Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Furrocka

Coop Bots

48 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

3
[SOUS]
Members
9 posts
4,281 battles

Serious question, So can someone explain the bots for me please? Reason I'm confused is when I'm in a dd in coop, I will go far wide, where no ship should be going, and no joke the carrier (if one) and other bot ships will be heading there too, but when i play Cruisers or BBs they all just go striaght ahead from spawn. So Wargaming allows the bots to see our moves before we are spotted? I get bots and making pve difficult. But when I see that and you give us missions to get caps and then we decide to do it in coop and all I get is standard battle and nothing else.... yeah... starting to think mm works against you and not RANDOM. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
340
[SIMP]
Members
1,376 posts
11,495 battles
5 minutes ago, Furrocka said:

Serious question, So can someone explain the bots for me please? Reason I'm confused is when I'm in a dd in coop, I will go far wide, where no ship should be going, and no joke the carrier (if one) and other bot ships will be heading there too, but when i play Cruisers or BBs they all just go striaght ahead from spawn. So Wargaming allows the bots to see our moves before we are spotted? I get bots and making pve difficult. But when I see that and you give us missions to get caps and then we decide to do it in coop and all I get is standard battle and nothing else.... yeah... starting to think mm works against you and not RANDOM. 

The bots hate DDs and bot captains have all the skills available to them, so they are using RDF, also, since the bots are the server and the server are the bots, they know where you are at all times and act accordingly. They are a single entity of many ships and coordinate as such.

 It will teach you to stay alive, because the bots only miss shots when they want to miss shots.

Enjoy!!

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
877 posts
6,656 battles

That's not always the behavior, but if I had to venture a guess (having designed and written a lot of AI over the years), WG has probably produced what's called an expert decision matrixed system.  In those, there are multiple layers that are randomly chosen (probably limited by ship type), which ultimately lead to a path the ship will take and what type of action it will take along the way (e.g. CVs and squadron type).  Layers and decisions can be varied by weighting for various intelligence levels (level of the bots and yes - your location on occasion), resulting in different behaviors for each ship.  Depending on the ships involved, the level of smartness the RNG sets up for each ship, the overall skill level of the player team, and the map selected, you're going to get wildly different battles.

WG appears to tweak the AI layers with each release, so the bots are getting 'smarter', and if the RNG is against you, it's going to seem like they can read your mind (especially if things align so they know where you are in addition to what ship you're in).  I would guess they add new behavioral choices each release.

Hopefully, that answered your question, though it was a slightly wonky answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,136
[TDRB]
Members
5,162 posts
13,743 battles

Bots, with some exceptions, attack the ship with the lowest HP. While bots cannot start shooting until you are within detection range & line of sight, they will track you. Use this to your advantage, I've sunk as many as 6 ships in a coop on a DD. Granted it has only happened once but I'm not a great DD driver either.

Yes, it does seem like MM give those needing capture/assist ribbons standard battle 95% of the time. Don't grind those missions, capture when the opportunity presents itself if possible.

I needed defend ribbons & my team mates would enter the cap area & stay until the enemy were sunk than sail out leaving it uncapped. Some like grieving other so you it may not be wise to say anything in chat. Most only have sinking a red ship on their mind & are completely unaware of anything else happening in a coop. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
877 posts
6,656 battles
1 minute ago, _cthulhu_ said:

The bots hate DDs and bot captains have all the skills available to them, so they are using RDF, also, since the bots are the server and the server are the bots, they know where you are at all times and act accordingly. They are a single entity of many ships and coordinate as such.

 It will teach you to stay alive, because the bots only miss shots when they want to miss shots.

Enjoy!!

Not entirely.  The bot captains' skill sets are based on 3 levels: Basic, Experienced, and Expert.  I don't know for certain, but I'd guess that Basic = 7 pts, Experienced = 12 pts, and Expert = 19 pts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
877 posts
6,656 battles
1 minute ago, kgh52 said:

Bots, with some exceptions, attack the ship with the lowest HP. While bots cannot start shooting until you are within detection range & line of sight, they will track you. Use this to your advantage, I've sunk as many as 6 ships in a coop on a DD. Granted it has only happened once but I'm not a great DD driver either.

Yes, it does seem like MM give those needing capture/assist ribbons standard battle 95% of the time. Don't grind those missions, capture when the opportunity presents itself if possible.

I needed defend ribbons & my team mates would enter the cap area & stay until the enemy were sunk than sail out leaving it uncapped. Some like grieving other so you it may not be wise to say anything in chat. Most only have sinking a red ship on their mind & are completely unaware of anything else happening in a coop. 

Target selection appears to be (in order of priority):

1) Lowest HP

2) Closest

3) Most dangerous to the bot (i.e. capable of causing the most damage)

Edited by JAKeller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,664 posts
42,552 battles
9 minutes ago, _cthulhu_ said:

The bots hate DDs and bot captains have all the skills available to them, so they are using RDF, also, since the bots are the server and the server are the bots, they know where you are at all times and act accordingly. They are a single entity of many ships and coordinate as such.

 It will teach you to stay alive, because the bots only miss shots when they want to miss shots.

Enjoy!!

Rpf, oh yeah. They use that. But new skills coming down and rpf is dead, gone, never existed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,136
[TDRB]
Members
5,162 posts
13,743 battles
Just now, JAKeller said:

Target selection appears to be (in order of priority):

1) Lowest HP

2) Closest

3) Most dangerous to the bot (i.e. capable of causing the most damage)

With DD's having the lowest starting HP they are the top priority.

Grinding French DD's I would charge  in until I was spotted by a bot DD then fire my torpedoes in that general direction as I turn & headed to the closes friendlies.  The bots almost always followed. Once they were engaged or sunk I would race to the bots BB & cruisers & do some damage.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,516
[HINON]
[HINON]
Members
8,441 posts
12,390 battles
13 minutes ago, JAKeller said:

Target selection appears to be (in order of priority):

1) Lowest HP

2) Closest

3) Most dangerous to the bot (i.e. capable of causing the most damage)

i can assure you that, by experience, 2 and 3 are wrong, ive literally sailed past a bot so close the crews could high 5 and it still was focused on a ship probably on the other side of the map, same goes for being the most dangerous

Edited by tcbaker777
  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3
[SOUS]
Members
9 posts
4,281 battles

@_cthulhu_ @JAKeller  thank you for answer. And it does make sense. But if then they should make Radio act like it does in Randoms.... if we are radioed we should know. RNG is RNG. and I don't mind "smarter" bots. But the idea that the AI is allowed to see where were are at all times, that seems like that should be changed. Cause that is nothing like how random games start. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
877 posts
6,656 battles
3 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

i can assure you that, by experience, 2 and 3 are wrong, ive literally sailed past a bot so close the crews could high 5 and it still was focused on a ship probably on the other side of the map, same goes for being the most dangerous

I for one have seen 2 and 3 in action.  It's possible there are other selection rules (maybe a dice roll for switching targets if already engaged?).  I'm just basing this on reverse-engineering the bot AI from observations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SuperTest Coordinator, Beta Testers
6,663 posts
12,133 battles

Bot AI was changed from focusing lowest HP a few years back because it would always focus on destroying DDs. Bots seem to re-evaluate targets constantly, and may swap between two targets inefficiently in certain scenarios. This is most visible when fighting a Yamato. You may see the Yamato turn its guns towards a teammate and fire, then back towards you, then back towards your teammate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
393
[PROJX]
Beta Testers
793 posts
4,957 battles

Bot CVs always know where you are. I've seen them drop a fighter squad right on top of my DD before they even spot me. 

As far as target priorities, I think it has something to do with your class, with it being

CV>>>DD>CA>BB

From highest to lowest 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
934
[CO-OP]
Members
2,347 posts
26,854 battles
24 minutes ago, JAKeller said:

Target selection appears to be

1) Lowest HP

2) Closest

3) Most dangerous to the bot (i.e. capable of causing the most damage)

 

11 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

i can assure you that, by expericence, 2 and 3 are wrong, ive literally sailed past a bot so close the crews could high 5 and it still was focused on a ship probably on the other side of the map, same goes for being the most dangerous

@tcbaker777 has it right.  Proximity does not seem to be a high priority.  Initially, bots will focus fire on the first ship detected, every ship that can fire on that ship will fire on that ship.  Also DDs in smoke are largely ignored, until they are detected.  Proximity of the destroyer and danger are largely ignored.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
877 posts
6,656 battles
5 minutes ago, Furrocka said:

@_cthulhu_ @JAKeller  thank you for answer. And it does make sense. But if then they should make Radio act like it does in Randoms.... if we are radioed we should know. RNG is RNG. and I don't mind "smarter" bots. But the idea that the AI is allowed to see where were are at all times, that seems like that should be changed. Cause that is nothing like how random games start. 

 

Game AI has traditionally used 2 primary methods for allowing AI to compete with humans (who tend to think strategically rather than tactically): 1) Add more resources that the AI can use, 2) Provide the AI with extra knowledge.  This is starting to change in an era of neural networked AIs (i.e. ones that learn from failing ...err...experience), but those are not only harder to write, but they also take a lot longer to train, which is less likely in an online game.

It must be remembered that AI is basically a difference engine; it must have boundaries to function properly and make good decisions.  That's one reason why it does so well in highly structured games (e.g. Chess) and not so well in situations where there are a lot of random variables (e.g. FPS when humans are involved doing illogical things), though that can offset by providing the AI with additional special powers the humans don't have.

As was mentioned above, since the bots (at their higher levels) can/do track you and start firing as soon as they can see you, it's good practice for surviving.  Human players won't generally punish you for making a mistake as thoroughly as the bots will.  I always have a good laugh at the Randoms (and some Ranked) players who come into Coop expecting to be gods and get their keesters handed to them by the bots and leave screaming how fixed it is.  (or that the rest of us did something wrong because we didn't supposedly support them)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
877 posts
6,656 battles
2 minutes ago, HamptonRoads said:

 

@tcbaker777 has it right.  Proximity does not seem to be a high priority.  Initially, bots will focus fire on the first ship detected, every ship that can fire on that ship will fire on that ship.  Also DDs in smoke are largely ignored, until they are detected.  Proximity of the destroyer and danger are largely ignored.

Speak not with such conviction until you've seen the code (which I haven't either).  We're all just speculating right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
326
[-TCO-]
[-TCO-]
Members
651 posts
5,732 battles

Main thing to remember is that the bots ALWAYS know where you are. They will sometimes maneuver and even lay guns based on this but they will only fire once you become 'detected'. You may be in smoke, out of detection range or out of line of sight but your location is known by every bot on the map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
340
[SIMP]
Members
1,376 posts
11,495 battles
49 minutes ago, JAKeller said:

Not entirely.  The bot captains' skill sets are based on 3 levels: Basic, Experienced, and Expert.  I don't know for certain, but I'd guess that Basic = 7 pts, Experienced = 12 pts, and Expert = 19 pts.

That is all fine in theory.

In practice, what is the least time / money consuming way to implement the solution - give them all or a set based on ship tier.

For example, I was a T6 BB in a T8 battle, I was the only ship on one side of a bot Mass at 7km, no Secondaries were firing. When I was 3-4km away Secondaries started.

There are 2 explanations in my reckoning, the bot has complete control of every gun on the ship and decided to not fire secondaries at me or it had the manual secondaries skill and choose not to use them until I got close.

They can also break them by tier / type and just use them but really just give all is pretty simple.

 

Edited by _cthulhu_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,268
[A-D-F]
Beta Testers
3,310 posts
9,950 battles
1 hour ago, JAKeller said:

Target selection appears to be (in order of priority):

1) Lowest HP

2) Closest

3) Most dangerous to the bot (i.e. capable of causing the most damage)

Any of those selection are not always the case for these bots, often times they ignore all of those entirely including lowest HP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
510
[NEMO]
Members
829 posts
3,015 battles

I think bots are pre programmed to hunt Destroyers then Cruisers, then Battleships and then carriers.....you thing being hunted by bots is fun, wait until you sink one and turn pink for it LOL or worse, you sink one THEN he fires torpedoes at you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
803
[LOU1]
Members
4,234 posts
12,578 battles

A technique I have used for years, that even works with DDs, is to turn away from a bot ship and stop firing.  After a short time they loose interest.  In my  mind, I think of it as becoming non aggressive and it is a pretty good baiting technique.  There are times when I have been able to pass a bot ship without getting fired on by not firing at it.  Oddly, I have noticed their guns will be tracking me and sometimes they do open fire first.  It is difficult to have trigger discipline in that situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
187
[CWM]
Members
614 posts
6,744 battles

You can have fun with this if it sets up right. 
 

I was on Neighbors map and the only DD on the team. I decided to go to the A cap. The cap you go to if you want miss out on the rest of the battle in randoms usually. 
 

The entire red team was chasing me. Not some of them, all of them. What pissed me off is not one single human player was able to kill one of those bots as I lead them on this merry chase. 
 

Still it was a sight to behold seeing every single red ship around the A cap like I was some escaped convict in the movie fugitive. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,427
[RLGN]
Members
15,194 posts
26,846 battles
1 hour ago, JAKeller said:

3) Most dangerous to the bot (i.e. capable of causing the most damage)

:Smile_veryhappy:

Oh... That must be why they ignore players (often two or more,) kicking their digital teeth in at less than 5k, and instead shoot at the player who is running away on the other side of a map, (usually 10k plus.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,427
[RLGN]
Members
15,194 posts
26,846 battles
24 minutes ago, Cpt_Snafu_Idgaf said:

You can have fun with this if it sets up right.

I was on Neighbors map and the only DD on the team. I decided to go to the A cap. The cap you go to if you want miss out on the rest of the battle in randoms usually.

The entire red team was chasing me. Not some of them, all of them. What pissed me off is not one single human player was able to kill one of those bots as I lead them on this merry chase.

Still it was a sight to behold seeing every single red ship around the A cap like I was some escaped convict in the movie fugitive. 

What hacks me off the most in this situation, (getting chased by all the bots; often, but not always as the only human player,) is actually managing to stay alive and kill the bots chasing you, but then not having enough time to turn the caps and pull out a win.

Managed to do so twice in a Hawkins last night... but still lost in one battle because; yay... all my shells hit all around that bot DD, except actually on it; and by the time I finally managed to get a clear shot again and kill it, (bot CV still left,) there was not time to turn the caps and stop the points.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
506
[-TRM-]
[-TRM-]
Members
1,806 posts
46 minutes ago, ExploratorOne said:

A technique I have used for years, that even works with DDs, is to turn away from a bot ship and stop firing.  After a short time they loose interest.  In my  mind, I think of it as becoming non aggressive and it is a pretty good baiting technique.  There are times when I have been able to pass a bot ship without getting fired on by not firing at it.  Oddly, I have noticed their guns will be tracking me and sometimes they do open fire first.  It is difficult to have trigger discipline in that situation.

There are times I quit firing. Almost every time the bot does not continue working on me and shift to something else. Having to withhold fire takes a little discipline and a sense of timing. If it worked then I start my torp run against the enemy bot with the intention of deleting it I need to be a certain distance to make it happen. Usually when I get close the bot secondaries open up.. It takes time for that to become damaging and by then I hope it's deleted.

Ive been gaming online since it started and am convinced that the server knows where you are at all times in Wows when I swing far flank to get past against their CV... the closest bot always tries to get me visually detected halfway through the needle's thread. If I am lucky it will be fired on by my team and forced to honor that threat ignoring me.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×