Kii versus Hizen?

[WM1957]

In a close quarters brawl between Kii and Hizen, which do you think would be better, against each other, or other ships. I like the Kii with it's 10 410mm guns and torps.

[dEsTurbed1]

1 hour ago, WM1957 said:

In a close quarters brawl between Kii and Hizen, which do you think would be better, against each other, or other ships. I like the Kii with it's 10 410mm guns and torps.

kii doesn't have same turtleback armor of Amagi.

Not a good brawler. 

[WM1957]

7 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

kii doesn't have same turtleback armor of Amagi.

Not a good brawler. 

 

would you take Amagi over the Hizen?

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 vs. 1 ??
Or as part of a Co-op or Random battle team?

[SkaerKrow]

Hizen isn't finalized. 

[Crucis]

46 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

kii doesn't have same turtleback armor of Amagi.

Not a good brawler. 

Which kind of stinks because I thought that the Devs wanted the players to see the Kii as somewhat of a brawling BB, which is of course counter to the normal IJN BB meta.  It seems like WG occasionally likes producing BBs that go against the normal meta for a navy's BBs.  Also, having the Kii be just another sniping IJN BB sort of makes her torpedoes rather redundant.   Right now, the Kii just feels sort of like an imperfect Amagi clone, when she could have been a much more interesting premium.

 

[Warped_1]

18 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Right now, the Kii just feels sort of like an imperfect Amagi clone, when she could have been a much more interesting premium

Ehh, I enjoy playing Kii much more then Amagi.  The little bit of spice is nice.   Her AA more relevant, auto DD alarm in form of secondaries, and her torps surprise people.

[Crucis]

9 minutes ago, Warped_1 said:

Ehh, I enjoy playing Kii much more then Amagi.  The little bit of spice is nice.   Her AA more relevant, auto DD alarm in form of secondaries, and her torps surprise people.

I'm not saying that she's a bad ship.  I just wish that she was a little more of a meta-breaking secondary build worthy brawler.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

9 minutes ago, Warped_1 said:

Ehh, I enjoy playing Kii much more then Amagi.  The little bit of spice is nice.   Her AA more relevant, auto DD alarm in form of secondaries, and her torps surprise people.

Even in the RTS CV days with a superior AA system, Amagi's AA was still garbage.  I remember I'd play a CV in that era, I'd see an Amagi, that was pretty much an "All You Can Eat Buffet" right there.  Her air defense would be worse now.

With the long hull and tendency for IJN BBs to be bad on turns, terrible AA, she was an easy target for airstrikes.  Only thing that saved her was her good TDS.

[Crucis]

Sorry if this is a little OT, but I'd love to know when were going to see a Tosa in the game.  The Tosa  class is a legit design that had hulls laid down before being cancelled due to the Washington naval treaty.  And it's a modern enough ship to warrant being either a tier 7 or 8 premium.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

1 minute ago, Crucis said:

Sorry if this is a little OT, but I'd love to know when were going to see a Tosa in the game.  The Tosa  class is a legit design that had hulls laid down before being cancelled due to the Washington naval treaty.  And it's a modern enough ship to warrant being either a tier 7 or 8 premium.

Who knows, the Germans got a FULL CARRIER LINE now when they never completed one, nor operated one with an air group, so anything is possible... Including the Royal Mongolian Battle Fleet complete with Battleships and Carriers.

[Tekina_]

Do we even know what Hizen's armor profile looks like yet? It's kind of hard to say without knowing something like that. Never mind that it hasn't been finalized and there are numerous soft stats that could push it either way. 

[Warped_1]

7 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Amagi's AA was still garbage.

The point is Kii has not garbage AA, as compared to Amagi.  Strapping a couple Akizukis to the side is an improvement. 

[tfcas119]

1: We don't know what Hizen's armor looks like (but if I were to guess it'd be similiar to Izumo's 356mm with a Great Value turtleback, but the belt would be slightly thinner to compensate for the heavier broadside)

2: Kii has a thinner belt than Amagi, with a worse turtleback, so unlike Amagi, can get citadelled at close range

3: Kii has torps, but has to go near full broadside to use them, and doesn't have the alpha of Tirpitz or Odin to make a knockout punch

Chances are, if Kii doesn't/cannot hit torps, whoever gets the broadside and pulls the trigger first wins. If Kii can get torps off, then it probably be a MAD result.

[Tingent]

wth is a Hizen?

[dEsTurbed1]

2 hours ago, WM1957 said:

 

would you take Amagi over the Hizen?

Hard to say since we don't know Hizen armor scheme.

Amagi may have better ROF...

Hizen secondaries????

[dEsTurbed1]

2 hours ago, WM1957 said:

 

would you take Amagi over the Hizen?

Yes.

40 sec turret rotation and weak secondaries. 

[WM1957]

9 hours ago, Crucis said:

Sorry if this is a little OT, but I'd love to know when were going to see a Tosa in the game.  The Tosa  class is a legit design that had hulls laid down before being cancelled due to the Washington naval treaty.  And it's a modern enough ship to warrant being either a tier 7 or 8 premium.

Tosa would be a perfect fit as a T7 Premium since we already have Amagi and Kii at T8. Tosa would be an upgrade from Nagato. Ise could also be a T6 premium as an upgraded Fuso with both Battleship and Hybrid carrier forms available.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

8 hours ago, Tingent said:

wth is a Hizen?

A Hizen is something WG is playing with at the moment that can be thought of as four Izumo turrets in an AB-XY configuration on something midway between a Yamato and Izumo hull. It's one of the design studies on the road to the Yamato, probably just before they decided to commit to the 460mm gun.

9 hours ago, Crucis said:

Sorry if this is a little OT, but I'd love to know when were going to see a Tosa in the game.  The Tosa  class is a legit design that had hulls laid down before being cancelled due to the Washington naval treaty.  And it's a modern enough ship to warrant being either a tier 7 or 8 premium.

IIRC Tosa herself was far enough along to go to sea as a target ship, which is further than the Amagi got before the Kanto earthquake wrecked her hull on the slips.

[Crucis]

1 hour ago, WM1957 said:

Tosa would be a perfect fit as a T7 Premium since we already have Amagi and Kii at T8. Tosa would be an upgrade from Nagato. Ise could also be a T6 premium as an upgraded Fuso with both Battleship and Hybrid carrier forms available.

Something else that the devs could do, though it'd be somewhat precedent setting would be to make the Tosa into a regular tech tree ship at tier 8 and just have it be an alternate choice to the Amagi and also have it link to the Izumo at tier 9.  

As for the Ise, I just don't see the hybrid as viable under the rework mechanics.   You can play her as a BB or as a CV, but not both at  the same time, which seems to me to make her rather inferior.  If one was looking for a more viable Ise, I could see one of two alternatives.

1. Make her a tier 5 premium with the Ise in her WW1 form.

2. Make her a tier 6 premium with the Ise in a refitted form, with a refit similar to the Fuso's refit.

The thing to remember about the Ise class is that they were a (very) slightly upgraded design over the Fuso.  But the upgrades were so minor that I doubt that they really show up in her stats.  The Ises were little more than a second pair of Fusos.

Another thought.  They could make the Ise into a tier 6 tech tree ship and the start of a second IJN BB line.  They'd have to come up with something for tier 7.  Use the Tosa at tier 8.  And then come up with tier 9 and 10 designs.  For what it's worth, there's a design that the IJN called the "Number 13" and was intended as the follow on to the Kii class.

[Crucis]

1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

 

IIRC Tosa herself was far enough along to go to sea as a target ship, which is further than the Amagi got before the Kanto earthquake wrecked her hull on the slips.

One of the Tosas was turned into the Kaga, which is the closest thing to a Tosa in the game currently.

[Dr_Venture]

Kii may become a decent brawler once the BB secondaries go in + captain skill rework. 

Remember ALOT of ships are going to get a lot better, just some will be more focused. Wargaming wants ships to get closer now vs sniping. 

[HazeGrayUnderway]

WG's DevBlog announcement where Hizen was included as one of the new ships announced.

"One of the "Super Battleship" project variants (project A-140-J3), preliminary to the creation of the Yamato-class battleships. The main armament of the ship is twelve 410 mm guns in four turrets. Such a number of guns, uncharacteristic for Japanese high-tier battleships, allows the ship to deal a significant amount of damage."

Copy & Paste of the stats from the link above:

 

Hit points – 80,700. Plating - 32 mm.

Main battery - 4x3 410 mm. Firing range - 21.1 km.
Maximum HE shell damage – 6,500. Chance to cause fire – 30%. HE initial velocity - 834 m/s. Maximum AP shell damage - 12,750. AP initial velocity - 834 m/s.
Reload time - 30.0 s. 180 degree turn time - 40.0 s. Maximum dispersion - 236 m. Sigma – 1.7.

Secondary Armament:
3x3 155.0 mm, range - 7.0 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 2,600. Chance to cause fire – 10%. HE initial velocity - 925 m/s
8x2 127.0 mm, range - 7.0 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 2,100. Chance to cause fire – 8%. HE initial velocity - 725 m/s

AA defense: 12x3 25.0 mm, 24x2 25.0 mm, 18x1 25.0 mm, 8x2 127.0 mm.
AA defense short-range: continuous damage per second - 435, hit probability - 85 %, action zone 0.1-2.5 km;
AA defense long-range: сontinuous damage per second - 150, hit probability - 75 %, action zone 0.1-5.8 km;
Number of explosions in a salvo - 5, damage within an explosion - 1,540, action zone 3.5 - 5.8 km.

Maximum speed - 28.2 kt. Turning circle radius - 880 m. Rudder shift time – 17.1 s. Surface detectability – 16.4 km. Air detectability – 12.2 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 15.9 km.

Available consumables:
Slot 1 - Damage Control Party
Slot 2 - Repair Party
Slot 3 - Fighter/Spotting Aircraft

 

Fitting Tool entry for fully researched Izumo from the same tier.  Port shot of Izumo below.

An April 2018 page where someone talks about the long history of how the IJN wound up with the Yamato-class.  Hizen is supposed to be WG's take on one of the earlier proposals before the IJN went hardcore with 460mm.

"The A-140J3 had four triple 41cm turrets on a standard displacement of 58.400 tons."

"The 33% increase in firepower meant that she was comparable to the eight 46cm gunned bigger cousins but the armor lacked somewhat as it was against the smaller caliber between 20-30km (so both the inner and the outer edge were pushed outwards which indicates a similar, probably less sloped  belt but a somewhat heavier deck. The 252m long vessel would have weighed in at 58.400 tons standard and it would have been capable of 28 knots with J2’s propulsion system. Beam was back up at 38.9m, substantially wider compared to J0."

[Dr_Venture]

With that hull, I bet she has the Yammy cheek....

[HazeGrayUnderway]

2 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

With that hull, I bet she has the Yammy cheek....

I doubt it will because Yamato-class Citadels are the way they are because of the 460mm Main Battery.  Still, Izumo has to be played carefully and is prone herself to getting blapped if the player has made a mistake and gets punished.  My bet is Hizen will be Izumo-like in armor and Citadel protection.