, but the plane player is flying the plane. CV player grades the pilot on how he did, rewarding doing things the orders might not have anticipated or stated. CV player says "airstrike the DD" but plane player takes out the hitherto unspotted CV, he's getting top marks, for instance.

This would be so neat... one can dream.

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I don't really see the new CV captain skills changing much.   

First of all, you would almost have to specialize in fighters when in reality, 90% of your end game reward is based on damaging other ships, not shooting down enemy planes.   I highly doubt many CV captains are going to give up on things that benefit their ability to strike the enemy just to do a bit better in the combat air patrol field.

Second, the skills don't really do that much.   You get a slightly bigger aggro radius and a little bit faster response time and not a whole lot more, oh and this is at the expense of being able to use a fighter as a spotter which I feel is a much better use of the fighter consumable most of the time.

What they need is a more active way for players to engage in air-to-air combat.  I personally think that when you launch fighters, you should be able to drop the rockets givng up your ability to use that squadron for anti-ship attack and instead engage enemy planes if you want.  Leave the fighters player controlled so the player can fly them into the enemy formation, then once they are near the enemy formation give the fighter as strafing crosshair or pattern, allow the player to trigger it much like you would trigger a rocket attack on a ship and if the player's fighters timing is right, they potentially shoot down some of the enemy planes.  Give them maybe 2-3 passes kind of like any other normal attack and all the while the enemy player can dodge, dip, duck and dodge while their being attacked.   Also give each DB and TB squadron some AA of their own which can be used to shoot down fighters.  I mean most of these DB and TB had a rear facing gun for protection so that could be used to counter and/or possible disrupt the fighters.  Maybe give TB and BD a defense AA fire consumable or something that can pack a whallop on a incoming fighter attack. 

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12 minutes ago, Premeditated_Marder said:

they actually did this in Pacific Storm; Lesta studios had a flight combat sim, with naval combat. That's what I'd like to see WoWS/WoWP become, tbh. Multiple portals to one single game. Pilot queues up to play a game, a CV player launches an airstrike, the airplane player gets the mission the CV player launched, but the plane player is flying the plane. CV player grades the pilot on how he did, rewarding doing things the orders might not have anticipated or stated. CV player says "airstrike the DD" but plane player takes out the hitherto unspotted CV, he's getting top marks, for instance.

That sounds a lot like Eve Online's system. Or, I think it does. Didn't they add in some sort of fighter combat and ground combat that linked several different games together?

But really.. it'd take too long to coordinate and whatnot. Time taken to load into a match, super short mission time for the guy playing the fighter, also.. what is the CV player doing if their not flying their planes?

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11 minutes ago, Enorats said:

That sounds a lot like Eve Online's system. Or, I think it does. Didn't they add in some sort of fighter combat and ground combat that linked several different games together?

But really.. it'd take too long to coordinate and whatnot. Time taken to load into a match, super short mission time for the guy playing the fighter, also.. what is the CV player doing if their not flying their planes?

Well, there would be NPC pilots like there are bots for unfilled spots, and the CV player would be driving the CV, launching other missions, I would think. The CV flight ops would probably look different than it does now, for sure. But I would definitely be interested in playing this. 

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2 minutes ago, Enorats said:

But really.. it'd take too long to coordinate and whatnot. Time taken to load into a match, super short mission time for the guy playing the fighter, also.. what is the CV player doing if their not flying their planes?

Just brainstorming. The CV can control its own planes as regular business. If available an X number of "Ace Pilots" (human pilots) get attached to the CV and can take full first person control of planes (drawn for the CV reserves pool) and carry on missions for the match duration. The CV player marks the missions for the pilot to perform, the pilot gets rewards for fulfilling missions. With these scheme, there could be more than one squadron in the air at any time.

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5 hours ago, eviltane said:

Its not player controlled Air to Air combat. But some of the new CV captain skills seem to go along way towards CV fighters doing better. 

It looks like you'll be able to choose whether your fighters are general purpose, or specialised for intercepts.

It's a good idea IMO, it'll just matter how good the fighters actually are when specialised.

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5 hours ago, Edgecase said:

It's not coming back. Giving a ship the ability to directly neutralize its mirror on the other team amplified the skill difference between them too much, back when we had it in the RTS days. A good CV player would erase the other CV's planes like they never existed and not skip a beat on his own damage.

Not like we have a mechanic that does this reliably to a potato CV anyway in the rework. :cap_hmm:
Doesn't even require the good CV player to lift a finger, the potato CV will essentially just deplane themselves while dealing even less damage than in RTS.

That said, active fighter combat doesn't really work as the flight model is far too simple for any kind of real skill based dogfighting and the inherent concept of the rework requiring there to be no counterplay to a CV.

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On 9/10/2020 at 5:43 PM, ArIskandir said:

We need Air-to-Air player controlled combat  :fish_viking:

Why not having something more "realistic"? No rocket bombers. Spotters or recce squadrons, they fly and see the enemy fleet, but can't attack it, somehow can detect but almost undetectable planes... Manually controlled fighters that can kill other planes, needs a plane to plane "gaming experience". And much more painful torp and dive bombers.

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On 9/10/2020 at 11:37 AM, Panda_913 said:

like 90% of the time, my fighters legit do nothing vs enemy cv

 

a good cv player knows that fighters don't do crap and will bomb you anyways 

 

fix fighters they are supposed to counter the cancer boats not fly around and be blind all day

It takes a few sec for the fighter to get there and to orbit.

Make sure to drop it before it needs to get there.

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My thought would be to tie the fighters to the attack squadron you're currently using. You'd be able to detach them over a friendly, or keep them with the flight. That way, if you're flying into enemy fighters, you'd have cover, but if you needed/wanted to, you could forego that cover and provide it to a friendly instead. It would bring back CV/CV combat, but keep it at the same level as with any of the other ships. Personally, I think that part of the problem with the current system is that CVs generally go out of their way to avoid each other entirely. Having an attached fighter screen to your attack squadron would be one way to alleviate that.

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1 hour ago, franz_von_goltz said:

Why not having something more "realistic"? No rocket bombers. Spotters or recce squadrons, they fly and see the enemy fleet, but can't attack it, somehow can detect but almost undetectable planes... Manually controlled fighters that can kill other planes, needs a plane to plane "gaming experience". And much more painful torp and dive bombers.

Give this Piggy some bacon and proper fighter squadrons. 

Heck, give me CVs with controlable fighter squadrons and I'll be playing CVs that very same day.

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In the old CV ways the fighters erased the enemy CV's fangs by destroying first their fighters, (Preferably over AA ships in your fleet) then their torp planes and finally the bombers.

When all of that was erased, only then you launch your attack planes. Enemy CV sits there unable to do anything. Equals victory.

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On 9/10/2020 at 11:37 AM, Panda_913 said:

like 90% of the time, my fighters legit do nothing vs enemy cv

 

a good cv player knows that fighters don't do crap and will bomb you anyways 

 

fix fighters they are supposed to counter the cancer boats not fly around and be blind all day

I would prefer that non-CV fighters (catapult) just went away and make normal AA work better.

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7 hours ago, Nolo_00 said:

My thought would be to tie the fighters to the attack squadron you're currently using. You'd be able to detach them over a friendly, or keep them with the flight. That way, if you're flying into enemy fighters, you'd have cover, but if you needed/wanted to, you could forego that cover and provide it to a friendly instead.

...that is exactly what we currently have?

Your fighter consumable is either ready, aka with your flight, or being used somewhere else. Having it with your flight naturally means your are able to use it offensively. Using it somewhere else, aka detaching it, means that area is being "covered" (well, not really, only in theory").

And ofc with the way fighters work (aka being completely useless in air denial) and the necessity to actually fly over a friendly to provide cover there is absolutely no reason to use fighters for anything other than offensive purposes. On the contrary attempting to provide fighter cover is actually actively hurting your chances to win.

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On 9/10/2020 at 11:37 AM, Panda_913 said:

like 90% of the time, my fighters legit do nothing vs enemy cv

 

a good cv player knows that fighters don't do crap and will bomb you anyways 

 

fix fighters they are supposed to counter the cancer boats not fly around and be blind all day

Fighters discourage the second and especially the third pass, they're not really meant for preventing the first.

I just save fighters for when I'm attacked by torpedo bombers, you dont want to deal with flooding DOT.

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On 9/10/2020 at 11:53 AM, Edgecase said:

It's not coming back. Giving a ship the ability to directly neutralize its mirror on the other team amplified the skill difference between them too much, back when we had it in the RTS days. A good CV player would erase the other CV's planes like they never existed and not skip a beat on his own damage.

That was my experience in middle-tier play. I didn't advance CVs up to high tier. However, IJN CVs dominated those matches. So many torpedo bomber squadrons got sent out that you couldn't shoot them all down before they devastated your team enough to turn the match.

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Truthfully, the bulk of the time that fighters fail to work was because the player launched them too late. They take a few seconds to launch, start their patrol, and then lock on and engage. If the planes are making their attack run on you it's too late. If attacking planes are in your area and heading even close to your direction launch them immediately. Truthfully, they are more effective deterring attacks than they are stopping attacks in progress. The CV is more likely to see them and go somewhere else.

That being said, they DO bug out a lot. Wargaming needs to fix this but I've seen them despawn suddenly, and soometimes they fail to attack the incoming planes for no clear reason. Last night I was finishing missions in Lexington and I attacked a ship with the fighters up. I expected the fighters to engage me but for some reason they didn't. They locked on, and then reset and went back to patrolling. The player had them up well before I got there but they seem to have bugged out and then failed to engage properly. 

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